QUESTIONS for the AVID READER Part V

New month, new season



QUESTION 34: Working

Today is Labour Day in Canada, prompting this question:

Studs Terkel and E P Thompson wrote two of the best known classics on work. What are the best titles on working, fiction or nonfiction in your mind, no matter how you define work? Why do they stand out for you?

the one that started it all the jungle read it in HS, should be read by all people who think we have too many regulations and that workers dont need a living wage

the one that started it all the jungle read it in HS, should be read by all people who think we have too many regulations and for those who have forgotten why we have them

>1 SassyLassy: Oh, a good one! I have a real weakness for workplace literature. There’s a huge amount of good stuff out there, and a lot of it is underappreciated, so it’s difficult to know where to start stop…

— Obvious classic (other than those already mentioned above): The ragged-trousered philanthropists, a socialist epic about house-painters in late-Victorian England and the struggle to survive.
— Germinal: Zola doesn’t just show us the terrible conditions miners had to work in, but extends the picture to the way that impacts their families, and the way the system clamps down on any effort to improve things. (See also Sons and lovers for a slightly less political British take on the same industry.)
— Het bureau: a massive seven-volume novel by J J Voskuil (I’m currently up to volume 5) that takes us, paperclip by paperclip, through the working life of someone in a government social science research institute, analysing the way office life creates strangely limited relationships between people who spend many hours of their lives together but never quite get to know each other. Sadly still only available in Dutch and German.
— Independent people: by contrast, this is a novel about a one-person workplace, where the main struggle is between the worker and his environment.
— Spur der Steine Erik Neutsch’s massive novel set on a big industrial building site in East Germany in the 1950s, picking up a lot of interesting themes about work and the way it is organised. Also a very interesting film. There are lots of other good East German workplace novels, the system obviously encouraged them. Christa Wolf’s Divided heaven is one that’s available in English. Rummelplatz by Werner Bräunig isn’t (as far as I know), but it’s a very interesting novel set in the uranium mines of the Wismut organisation.
— Railwaywomen, a fascinating (non-fiction) study of the “invisible” history of women’s work in a traditionally male-dominated industry. This was originally self-published, because Wojttczak had trouble getting anyone to take her project seriously, but it had a big impact once people actually got to read the book.
— The new housekeeping by Christine Frederick. Dating from 1913, this was one of the first attempts to treat the work of women in the home seriously as a form of industrial labour, and to analyse what they did and look at ways to make it less wasteful of time and effort. Obviously early 20th century “time and motion” is no longer the preferred way to analyse work, and a lot of the solutions Frederick comes up with might look bizarre from our perspective, but the point is that she did it at all.

OK, I’ll stop, for now…

How to win Friends and Influence People Dale Carnegie

This book changed my life - I was given this book to read as part of a training course. I thought it was so wretched that I promptly resigned and got another job.

>1 SassyLassy: The first books that I can bring to mind on this topic have to do with farming life and work. The two examples I can think of offhand are Väinö Linna's brilliant Under the North Star trilogy following several generations of a Finnish farming family, and Growth of the Soil by Knut Hamsun.

I've gone back over my reading lists since the beginning of my LT membership (2008) and I don't come up with many books specifically about the sort of work that I think we generally think of in conversations like this. That is, working in offices or factories or mines or hospitals or schools. I did come up with the following list of works which strike me as books either wholly or significantly about work, mostly in other ways:

Janesville: An American Story by Amy Goldstein. This excellent non-fiction book is about work, as it chronicles what happened to the workers of Janesville, Wisconsin, and to the town as a whole, when their GM plant closed.

The Boys of Summer by Roger Kahn. This is a very well-known and excellent memoir about the Brooklyn Dodgers team that finally won a World Series. Kahn provides portraits of many of the best-known players of that team, and also offers a personal memoir about his own experiences during that summer and beforehand. Through it all, Kahn offers a perspective of the job of being a professional athlete, including the pressure, the working conditions and the interactions with both employer and customer (i.e., the fans), and, as well, the job of being a sportswriter.

Ar'n't I a Woman? Female Slaves in the Plantation South by Deborah Gray White.

A Promised Land by Barack Obama. Among many other elements to this memoir, Obama provides a look at the hard work of being president, a very tough job that I wouldn't want.

Elderhood: Redefining Aging, Transforming Medicine, Reimagining Life by Louise Aronson. Along the way in her memoir/study of the American medical establishment's attitudes about medical care for older people, Aronson gives us a close look into the everyday life and struggles of the geriatrician.

I'm sure that I've read books about mine work that I'm not remembering offhand, but as I recall it, Orwell's The Road to Wigan Pier has some in-depth descriptions thereof.

Here are some books that provide insight into the idea of soldiering as work:
Grunt: the Curious Science of Humans at War by Mary Roach. Roach's usual humorous yet thorough and thought-provoking writing gives us an idea of the issues that modern day soldiers have to deal with, above and beyond actual combat.

Three Soldiers by John Dos Passos. There is very little actual fighting in this novel about military life in the U.S. Army during World War One. Just the day to day life, the boredom and the oppressive nature of the military command.

One Very Hot Day by David Halberstam. Halberstram, a famed historian of course, offered us this short novel, again relatively light in actual combat scenes, that provides a look into the conditions of the employees of the U.S. Army, i.e., the soldiers and officers.

>5 baswood: Hahaha! sounds like the time the new principal decided to make us read who moved my cheese* at our first meeting of the year. I didn't resign, just ignored it, and by the end of the year it was him who had to leave!

* didn't realize there was a spoof on it called who stole my cheese which I will now have to read

>4 thorold: You've certainly hit on some of my all time favourites here: The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists (my review started with "Every once in a while you come upon a book that makes you wonder "where has this been all my life?"), Germinal of course, and Independent People which left images which haunted me for months. I like the sound of the others you mention too.

>5 baswood: Too funny, but I can definitely see how that could happen!

>7 rocketjk: Any kind of work counts here. When I went looking for an image, it was interesting that they seemed to divide into either traditional manual labour work, or sitting in front of a computer work.

Thinking of books not already mentioned, one I came up with José Saramango's All the Names. The protagonist worked in a paper based system, but it still is a wonderful view of any mind numbing clerical function, and how it can go wrong.

Not how many people think of it, but Moby Dick is an excellent look at whaling and whalers, with a bit of obsession thrown in to keep the story going.

>7 rocketjk: mentioned Väinö Linna and that made me think of Unknown Soldiers, men for whom war was a job to be endured and survived if at all possible, rather than an ideological struggle.

A lesser known book, but well worth the read for its descriptions of the actual work and the class system behind it, is Toby Musgrave's The Head Gardeners: Forgotten Heroes of Horticulture. These men had knowledge and experience that far exceeded anything most of their employers could imagine, yet they had to walk a narrow line between using that knowledge and "knowing their place" when it came to dealing with those same employers. Many of the advances in plant science up to the late nineteenth century came from them.

The condition of the working class in England, 1845, Friedrich Engels -- possibly the most important inspiration for Marx and a still valid description of how capitalism treats workers.

Bullshit jobs, 2013, David Graeber -- bullshit society breeds bullshit everything. But can the comfy people be shamed out of their complacency?

Also, of course, there's Nickel and Dimed: On (Not) Getting By in America by Barbara Ehrenreich.

I seem to remember some controversey over that book, that she didnt work a long time at any of the jobs to know much.. But I found the book matches my images of what the work entails esp as the daughter of a deli manager. not fun

for a book about the work of teachers, one of the best is up the down stair case about a new teacher in a inner city HS. She describes lots of rules, requirments, general bs get in the way of teaching students as individuls. alot of the garbage admins dish out is pretty much the same: usually involving not supporting the teach . Remembering some of the scenes, it has only gotten worse. She had to wear severl hats back then: teacher counselor nurse , but now the amount of hats we wear is untenable, the load heavier, we barely have time to teach.And since COVID the disrespect that people have for teachers is high which of course kids can feel the same way. Am glad I am not teaching now tho I miss the kids. Its just scary out there

Two Years Before the Mast was _fascinating_ about sailing and trading in the age of wooden ships - and about California history too, though that's outside this subject.

>14 jjmcgaffey: I’ve been curious about this for years. Hmm.

>13 cindydavid4: It's certainly true that Ehrenreich didn't work for long at any of the jobs she used to research Nickel and Dimed. While I don't remember if she addressed that issue, she did mention that she "cheated" in that she kept a working car (and I believe at one point had to have it repaired), and that she sought out medical care immediately when she had a major dental emergency. And she pointed out that either of these situations would have been catastrophic for the barely-getting-by workers she was writing about.

The same "small sample" charge can (and probably will) be brought against Emily Guendelsberger for On the Clock.

But the point, for me, is that investigative journalists shouldn't have to devote years to "undercover" research in order to get a general overview of the topic. Would WalMart have started scheduling most of its workers 40-hour weeks if Ehrenreich had worked there longer? Would the chances of getting and keeping secure housing change for a person who works for Merry Maids have improved if Ehrenreich had spent years working for that agency? How long should Guendelsberger have stayed at the call center before she was satisfied that their wage-theft practices weren't going to change?

>11 LolaWalser: I was hoping someone would mention that, and my money was on you. Slightly off topic, but not much, the Engels also makes me think of Henry Mayhew and Jacob Riis.

>12 rocketjk: That's had good reviews, should look for it. >16 LyndaInOregon: Interesting points on the research.

>14 jjmcgaffey: That was a great book, and there was a lot of work involved.

QUESTION 35: Backing up Backups

LT has had a rough time this past fortnight with cyber attacks.

Is LT your backup for titles, reviews, dates etc, or do you have multiple ways and places to document your reading/music/film life?

If so, what are they? How do you keep them all in synch?

Well, before LT i had a piece of paper, which I eventually converted to a much more sterile word document. Later i added an excel sheet, which i still maintain. Then i found LT. I’m on other sites, but these are the only places I’m thorough and each has different info. So i need them all. 🙂

Is LT your backup for titles, reviews, dates etc, or do you have multiple ways and places to document your reading/music/film life?

Excellent question.

I started using the Access database as a reading journal in 2000. I had just begun a job that required database skills, and my employer paid for a basic course, then suggested that if we really wanted to get good at the program, we should get a personal copy and install it on our private computer, and then "play" with it, using information and data that would be useful to us, personally. I started cataloguing my reading on one database and my music library on another. It was an ... educational ... experience! At least, when I had a catastrophic data loss, it was not something that would cost my company thousands of staff-hours to reproduce! (And I did have a couple of such losses!) I quickly learned what not to do when working with live data.

By the time I found LT, I already had 20+ years of reading journal information on my PC. Access has some advantages (ways to manipulate the data), and LT has others (more flexibility in the way information is entered), so for the present, I'm maintaining both sources.

Keeping them synchronized can be a problem. If there's a way to mate the two systems and enter information simultaneously, I haven't found it yet. So I enter them separately, sometimes cutting & pasting when working with a lot of text, other times just keying in the information. It only takes me two or three minutes to enter a title and relevant info into Access. LT takes a little longer, because that's where the longer, more detailed reviews go.

>18 SassyLassy: For the last few years - reading dates and reviews are posted on both LT and GR - most of my non-LT friends prefer GR so I do not mind the copying that much. If both die at the same time, there are probably more important things than my reviews out there that had been lost...

For the years before that - I have a few reviews here and a lot of dates and I had been thinking on copying them over to GR but... never seem to be getting to it.

I've played with the idea of keeping a third catalog, just for the books I own (when I get around to getting them cataloged anyway), probably with Collectorz (they have both an online and offline catalog) or even going old style with pen and paper or Google Sheets or something but... we shall see.

Q35: LT is the only social media location that I regularly use these days. It was always the only online site I used for talking about and cataloguing books.

I used to be relatively active on a Facebook group called Jazz Vinyl Lovers, whereon members talk about the jazz LPs they're listening to and provide photos of the album covers. The group often then gets good discussions going about this LP or that one.

I've also been intermittently active on Discogs, a site where members can catalog their LP and CD collections. It's also a major portal for people to buy and sell LPs and CDs, but I've never used it for that. During the darkest days of the Covid lockdown I spent a lot of time on the site gradually cataloging my LPs and getting lost in the weeds of the minutia like pressing plants and mastering labs per the information listed on the album covers but also in the letters, numbers and symbols etched or stamped into the dead wax (that otherwise blank section found on each side between the label and the record grooves). Eventually I grew tired of the all the detail work and also how unfriendly a minority of the members there can be. Anyway, I have about 5,000 LPs, I think, and I got about 20 percent of them catalogued.

But I've had to suspend activity on both the Facebook group and on Discogs due to the simple logistical consideration that I am now in New York City and my records are still in California.

>16 LyndaInOregon: I totally agree

i keep my book list in a reading journal. this includes dates titles authors comments ratings. Reviews are on my word office. thats about all the book data I keep.on day ill catch up and pur more stuff on my profil so if LT crashes id be sad, but I have a back up (and hopefully we stay healthy and bug free!)

that being said Id be lost at sea without my viral book buddies here., it would be fun to share info but not sure how many wiukd want to (Id think twice)so dont go anywhere!

>17 SassyLassy:

😄

>18 SassyLassy:

Q#35

I keep a paper record of books I finish and movies I see but if LT disappeared so would my catalogue and whatever changes to it were captured on
LT... I did export it several times in the past, and even printed out a version once or twice, but since I tinker with it all the time, to say nothing of the never-ending additions, it feels pointless...

Given how "weird" my collection is (lots of not-English books, lots of old books) I don't bother thinking about backups on other sites as it seems this would at a minimum demand a replication of effort I put into LT... if not be even more of a hassle.

Incidentally, speaking of other sites, someone told me about this new kid on the block:

https://www.thestorygraph.com/

Anyone has some experience with it?

>18 SassyLassy: Q35: Backing up Backups

I have exported my catalog once or twice over the last 15 years, but that's it. It is my one and only record of my books and reading, so if it were to go, well... there would be no joy in Mudville. After reading your question, I went to my review page and saved the 511 reviews as a PDF, but the formatting was horrid, so I copy and pasted it into an LibreOffice doc. So thanks for the prompt. But it started me thinking that even more important to me than my reviews (which as I forget more are becoming more important) are the conversations I've had with all of you. I guess I should think about saving my threads in order to capture some of that. As for the catalog itself, it's nice to have, but I could recreate it, whereas the conversations are irreplaceable.

I don’t think LT is about to lose any of our data, despite all the malicious attacks. They seem to follow pretty rigorous protocols for backups of user data. But still, it’s a commercial enterprise and won’t necessarily be here for ever. I try to export my data every three months or so and archive it for myself.
I’ve used various other tools for keeping track of my reading, so there has always been a certain amount of redundancy, but my reviews are probably more important to me long-term than the stats, which are just for fun really. I’m moving towards keeping them in Obsidian, the note taking app I use for my personal diary and other stuff like that. It stores data locally and in a plain text format, so I’m not tied in to the survival of the app.
I used to use other catalogueing tools for my LP and CD collection, but I don’t bother much about that anymore. The subtle temptations of music streaming…
My diary is the place for thoughts about the films, exhibitions and concerts I go to. No need for stats and complications, and text search is usually enough to answer questions about when and where I last heard a particular conductor or soloist. And the web has an astonishing ability to tell you who was in an opera production you saw forty years ago. No need to store every detail myself.

>25 labfs39: with as much as we post, I think saving all those conversations would be impossible. On another long ago online site,one of our members passed away and we wanted to make a memorial for the family; Much smaller than here, we were able to get a good amount but it did take a while.I think I remember who I coversed with on a daily basis, and that will be enough for me (maybe)

>26 thorold: The subtle temptations of music streaming…

Warning: Subject Derail Ahead!
I look at our CD collection, which includes lots of discs burned from old vinyl and cassettes, and represents about 70 years of collecting (because some of those LPs were from the 1950s...) and am filled with anticipatory grief due to the certainty that the CD medium is going to go the way of the wind-up Victrola.

Streaming is a lovely idea, but is there a streaming service out there that specializes in 1950s Afro-Cuban jazz? Novelty songs of the 1960s? Sound tracks of obscure Broadway musicals? And how, if I digitize our collection and dump it onto a thumb drive, do I find (for instance) Buddy Fites' recording of Evil Ways, or even remember that I have it if I don't happen to see the CD when I'm looking through the collection?

We now return you to the original thread...

>28 LyndaInOregon: Yeah, I'm always surprised when a streaming service has _any_ filk (SF folk music) - I have more than any service I've found yet, and my collection isn't all that big (compared to other filkers). I have digitized it, though, because I have the opposite problem - if the music is only on CDs, I won't remember to go look through them so I won't listen to anything but the most basic. I rip and listen through Mediamonkey which has very good search and decent tagging (actually it has excellent tagging but that requires me to actually tag the music...). The two smart playlists I listen to most often are Highly Rated songs (4 stars and above), and Unrated (I haven't given it a rating yet). Between the two of those, I get favorite songs and new songs (I just have to remember to rate the new ones...which is hard to do when I'm listening in the car, my most frequent method).

Re: the actual question...
I do have my Book Stats spreadsheets, one for each year since I started tracking that way. They have the books I've read, with some (not all) of the info on them, my rating, and my review. That doesn't cover all the books I've read since I joined LT, let alone the ones before that; nor does it cover any of the books I have but haven't read yet. I have tried exporting from time to time but it's so limited...actually, I don't think I've tried the JSON export since shortly after it was added, I should see what that contains.

While I love the conversations I've had on LT, I don't think I'd be interested in archiving them. Too much...stuff.

But I had tried a dozen forms of cataloging before I found LT, none of which worked for me at all (generally, I'd be about 2/3rds done with one section (genre) of my library, and I'd already have made changes (discarded books, added books, moved them around...)). LT was fast enough at cataloging that I actually got everything in, and I've almost kept up (there's small piles of not-cataloged-yet that build up and then get knocked down and into LT). So my LT catalog is rather important to me.

Q35:

I go through phases of updating LT and GR, or updating only one, or trying to go back and fill in the gaps. So they're not perfect mirrors of each other, but I do have info on GR as well.

Beyond that, I have a spreadsheet that I've been keeping since 2017, and I've gone back and filled in data to 2013.

And finally, I use a reading app that tracks my sessions, time etc. called Bookly. I haven't put in any data from before I started using it, so it only covers the past couple of years. But on the other hand, in some ways it has the most detailed info about the actual reading since it includes quotes and notes and actual reading sessions.

I do not, however, write book comments anywhere but here on my threads, so those would be lost to eternity if LT disappeared.

LT is my main place. I used to update my books on GR and Babelio (the French answer to GR) fairly regularly, but I don't anymore. It's too much faff for not enough return. LT handles books in different languages much better than all the other tools I tried. Once or twice a year, I simply export all my entries since my last export, and use the file to update GR and Babelio. They're not going to have all my titles, but I'm not too bothered: LT is where I have accurate data.

I have started using Storygraph in 2023. I'll do it until December, just to see what my graphs and data look like for a full year, and then I'll stop, unless the criteria it uses are updated to make them more granular and comprehensive, or I discover some new use that makes it worthwhile. My impression is that the site is geared towards genre readers. If you're into non-fiction and literary fiction, your graphs are going to be very monochromatic. As it is, the "mood" of 2/3 of my books is "reflective" and "emotional", the "pace" is nearly always "slow" (46%) or medium (51%), page number is 78% under 300" (why do they only have 3 ranges: under 300, 303-499 and 500+?) LT's Charts and Graphs section is better, in my opinion. Obviously, YMMV. I haven't really tried the social media side of Storygraph. I know they do group reads, for example. The only thing I do that is not self-contained is enter the book I read for the Food and Lit Challenge in the relevant page, but I haven't seen that it leads to any kind of interaction.

I’ve been using storygraph since sometime after i stopped updating Goodreads (it just got to be too much work). I like that i can update my status on storygraph, and that it keeps some stats, and that no one seems to read reviews there, so i can post initial thoughts without feeling guilty about errors, misleading comments, or changing my mind. But its non-social.

I also use bookly, but only for paper and ebooks, not audio. I use it to track my reading time. It’s an odd obsession.

Side note - LT is the only place i have my unread books catalogued.

>27 cindydavid4: >28 LyndaInOregon:
I agree completely about the extra visual and tactile clues you get from physical media (and the smell of old record sleeves…), and in principle I’m sure you are right about the way streaming services don’t cover the fringes. But, disappointingly for my self-image, it turns out that my musical tastes are never quite obscure enough for that to be an issue. My CD collection seems to be covered about 99%, with only a couple of sampler discs and some things recorded privately by friends falling outside the boat. Even the LPs are mostly covered, and where they are not, there are plenty of equivalent or better recordings of the same repertoire available. Obviously the thing about “classical” music is that however small the audience is, enough of it has money to make it worth distributing recordings. And it takes forever for back catalogue stuff to go out of fashion.

>28 LyndaInOregon: same. I still have my folk dancing CDs from decades ago,all of my parents soundtrack albums, lots of casseste of folk music, and fav international music that I dont want to part with but hard to impossible to find streaming. Have a cd/cassettte player that I hope stays in good condition so I can still play them. Im really want a new stereo for my car, but the no longer make them with cassette players, so.....

>18 SassyLassy: Backups

My LT library is a mess, so not worth protecting. But I just read >25 labfs39: above and discovered that I need to back up my threads, like, right now! And I started doing that. Notability on my iPad does a decent job of converting the thread to pdf, in case anybody is interested. And I found out that I started having threads on CR in 2014, and started rereading them and feeling guilty about all the book recommendations that I never followed through on. Or the books that I meant to read almost 10 years ago and are still on the TBR...

I am very unreliable about logging my readings. LT was where I did that for a time, but as mentioned I no longer use the LT library, except when I need to create a milestone for a book that isn't in the database yet, or occasionally to wishlist a book. My current routine is to create a text note when I finish a book. I currently use the Notebooks app on my iPad (that's Notebooks with an s, Notebook is a different app). I title the note with the date and the keyword "livre" (2023-09-12 Livre) and write down the title, author, series name and number. I also copy any comment I wrote on my CR thread.

The reason for the text format and the naming convention is that the notes can then be imported in any app or read directly from the folder, and I can use the title as a sort criteria to keep them organized chronologically. iPad apps come and go, so this is important to me. I don't want to be stuck with unreadable files in a proprietary format. Many apps will export to pdf, but I feel that the .txt option is the safest and simplest. I've already migrated my notes from a previous app to Notebooks (the previous app used Evernote for backup/sync, so that wasn't as easy as text files, but I managed to import them into Notebooks after a while).

>31 Dilara86:, >32 dchaikin:

Thanks for the Storygraph feedback.

>28 LyndaInOregon:

I'm with you on the importance of "real" media, Lynda (at least to the individual...) I have cca 4000 CDs, LPs and even tapes, most of which I've catalogued on LT, and I'm still adding to it. I too regret and fear the total passing of such things (I have nightmares about even books!), BUT, that said, consider the resurrection of the gramophone disc, or "vinyl" in hip parlance. OK, yes, the downside is that they are ridiculously priced... still, it may be that a small minority of collectors will always be interested in hard copy. There are also CD collectors around, I've noticed young people priced out of the "vinyl" craze turning to CDs that can be had used very cheaply.

I don't like streaming for many reasons, but the worst, in terms of uploading a collection in the "clouds" somewhere, is the lack of reliably good formatting that respects the integrity of classical pieces. I know there are specialised software programs that address this but it's all a big faff and a hassle.

So, yeah. I'll be sticking to my "real" media as long as possible.

>28 LyndaInOregon: It is even worse that simply not having a lot of the non-standard content on streaming - they can pull any record out whenever they lose their permissions to use it (or something else like that) -- and that may even apply to records you had bought - not just the ones you get in a "All you can listen to" kind of services. Which is why I keep buying disks of the things I really really really like - an hope that they will still work when I get around to them in the future.

It's very interesting to read how other people log/catalogue their books and music. I use LT to log all the books that I read and the reviews that I share. I copy the reviews onto my computer. Of course I would not like to lose LT for its easy access to my library and reviews, but it would not be the 'end of the world' for me if they all suddenly disappeared. I feel the same way about the stuff on my computer because I only put it there for my own amusement. In my opinion life is too short to worry about backing everything up.

I use the app cdpedia for my music collection.

>28 LyndaInOregon: Mark me down as another who loves his physical music media, and LPs in particular. (And, yes, I find it annoying when the hipsters refer to LPs as "vinyls.") What you mention about the ability to browse your own physical collection as opposed to scrolling through file lists resonates with me very much. For me personally, there's also an emotional attachment to my LPs that comes from the fact that I've been assembling my collection since 8th grade (first LP purchased: Time Peace, the Rascals' Greatest Hits). I had to be dragged into CD world, and I have a few hundred, I guess, many of which I received as review copies from record labels and PR people, but I have been toying with downloading them all onto some sort of device and doing away with the physical CDs as a space saver.

Ted Goia, the excellent jazz historian, has a fine Substack column I subscribe to. He writes about music and the music/recording industry. He recently had a column about streaming services like Spotify who make more money promoting bland, generic listening channels and discouraging people from following individual artists. Hence, they make their search engines very difficult to use and refuse to provide information about individual albums (liner notes and musician credits). Those "channels" are less labor intensive to create and can be curated by AI. I use Apple Tunes, which seems to be marginally better.

>18 SassyLassy: Q35 - backups

I joined LT originally when I was thinking about creating a database or spreadsheet for my books and happened upon mention of LT in a blog. It's helpful to read my reviews or comments to refresh my memory, but if they disappeared I don't think I'd miss them terribly. I would miss Talk, but more for the interactivity, not for posterity. I keep track of reading because it's the social arrangement here; otherwise I don't much care, plenty of books I read pre-LT that I never recorded. If I saved threads, I doubt that I would ever read them. (I also have email going back to the 1990s, and handwritten letters going back to the 1970s. Not sure how much I need these either.) I wasn't alarmed when LT was inaccessible, assumed they'd figure it out. I have exported my books occasionally and did so just now, but I still have the actual books organized on shelves, so that'd be more of a nuisance loss than an emotional loss.

Q34 - Work
I'm in the middle of (my library hold ran out, so I'm waiting to get it back again) Sarah Jaffe's Work Won't Love You Back: How Devotion to Our Jobs Keeps Us Exploited, Exhausted, and Alone. The first half was a very solid labor history with a feminist slant, which I enjoyed. I've heard varying things about where she goes with the second half, so I'll let you know.

Q35 - Backup
I duplicate all my reviews on Goodreads, for that exact reason. Of course, if the entire internet goes down that won't help me, but if we're looking at a web-wide denial of service, I probably. have bigger problems than where my book reviews went. No backup for the friends, though, other than having a few of your emails and home addresses. So I guess I could just show up on your doorsteps and we could commiserate.

>41 lisapeet: I guess I could just show up on your doorsteps and we could commiserate.

Bring wine.

>42 LyndaInOregon: Will do.

Denial of service sort of leads into where I have been recently and why the next question is late.

Hurricane Lee, by this stage a post tropical storm (interesting fact - post tropical storms can still have hurricane force winds, which this one did, they just have different inputs, like cooler ocean temperatures, not tropical) blew through here this past weekend. That meant 53.5 hours without power. Being without power in my case also means being without water, phone, computer and other such services. Bottom line - no access to LT - no question. Power was restored here on Monday afternoon, and the intervening time has been spent cleaning up. Some people less than 30 km away still do not have power after five days.

All this means the mind was otherwise occupied, and no question popped up. I just went back to a question from September ten years ago, and found this one from rebeccanyc:


image from University of Manitoba

QUESTION 36: Course Reading Lists

It's back to school time, and Questions for the Avid Reader is going back to school with a twist: YOU create the course/reading list. Some of you have been reading extensively in certain areas, or may have professional or academic experience with a certain area, or maybe you have a more eclectic idea for your "course." Please think of a topic that you can recommend at least a few books for, and give your fellow Avid Readers a reading list.

Just to get you started, some imaginary courses created were:
- A Fictional Voyage to Medieval Times (rebeccanyc)
- behavioural ecology (C4RO)
- American Civil War (wildbill)
- the political novel (SassyLassy)
- film adaptations of classic works of literature (baswood)
- a request for books on the French Revolution (avidmom)

>44 SassyLassy: oh no! thats terrible! yes you were otherwise occupied; Hope at least you were able to read....and hope all gets settled soonest

A small throwback to the previous question as this article popped up this morning--and yes it's about DVDs/movies not books, but I think the same principles apply:

Farewell forever to Netflix DVDs

And link to Steven Soderbergh's annual list of things seen and read in the previous 365 days (mentioned in the article):

SEEN, READ 2022

(1. I'm mildly cheered that Soderbergh doesn't seem to have much more of a life than I do. 2. His system is messy.)

Question 36: Course reading lists

This is essentially a repost. As many of you may recall, from around 2020 through last year, I gradually read my way through a list of books about the history of slavery and racism in America. The list was supplied by my friend Kim Nalley, who is both a well-known jazz and blues singer and a PhD/professor at Cal-Berkeley on African American History. As I read, I also added some of my own selections to the list. By the time I was finished with the project, the list had rounded out to 30 books. But for the purposes of a course syllabus, I will try to get the list down to an even dozen. This syllabus is somewhat fanciful to the extent that the two Litwack books are extremely long, so no professor would include them both. In fact, Kim only included one of them on her original list. (ETA: Well, I got it down to a baker's dozen, anyway!) Finally, books followed by an asterisk were added to the project by me.

13-Book Course list:
Capitalism and Slavery by Eric Williams
Been in the Storm So Long: The Aftermath of Slavery by Leon F. Litwack
Trouble in Mind: Black Southerners in the Age of Jim Crow by Leon F. Litwack *
The Slave Ship: A Human History by Marcus Rediker
Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl by Harriet A. Jacobs
Black Sexual Politics: African Americans, Gender, and the New Racism by Patricia Hill Colliins
Walk With Me: A Biography of Fannie Lou Hamer by Kate Clifford Larson
In Struggle: SNCC and the Black Awakening of the 1960s by Clayborne Carson
Black Against Empire: The History and Politics of the Black Panther Party by Joshua Bloom and Waldo E. Martin
Ella Baker and the Black Freedom Movement: A Radical Democratic Vision by Barbara Ransby
The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander
The Sum of Us: What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can Prosper Together by Heather McGhee *
The Color of Law: The Forgotten History of How Our Government Segregated America by Richard Rothstein

Additional books read for this project. Of course others will wish to shuffle books on and off the "active list." It hurt my heart to leave Their Eyes Were Watching God off the course list, for example, but I couldn't make it fit.
Women, Race & Class by Angela Y. Davis
They Were Her Property: White Women as Slave Owners in the American South by Stephanie E. Jones-Rogers
Up from Slavery by Booker T. Washington
Black Jacobins by C.L.R. James
The Souls of Black Folk by W.E.B. Du Bois
Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass, an American Slave by Frederick Douglass
Caste: The Origins of Our Discontents by Isabel Wilkerson
Death of a King: The Real Story of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Final Year by Tavis Smiley *
In the Shadow of Statues: A White Southerner Confronts History by Mitch Landrieu *
An Easy Burden: The Civil Rights Movement and the Transformation of America by Andrew Young *

Fiction:
Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston
The Sellout by Paul Beatty *
Conjure Women by Afia Atakora *
Going to Meet the Man by James Baldwin *
Song of Solomon by Toni Morrison *

Just for fun, here's another for Question 36. Here is my imaginary and too long reading list for the course on Baseball History that you've all been clamoring for. Note that, with one exception, I have limited myself to books I have read, thereby leaving out many worthy books and, possibly, your favorites.

Memoirs and Oral Histories:
We Played the Game: 65 Players Remember Baseball's Greatest Era, 1947-1964 by Danny Peary
A series of fascinating short oral histories arranged by season. A primer on what it was like to be a major league ballplayer from the late 1940s through the mid-60s.

The Boys of Summer by Roger Kahn
A masterful memoir about writing about and learning about the 1955 Brooklyn Dodgers. Really the first book of its kind and still the standard.

Pennant Race by Jim Brosnan
The baseball notes of a relief pitcher (and fine writer) who was a member of the bullpen of the pennant winning 1961 Cincinnati Reds

Ball Four by Jim Bouton
The first and most famous tell-all baseball diary. Extremely well done and a hoot besides.

Essays:
The Summer Game by Roger Angell
The Heart of the Order by Tom Boswell
A pair of essay/column collections from two absolute masters

Histories:
The Old Ball Game: How John McGraw, Christy Mathewson, and the New York Giants Created Modern Baseball by Frank Deford
A fascinating history of baseball in the early 20th Century

Summer of '49 by David Halberstam
Halberstram, a Pulitzer Prize winning historian, gives us this terrific history of the great post-war Yankees/Red Sox pennant race of that year.

Turkey Stearnes and the Detroit Stars: The Negro Leagues in Detroit, 1919-1933 by Richard Bak
The one book on this list I haven't read. I wanted an in-depth look at the Negro Leagues. I hope this is well written! If I was really teaching this course I would certainly read the book first.

British Baseball And the West Ham Club: History of a 1930s Professional Team in East London by Josh Chetwynd and Brian A. Belton
A sentimental pick. The story of an obscure chapter of baseball history, the period when some courageous soles were trying to establish a professional baseball league in England, an attempt that was abruptly abandoned when the bombs started falling over London.

Biographies & Autobiographies:
Diz: The Story of Dizzy Dean and Baseball During the Great Depression by Robert Gregory
One of baseball's great characters, though not always an appealing fellow.

Frank Frisch: the Fordham Flash by Frank Frisch, as told to J. Roy Stockton
As a player and later a manager, Frisch was extremely highly regarded. Like Dean, Frisch was a member of the famous St. Louis Cardinals "Gas House Gang" of the 20s and 30s.

Casey: The Life and Legend of Charles Dillon Stengel by Joseph Durso
An admiral portrayal of a true baseball original. Stengel's playing career stretched from 1912 to 1925, and he managed from the early 30s through 1965, including famous stints leading one of baseball's best teams, the Yankees of the late 1950s, and of the the worst, the expansion New York Mets.

Hank Greenberg: the Story of My Life by Hank Greenberg
An insightful, well-written autobiography by baseball's first Jewish superstar.

Satchel: the Life and Times of an American Legend by Larry Tye
A compelling, entertaining biography of a unique baseball great and iconic character, truly a fascinating man. This is also, among many other things, an enlightening picture of Negro League baseball.

>47 rocketjk: >48 rocketjk: Great lists, real and imaginary. A person could really learn a lot there.

Now hoping for someone to come up with any kind of a list for the movies.

QUESTION 37: Dabble or Devour?

When you find an author or topic of particular interest, do you read everything that author has written before moving on, or as much on that topic as you can find, or are you happy to just say "I'll come back to that person/subject later."

If you get wrapped up in a topic, what is it that finally prompts you to move on to something else?

What is the longest streak you've ever had?

When you find an author or topic of particular interest, do you read everything that author has written before moving on, or as much on that topic as you can find, or are you happy to just say "I'll come back to that person/subject later."

if its an author ill check through their work and pick what looks interesting. Longest streak with one author probably was Ursula Helgi and Terry Pratchett I tend to have to read other books along with that authorso i mix it up a bit and if I get interested in a different book I go ahead and read it then come back for more

If you get wrapped up in a topic, what is it that finally prompts you to move on to something else?

OMG Not sure what my longest streak is but Ive had several topics that led to other similar topics that led, well you get the idea. Topics usually involve history, travel, biographies, its usually a book that prompts me to move on. I may go back to the earlier topic another time

An example for the RTT Revolution theme I decided to go for the neolithic agricultural revolutions. Started with mixed harvest: and as I read i realized I needed more information on all of the different refernces of archaeolgy digs that let to lots of googling and artical reading. I stopped when we started anther theme but the topic still fascinattes me and am keeping my eyes open for new info or book

this habit got me into trouble with my masters professor, I was her research assisstant and she'd give me articles she wanted from the library. Well one article led to another etc so something that should take 15 minute takes at least 30 Needless to say she was not happy so I was careful not to get too carried away

I do tend to binge on an author, particularly the ones where I start reading and don't look up until I finish the book (ie Nathan Lowell, who currently has me entrapped). A lot of authors, though, start sounding too similar after a few books, so I'll put them down and go read something else for a while (days, weeks, months...sometimes years). Less often on a topic, mostly because I read one good book and then have to go find other ones on topic and equally well written (if they're less well written, I get annoyed and apt to drop the book entirely - after all, I've already gotten one good exposure to the subject...).

I have no idea what my longest streak was. The annoying thing is that when I binge, I don't stop between books to review...and afterward I can't remember what happened in which book (assuming it's a series with a continuing story, as many of my binges are).

There was the time I read Mercedes Lackey's Hunter, Elite, and Apex - finished the series (all three), thought about it for half a day, and started Hunter again. I've reread that series half a dozen times, and find new neat little bits every time - and enjoy the story, too. I didn't reread it that many times in one go, though, I only read through it twice that time.

What usually stops me, or makes me say "I'll come back to this", is simply not having the next book. I try not to buy too many books, so when the next one is on a library hold for a couple weeks, I have to go find something else to read. Or it's an obscure paper book, that I could buy for mucho bucks on Abebooks or Amazon or whatever...or put it on a Want list and wait until I come across it in a yard sale, or Amazon has a sale, or something.

If I may just duck back to Question 36 one more time, I'd like to offer an actual course syllabus I was recently sent. But first, a story! As I've mentioned elsewhere, I am now auditing a course at Columbia University, about a half-hour walk from my apartment. It is a lecture class on Latin American History from the time of the Spanish invasion forward that takes place twice weekly. After class last week I was strolling along upper Broadway near the Columbia campus when I came upon a bookstall which, naturally, I stopped at. The bookseller was chatting with a young African American man (late 20s or, more likely, early 30s) and it took me only a second to realize they were talking about Toni Morrison. So, again naturally, I butted in to relate the fact that my favorite Morrison is Song of Solomon. The bookseller looked at me and smiled. "That's just what we're talking about," she said. "I'm reading it now and not really getting into it." I recalled that, indeed, the beginning of that novel can be off-putting, as the characters take some time to round into shape.

Then the man turned to me and said, "Can you tell me what you like about Song of Solomon?" To be clear, he wasn't saying this in any challenging way, as if I had to prove to him that I wasn't wrong, but rather in a tone making it clear that he was just interested in what I thought. Luckily, I had reread the book and discussed it with my reading group recently enough that the themes I'd enjoyed came back relatively easily to mind, and I was able to articulate that I'd enjoyed the evocation of working through family issues, the fact that all of the characters turned out to have back-stories that, as you learned them, added dimension to who you thought they were at first, and the idea of being an alien within one's own culture. The young man nodded thoughtfully (I felt like I'd passed a test!) and asked me if I'd read Morrison's novel, Paradise. When I said I hadn't, he strongly recommended it, saying that in it Morrison dealt with the same themes, but handled them much more smoothly and effectively. So I promised a read in the near future. Then he mentioned Morrison's Jazz, which he said was one of the best fictional representations of Harlem he'd ever read. I said I had read it, yes, but somewhere around 35 or 40 years ago, so my memory of particulars was dim. He said, "I'm using Jazz now for a course I'm teaching here at Columbia. It's called 'Jazz Fiction.'" I asked him, "What is the definition of 'Jazz Fiction?'" He said, "Well, that's part of what we talk about in the class. I don't really have a specific definition." I asked him whether, if I gave him my email address, he'd be willing to send me the syllabus for that class and he agreed. A couple of days later, he did so, and here it is:

The course is called "Jazz Fiction" and it's being taught in the English and Comparative Literature Department at Columbia University.

Course Materials for Purchase
Julio Cortázar, Hopscotch
Toni Morrison, Jazz

Course Materials Available Online
Alan Munton, “Misreading Morrison, Mishearing Jazz: A Response to Toni Morrison’s Jazz Critics”
Bruce Robert Nugent, “Smoke, Lillies, and Jade”
Chad Jewett, “The Modality of Toni Morrison’s ‘Jazz’”
Henry Louis Gates, The Signifying Monkey
Hugh L. Smith, Jr., “Jazz in the American Novel”
Langston Hughes, “Danse Africaine,” “Young Singer,” “Harlem Night Club,” “Negro Dancers”
Maya Angelou, “Reunion”
Ryan Jerving, “Early Jazz Literature (And Why You Didn’t Know)”
Sherrie Tucker, “’Where the Blues and the Truth Lay Hiding’: Rememory of Jazz in
Black Women’s Fiction”

QUESTION 37: Dabble or Devour?

When you find an author or topic of particular interest, do you read everything that author has written before moving on, or as much on that topic as you can find, or are you happy to just say "I'll come back to that person/subject later."

I generally go to Paperback Swap and see what's on offer by that author or on that topic. I'll order one or two if they're available, or put a couple on the Wish List if they're not in the swap pool yet. At that point, I just let nature take its course, unless it's something that has just knocked me out. So I guess I'm an "I'll come back to that later" reader!

Not sure if you could even call my streaks by that name, as I prefer not to read multiple books within the same genre without sandwiching some other genre in between. They are more chains than streaks. A historical novel may lead me to the biography of one of the background characters, which leads me to a nonfiction history of the region, which prompts an interest in the technological development that made that region influential in a certain product, which leads me to the history of that product..... You get the picture!

If you get wrapped up in a topic, what is it that finally prompts you to move on to something else?

As hinted above, I prefer not to read the kind of series that have some immense arc (George R.R. Martin, I'm lookin' at you), but will read the loosely-organized series that don't really need to be read in chronological order (hello, Stephanie Plum!). So, I may be "prompted" to move on to another author or genre just for variety, yet maintain an interest that will bring me back to it when a new title rises to the top of the TBR stack or a popular author releases a new book.

What is the longest streak you've ever had?

And because of that rather peripatetic reading style, I'd have to say my longest streak goes back almost 60 years, when I fell into the Arthurian Legend and keep going back for more. Likewise, I've been fascinated with the Tudors for 50 years.

>53 rocketjk: What a wonderful story, Jerry! Talk about serendipity. Thanks for sharing it and the course list. I have Paradise on the shelves unread, as well as A Mercy. Must make time for them...

Question 37

I'm forever saying "ooh that was really good, I definitely want to read more of that author" ... and then coming back to them 10 years or so later. Reading more than one book by an author in a single year seems like a lot to me. (I am actually experimenting with this this year - I have 2 authors I've read 2 books from this year, which is extremely unusual!)

Same with topics - I love reading about arctic exploration, mountaineering, things like that, but I tend to read one book every year or two (or three or four) so it's not really like being wrapped up, I suppose.

Q37:

If I get reading a series, I sometimes read several in a row (the Wayward Children series sucked me in this year), but in general I don't follow up in reading my favorite authors when I really should. I mean, if they are favorites, why hold off?

As for topics, I sometimes "read down rabbit holes" with one book leading to another, but it hasn't happened lately, mainly because I have spent a considerable amount of my reading time on the African Novel Challenge (which is, I suppose, a nonorganic topic focus) and book club selections.

Q37:

I occasionally take up topic-based reading projects that can last quite a while. See >47 rocketjk: for an example. What I generally do in a case like this, though, is alternate that project reading with other books. So maybe I'll read something from the "project" every third book.

There have been writers whose work I always read as soon as their books came out. Philip Roth was one such, and also Jasper Fforde for a good while. Although I'm not as quick to Fforde's new books as I used to be, I still check in once in a while to see if there's anything I've missed.

For the past several years I've had individual writer's whose work I've gone through two books per year, the first book I start each January and the first book I start each July. I read through all of Joseph Conrad's novels in this fashion and now I'm on to Isaac B. Singer. But I don't generally just peel off 5 or 6 books of a particular author's in a row.

Q36: …I may come back to this one, I’ve got a couple of ideas, but it’s hard to do when I’m just using a phone for LT.

Q37: As everyone knows, I do tend to go down rabbit holes when they present themselves, whether it’s a chance discovery of an interesting author or a topic suggested by some theme on LT or in what I’m doing in the “real world”. But I’m quite fickle, it’s not unusual for me to be distracted from a topic with two or three books still on their way to me or sitting on the TBR.

On the rare occasions when I do a complete read-through of an author’s work to date, or of a series of books, then it’s usually a mix of re-reads and first times. I’ve done that in fairly recent times for Tales of the city, Adrian Mole, and A.S. Byatt, amongst others.

My longest “project” to read an author’s works was probably P G Wodehouse, who kept me busy (on and off) for the best part of fifty years, which is an average of about two new books a year, about the same rate as he wrote them.

Q37

Hmm. When I find an author i like, I definitely want to read more, even everything by them. And i do sometimes read all a single author’s work. But the two lists oddly don’t really overlap.

Because my theme reads are largely about authors I have never read and want to discover. Whereas an author I discover randomly gets tossed in my unstructured want to read list somewhere hovering loosely in that brain network, and gets read again haphazardly.

My TBR and "wanna read someday" lists are long enough that I rarely go on a long binge of a single author. There are active authors whose work I keep up with as new books are published, but when I discover an older author, I just add their name to the list of authors who I know I can turn to in the unlikely event that I run out of stuff to read.

Sure, I would love to get around to reading more of Donald Westlake and Octavia Butler and Chris Bohjalian, but I've got to keep up with John Scalzi and J. Ryan Stradal and Julia Spencer-Fleming, and I still haven't even gotten around to reading anything by Kelly Link or Tony Hillerman or N. K. Jemisin. I don't have time to binge!

I don't really binge. There are certain subjects and authors I'll tend to pick up, or return to, but I almost never do that consecutively.

>53 rocketjk: What a great course, and I love the syllabus. Also, glad to hear at least some of those booksellers in the blocks around Columbia are still around. When I worked there from 2006-10, there were a good number of them, and I spent many lunch hours browsing and talking with the sellers and, often, coming away with some unexpected (and usually really good) title for a few bucks.

Q37 If my author starts writing books that are so similar to her others that I could just switch charactrs and it wold be the same book, Im ready to move on. Anne Tyler, John Irving, and Guy Gabriel Kay are three that come to mind

Well I disappeared for two weeks but I'm back home again, so here is the overdue next question:


image Redzinga from Getty Images

QUESTION 38: Readings and Signings by Authors

Your favourite living author is miraculously speaking in a location close to you. Will you attend? What are your expectations? Is getting an autograph important to you?

Would you travel to see a favourite author?

Have you ever been to such an event featuring an author you admired, only to be completely disillusioned? Conversely, have you ever heard an author you didn't particularly admire speak, only to be convinced otherwise?

Playing the dead authors game, who is the author you would most like to hear speaking and reading?

Tell us about the good and bad of author performances, especially if you've been behind the scenes.

No, I'm not going. I've never been one who cares much about the person behind the work; I'm happy to enjoy the book (the movie, the music, the TV show...) for itself without needing to know anything about the creator beyond "when's their next thing coming out?"

It’s probably been 15 or more years since I attended a reading. I’m not really a person drawn to crowd events in general, and that’s probably my strongest excuse.

It’s an interesting question as to who I would like to see speak. James Baldwin, certainly. But he was quite a personality. Authors tend to be at their best when on their own.

Your favourite living author is miraculously speaking in a location close to you. Will you attend? What are your expectations? Is getting an autograph important to you?

this has happened many times. I will attend and buy the book. my expectations are to enjoy the reading and learning the background of the book and writing. I have asked for autographs before from a few special authors

Would you travel to see a favourite author?

I have often driven a couple of hours in my state, esp when an author is at a book festival

Have you ever been to such an event featuring an author you admired, only to be completely disillusioned? Conversely, have you ever heard an author you didn't particularly admire speak, only to be convinced otherwise?

I don't get disllusioned at the reading; I do when I find that I dont like the book

Playing the dead authors game, who is the author you would most like to hear speaking and reading?

I have to give that more thought, Ill come back to this

Tell us about the good and bad of author performances, especially if you've been behind the scenes.

non that I can remember

>64 SassyLassy:

Q#38

My favourite living authors are thin on the ground... In general, yes, I would make an effort to attend such events. I'm not firing on all cylinders lately so I won't try to list everyone, but I was very happy to listen to (and in some instances meet, even multiple times) people like Elaine Pagels, Jeanette Winterson, Edmund White, Quentin Crisp. I often did get autographs because usually there'd be books to buy and that is one way to show appreciation, but collecting signatures in itself isn't a crucial thing for me.

I've never been disappointed in hearing or meeting an author I like, but then, I haven't had the opportunity (nor the desire) to develop real deep contacts with any of them. I'm friends with a couple of writers I also like to read (nobody really famous, certainly not in North America) and it's impossible to separate their personalities from their work. Not sure I could be friends with someone while detesting their work, or vice versa.

Dead author I'd most want to meet: Virginia Woolf, a million times over. But I'd best be invisible, so I could stare and listen without annoying her.

Your favourite living author is miraculously speaking in a location close to you. Will you attend? What are your expectations? Is getting an autograph important to you?

Realistically, no, because experience tells me I would only hear about it the day after, from an acquaintance who had got tickets six months ago and didn’t realise I was also a fan of that author…

I don’t really identify with the idea of author as performer, I suppose, so I don’t make much effort to keep track of that kind of event. If I knew an author I admire was coming to town I probably would make the effort to go. I don’t tend to attend literary festivals and the like, although when I have done so, usually at someone else’s prompting, I’ve often enjoyed it.

The autograph-line isn’t really my sort of thing: I tend to get very shy in crowds, and I go along imagining that the author probably hates it as much as I do. If I do end up in the line, I make it as quick and efficient as I can. I’d love to be in a situation where I could chat at leisure with favourite authors — at a dinner-party, say, or coincidentally sharing a railway carriage — but I’m useless at coming up with intelligent questions in the typical after-lecture situation.

Most of my (few) signed copies are from authors I’ve met in other situations, e.g. as teachers, colleagues, or social acquaintances, without knowing their work. Some I’ve later come to appreciate as writers, others not. Similarly, the writers I follow as bloggers or on social media tend to be people I’ve come across in other contexts, not through their literary work.

Would you travel to see a favourite author?

Well, I once went as far as Brussels (about 3 hours away) with a group of friends to hear Ali Smith and Jonathan Coe reading, and enjoyed it, so probably yes. But it’s not something I often do.

Have you ever been to such an event featuring an author you admired, only to be completely disillusioned? Conversely, have you ever heard an author you didn't particularly admire speak, only to be convinced otherwise?

Not really, although I did once go to hear Dawkins and found him as lecturer so exactly like himself as author that there seemed to be no point going to all that effort…

Playing the dead authors game, who is the author you would most like to hear speaking and reading?

Well, Dickens, obviously, because contemporaries all said how much they loved his performances. But I wouldn’t miss a chance to see James Baldwin (>66 dchaikin:) or Virginia Woolf (>68 LolaWalser:), should it arise. I saw Terence Dixon’s fabulous 1970 Baldwin-in-Paris film Meeting the man a little while ago: I’d have loved to be one of those students who get to sit down with him at the end, even though it might have been a bit scary. Thomas Bernhard is also high on my list of writers I would have liked to know in person; he seems to have been slightly less crotchety in life than on the page, by all accounts. The one filmed interview I’ve seen makes him look almost human…

Q38:

Your favourite living author is miraculously speaking in a location close to you. Will you attend? What are your expectations? Is getting an autograph important to you?

I might, and have, but I'm generally more interested in seeing an author being interviewed by someone competent than in seeing the author read from his/her/their works. I'm interested in the creative process, and a good interviewer is likely to lead the author to that topic. The readings I've most enjoyed (or at least those I can remember) have been by Philip Roth (in a large auditorium, so not a very intimate event), Jasper Fforde (in a bookstore; he was charming and delightful), Mary Roach (same bookstore, same charm and delight) and the poet Kim Addonizio (a good friend from grad school days). Autographs are fun, mostly for the reason that LolaWalser provided: buying the book and saying "Thanks" while getting the autograph.*

Would you travel to see a favourite author?

I wouldn't be likely to travel a significant distance to see a favorite author speak. I can't think of a time I've done so.

Have you ever been to such an event featuring an author you admired, only to be completely disillusioned? Conversely, have you ever heard an author you didn't particularly admire speak, only to be convinced otherwise?

No, I've never experienced either.

Playing the dead authors game, who is the author you would most like to hear speaking and reading?

Assuming I get a babel fish so I can understand all languages, I would love to hear Homer reciting from the Odyssey. (And James Joyce reading from Ulysses, come to think of it.) Also Anton Chekhov reading one or two of his short stories. And who wouldn't want to sit in Emily Dickenson's parlor (oops, I mean "parlour") and hear her read her poetry? I doubt that Joseph Conrad ever read from his work in public, but that's something I would like to experience. Also, I wish Philip Roth were still alive so I could see/hear him read in a smaller, more intimate setting and have a chat with him, to swap Weequahic stories. Also, as others have said, Jame Baldwin. And Toni Morrison. OK, I'll stop now.

Tell us about the good and bad of author performances, especially if you've been behind the scenes.

I've never been behind the scenes of a reading. Generally speaking, other than the material you hear read itself, the "good" is the sense of comradery among the fans of the author and, as noted above, the insight into the author's creative process you might get somewhere along the line. The potential "bad" elements are:

++poor, rambling questions from the audience, if there is an audience Q&A period,

++bad sound

++people in front of you in the autograph line who want to get into long conversations with the author in total disregard of all the people waiting behind them

_____________________________

* Re: autographs. Although it's fun in the moment to get an autograph and say hello and thanks to the author, in the end the book goes on the shelves with all the other books and it doesn't take long to forget that one or the other book is autographed. Although I will say that I have a few times made a point of buying signed copies of books either online or at bookstores if I am planning to give the book as a gift, especially to my wife, to add an extra element of specialness to the book.

But my favorite book autographs are the ones in books that I've found in used bookstores, thrift shops or even sidewalk sales. How fun to open a book you're interested in at such a venue and find that the book's author, famous or not, has handled the same copy you're holding and even signed it.

>70 rocketjk: I doubt that Joseph Conrad ever read from his work in public, but that's something I would like to experience.

It would have to be on a sailing boat waiting for the tide in the Thames estuary... :-)

>69 thorold: *It's unlikely I would travel to see an author these days. Well, maybe.

*I'd like to sit with Marian Evans/George Elliot (in my time rather than hers...not sure that one of those dresses would be comfortable)

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It's been my experience that adult readers are often disappointed meeting favorite authors because, well, authors are just people like us. There are nice authors and sh**y authors and everything between.

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During my years at the bookstore I made it part of my job to create in-store book clubs and other events. The largest of these groups was the SF&F group which came together each week to discuss what they were individually reading. Off the top of my head, we also had a Classics group, two consecutive Jane Austen groups, children groups...and more. And with the success of these groups we had a ready-made base audiences for authors events.

This store was in a plaza in a smallish middle class suburb here in New Hampshire. The manager let me at it and we discovered we did very well with SF&F authors. Our big fish was Orson Scott Card, but Robert Jordan was a close 2nd - their lines were at least 300 fans long. We also had Terry Goodkind), China Mieville and many more...

*I actually met Michael at a SF&F convention in the Boston area (aptly named Readercon)\while chasing authors for the store.
** I also went after authors through the bookseller association conventions.
***Had a volunteer come and teach some regency dancing to one of the Jane Austen groups....

>72 avaland: The SF&F group is still meeting twice a month, though there are only about 6 regulars these days.

>71 thorold: Ha! Love it.

Your favourite living author is miraculously speaking in a location close to you. Will you attend? What are your expectations? Is getting an autograph important to you?
I absolutely would attend, and would re-arrange my schedule if at all possible for Barbara Kingsolver, Margaret Atwood, Rick Bragg, Louise Erdrich, or Neil Gaiman. Autographs for the sake of autographs are not high on my list of priorities, though I wouldn’t turn down a photo op!

Would you travel to see a favourite author?
I have traveled to events where a favorite author was part of the programming; i.e., to knitting conventions where Stephanie Pearl-McPhee or Franklin Habit were teaching, and have chosen science fiction conventions based on their Author Guest of Honor.

Have you ever been to such an event featuring an author you admired, only to be completely disillusioned?
I remember a particular science-fiction writer (whose name I will not share) giving a seminar to wannabe writers on how to carve out writing time when you also held down a full-time job. The short answer, after all the egotism was removed, was that you turned over all domestic chores and adult responsibilities to your spouse. Disgusted would be a better response than disillusioned. What a jerk!

Playing the dead authors game, who is the author you would most like to hear speaking and reading?
John Steinbeck, though Kent Haruf is right up there in close competition.

Tell us about the good and bad of author performances, especially if you've been behind the scenes.
Others have posted (and I’m sure more will do so) about interactions with authors at science fiction conventions. When I was active in the hobby, in the 80s and 90s, it was quite common for writer guests to not only present participatory seminars with lots of Q&A, but to hang around the Hospitality Room for general BS sessions with fans. There were a number of mentor-mentee relationships that grew out of these interactions.

I will share a story that has become funny in the rear-view mirror. I once went to an sf convention that was out of my normal orbit and budget, because Harlan Ellison was the writer GoH, and there was an opportunity to have breakfast with him (along with any other attendee who could pony up the extra bucks). Unfortunately, the night before was ... well, some of the details are a bit fuzzy, but I know there was a great deal more drinking than I am accustomed to, and various varieties of alcohol were sampled. Long story short, I woke up with the World's Worst Hangover (probably only the second time in my life that I was really ill). By the time I could actually walk upright, the breakfast was over. Talk about adding insult to injury! Until I found out that Mr. Ellison was also hors de combat and had himself skipped the event. So do I get to be mad at him for disappointing fans, or mad at myself for pulling a dumb stunt the night before? Or do I just laugh about it and remember The Time I Didn't Have Breakfast With Harlan Ellison?

>75 LyndaInOregon: Ha! love that

thinking more about dead authors Id like to chat with
John Stienbeck (thanks for the tip)
Ray Bradbury
Arthur C Clark
Norah Loft
Elizabeth Von Armin
Edna Farber

>63 cindydavid4: Totally with you on Anne Tyler. I really enjoyed her early books but she became so annoying. There are others whose names I have repressed. One is an Indian-American woman who always writes about a wife adapting to American life, and an Afghan male who wrote two almost identical books about two young boys running kites. Kate Atkinson seems heading in the same i direction.

I agree with your first one I think you mean Chita Banerjee DIVAKARUNI Loved her for years, they, yeah, im done The Afgan wrote kite runner I didn;t think his next one was the same, esp because the protagonist was a women.

I have attended a lot of readings and lectures over the years and it is my practice, if the speaker brings copies of his/her book, to buy a copy and ask him or her to autograph it. I have 111 books in my collection tagged “signed by author” and about 90 were acquired in this way. Another 20 were picked up in used book stores or acquired from ABE. Of course, a signature from back in the day before authors sat in the bookstore and signed them by the score can add a lot of value to a book by a famous author.

>78 cindydavid4: re The Kite Runner. I looked up a very short review of Khaled Hosseni’s A Thousand Splendid Suns and you are right. There’s a difference. being girl friendships rather than boy friendships, but the plot seemed so similar I discarded it. Here is what I wrote on discarding it.

“This novel appears to be a mirror of the writer’s first novel, The Kite Runner, which I enjoyed. However it’s the same old same old. The main difference is that the main characters are two girls growing up on different sides of the track. The style of writing is the same. It reads like a fable, which was novel in Kite Runner, but I’d had enough.

Just couldn’t stick with this as there are so many good books waiting out there, and life is short.”

oh i agree, and sorry it didnt work for you. when I read it i saw the same themes of the first but otherwise found it different enough tp like it. but as always. YMMV

>76 cindydavid4: And if they autographed your books, you’d learn how to spell their names! Currently you seem to be 0 for 6, or am I missing the joke?

my apologies, its been a very stressful week and I read malice when there was none. that wont happen again. I will still probably make typos and spelling mistakes I type fast and am not good at checking. thank you for understanding. now back to your regularly scheduled post already in progress

Q38:
I went to some readings when I lived in the Bay Area. When I was taking a class at a local community college, we were assigned attending a reading - I went to see Douglas Adams, which was phenomenal.

Later, I saw Nick Hornby (fun), and Tobias Wolff - super engaging.

I helped put on a couple of readings, I remember doing the one for Dave Barry the best. He drew a huge crowd and we had some difficulties with our space (finding a way that everyone could see him), and he gamely stood on top of a table to read and field questions.

Q38:

I've been to a few author talks/readings, and enjoyed them all. If the line's not too long I buy a book and have it signed, but I don't collect signatures per se. It's more a thank you. And I'm too conscious of people behind me to do more than smile and say I love your writing. The first author I remember hearing was Art Spiegelman right after Maus II came out. Super cute inscription. Others that stand out are Mary Doria Russell, Mary Norris, Madeline Miller, Bill Bryson, and most recently a Maine author, Kevin St. Jarre.

>84 ursula: oh love that! And I am very jealous - Douglas Adams! I did see Sir Terry Pratchett, actually called in sick to work so I could go, Neil Gaimin completely filled a HS auditorium.

thinking about other good ones: Madeliene Albright, Rebecca Solnit, local author Luis Alberto Urrea, Mark Vonnegut Jr. And this week we are going to see Rachel Maddow who i suspect will be a treat

An advantage of growing old is going to a concert in a little coffee house or a reading in a small bookstore and getting something autographed, then living long enough to wow people with your signed copy of The Edible Woman or James Taylor and the Original Flying Machine.

I'm more inclined to go to friends' readings than those of authors I don't know. All things considered, I'd rather see an author I don't know personally on a panel or one-on-one discussion than just reading their work. I live in NYC, which is ostensibly great for access to author events, but I'm up at the northernmost end and getting to anything that happens in Manhattan is a good hour one way, and Brooklyn is 1-1/2 to 2 hours. So I need to be picky about what I take the time to go see, how late I want to be out on a work night, etc. That was one thing I loved about the remote events during the height of the pandemic—they didn't have the same energy as live events, to be sure, but at least I got to go to whatever I wanted (within reason).

I do love a signed book... one of those things that feels like it shouldn't really matter, but it does. Back when I was moderating in-person author panels I always asked them to sign print galleys, when I had them, and some of those have real sentimental value for me now. (Probably the top of the list: a warm and personal message from Karine Jean Pierre, now White House press secretary, signed "with much love & respect"—she's a lovely person and I'm a big fan.)

>88 lisapeet: I’ve been to a few book readings in Manhattan but only had one book signed - The Masque of Africa by V S Naipaul and I was so disappointed though I’d so looked forward to actually seeing him. It was like going through a checkout at a supermarket. He was known for his taciturn character. I felt sorry for his wife.

>89 kjuliff: A House for Mr Biswas is one of the most mean-spirited books I’ve ever read, in every sense of the word. And that was an early work! I crossed him off the list after that.

>90 booksaplenty1949: A House for Mr Biswas was my favorite book for many years. As V S Naipaul was putting his signature to The Masque of Africa I had the apparent audacity to remark that I came to his work through Mr Biwas. V.S. didn’t even look up. As he put his flourish on the last letter of his signature, in one singular movement he brushed he aside, ready for next in line.

V.S. Cash-register. Still his middle career books were good. A writer, not a charmer.

I've heard that Naipaul was not the nicest guy in private, either. But hey, gossip is gossip.

Paul Theroux often mentioned his fued with Naipaul in many of his travel narratives. Never knew what the problem was but considering Theroux judgemental tendency, its a little of the pot calling the kettle black

>93 cindydavid4: “ Naipaul’s disdain for women, his not considering them as equals is proudly displayed in his life. In Patrick French’s authorised biography, it’s revealed how he mistreated his first wife, Patricia Naipaul, with whom he was married for 41 years ”
The World Is What It Is: The Authorized Biography of V. S. Naipaul by. Patrick French
I certainly got that vibe,

As I noted in my review of A House for Mr Biswas, “every meal in badly-cooked, every physical object is jerry-built and damaged, every promised treat or outing ends in disappointment…Family relationships are universally coercive and/or abusive…” Naipaul claimed in the 20th anniversary edition that this is his most personal book “created out of what I saw and felt as a child.” I went on to note “If this is remotely true it reveals a psychic wound of unimaginable depth and probably explains why Naipaul is widely regarded as a very nasty man, personally speaking.”

I have never been to a reading. I don't think I have ever been aware that one has been going on. I would probably not be tempted as I have an aversion to all sorts of advertising and I don't think listening to a reading is a spectator sport.

A reading from a dead author, well I might be interested in D H Lawrence just to get some idea of the intensity, although I might struggle with the accent.

>94 kjuliff: Not to mention a 20+ year affair. Apparently proposed to a third woman while his wife was dying of cancer. A real charmer.

>96 baswood: huh never thought of it that way. granted the tables are filled with the book for sale at readings. But I find it interesting to listen to the author explain his book. I remember Doerrs reading of cloud cuckoo land and was so amazed by an ancient volume that he took the name from which Id never heard of before. Yes I bought the book, but I didnt see it as advertising in the way that commercials are But YMMV as usual

>95 booksaplenty1949: >97 booksaplenty1949: Thanks. Yes it explains his adult personality to some extent. I have also read a little of Naipaul’s life from literary journalists. I think Mr Biswas represented his father. There was also the influence of his second marriage to his apparently subservient English wife, and they way he treated her when she was dying (as in your second post on this.

Whatever it was, A House for Mr Biswas is a treasure of a book.

>96 baswood: Ideally the author gives some background on the work in question and explains his/her choice of a section to read to us, so it adds to our future appreciation of the work.
For much of history “literature” was a spoken word experience, when literacy was rarer and written material scarce and/or expensive. In the Victorian era reading aloud was an activity enjoyed both in the drawing room and the servants’ hall, and Dickens packed them in to his public readings from his novels. More recently, John Lithgow turned an out-of-print short story anthology edited by Somerset Maugham into a sought-after item by reading stories from it as part of a Broadway show. So I think it is reductive to dismiss readings as advertising, and they have a long history as a “spectator sport.” Doesn’t mean it’s one everyone has to enjoy, of course.

>98 cindydavid4: perhaps V.S. was more taciturn than usual the evening I went to his reading. He appeared to scorn his American audience. He reach a chapter but spoke very little about his new book.

>97 booksaplenty1949: >98 cindydavid4:
I revisited the evening’s reading I attended - see link below, and right at the end of the video, the presenter asks Naipaul a question from the audience. The question is about the critics’ and reviewers’ admiration for Naipaul’s books and their, at the same time, their hostility to him as a person. About position 1.11.40 in the video recording. V.S.Naipaul Reading and Interview

>100 booksaplenty1949: yes, you are absolutely right about readings from the past and I could be attracted to modern day poetry readings. Other than that >96 baswood: I was just being a grumpy old man.

>101 kjuliff: I was talking about readings in general. Yeah, Id never go to one of his.

I have thoroughly enjoyed hearing Alexander McCall Smith give a talk. As for "dead" authors, I have also enjoyed hearing Hal Holbrook do Mark Twain, and William Windom doing James Thurber. I would dearly love to have heard Dorothy Dunnett while she was alive.

>104 cindydavid4: Yes he was a misogynist for sure

image from Bookstr

QUESTION 39: Suspense, Thrillers, and maybe a bit of Horror

Matthew Lewis, Edgar Alan Poe, Stephen King - three authors from three different centuries who still keep readers turning the page.

What is it about suspense that keeps us reading? What are the necessary ingredients for you?

Do you like to feel that certain sense of dread as you read?

Can film trump the written word in suspense?

Who are your favourite authors for this genre? Which books would you recommend to your fellow readers?

I like suspense, but not horror.My must-haves for a good suspense novel are:
- the characters must be believable and human. No monsters. Nothing supernatural.
- the plot should be clever but not over-complex in its twists and turns
- I don’t care if the name of the criminal is known in advance - often knowing who did the deed in the beginning makes for a good novel. What happens to the person who committed the crime should be revealed at the end, or left unknown
- there should be no sadism
- it must be a page-turner

Some of my faves
- Laughter in the Dark, Vladimir Nabocov
- Snow, John Banville
- In Cold Blood’, Truman Capote
- A Suspension of Mercy, Patricia Highsmith
- The Infatuations, Javier Marias
- Joe Cinque's Consolation, Helen Garner

I don't read a lot of horror. Gave up on Stephen King along about the time of Pet Semetary and Christine because I felt his work had become formulaic. Then, after his accident, he began focusing on the many ways in which the human body can be destroyed. Nope, not interested.

"Horror" to me, doesn't necessarily mean a lot of blood and gore. It is more the awareness of something deeply wrong and deeply terrifying. So...
The Haunting of Hill House, Shirley Jackson
October Country, Ray Bradbury
I Am Legend, Richard Matheson
The Vanishment, Jonathan Aycliffe

I haven't read any Poe in years. It may be time to re-visit him. And I'm not at all familiar with Matthew Lewis. Must go do some research.

I'm very excited about the release of A Haunting on the Hill by Elizabeth Hand. Perhaps Santa will bring me a copy....

I don't generally read suspense or horror genres. I do remember reading The Hunger Games and it feeling pretty intense and I didn't seem to mind. That was a while ago. The Haunting of Hill House is a terrific novel.

Q107 I'm the opposite of many, I guess - I don't read much in the way of suspense or thrillers, but I read horror.

For me, supernatural stories are not scary. A book based on the supernatural can keep me reading, and parts of it can incite dread in me, but the supernatural aspect itself doesn't. And I do like to have that certain sense of dread when I'm reading. But it doesn't come from the supposedly frightening things that happen - I don't want it to hit all the beats (alone in a house, something goes bump in the night, phone doesn't work, or whatever), at least unless it does it in some novel way/with a novel reason.

The best horror novels toy with what we already find unsettling, and keep poking at that, like you know the scratching sound is the tree outside, but what if else could it be? What if you convince yourself it's the tree but it really isn't? That sort of thing. I usually like it when I'm in the position of the main character, not sure what's going on, but depending on the situation a sort of cat-and-mouse or knowing when the main character has just made the wrong decision can be good.

A song that perfectly captures a horror story for me is "Intruder" by Peter Gabriel - part of the lyrics:

I know something about opening windows and doors
I know how to move quietly to creep across creaky wooden floors
I know where to find precious things in all your cupboards and drawers
Slipping the clippers
Slipping the clippers through the telephone wires
A sense of isolation, a sense of isolation
Inspires me
I like to feel the suspense when I'm certain you know I am there
I like you lying awake, your bated breath charging the air

And there are plenty of dystopias that could be considered to tip over into horror: JG Ballard's High Rise comes to mind right away.

Books I've enjoyed that I tagged horror:
The Shining by Stephen King (I read it pretty young but it made me afraid some nights to get up and turn out the lights)
Tender Is the Flesh by Agustina Bazterrica (about a future where people are farmed for meat; kind of a love it or hate it, I think)
The Only Good Indians by Stephen Graham Jones (some quite surprising moments in this one)
Jawbone by Monica Ojeda (teenage girl friend groups and horror go together quite well)
Our Wives Under the Sea by Julia Armfield (I love when horror is a stand-in for something more mundane)
Revenge by Yoko Ogawa (interconnected short stories)

As for film, I think sometimes it's better at generating unease - the music, etc helps a lot to tell you how to feel. But thanks to the time frame, it's not always good at letting dread build slowly. Personally, I'll watch suspense movies but I won't watch much horror. Images impress themselves in my mind in a way that scenes in a book don't.

I don't read horror. That said, Ursula Vernon/T Kingfisher has written several novels that are generally considered horror that I read and enjoyed - something about her pragmatic protagonists defuses the horror for me and makes them just good books (The Hollow Places, The Twisted Ones, What Moves the Dead - didn't like A House with Good Bones as much). Another one that edges very very close to horror, for me, but misses elegantly is The Thread That Binds the Bones by Nina Kiriki Hoffman - hmmm, actually, a lot of hers edge on horror. There are a few I've read and will not read again, but more I find quite readable.

For me, horror is helplessness. If there are horrific (or suspenseful) things happening, but Our Hero(s) are (able to) doing things about it, it's not horror - may be suspense. If they either can't do anything, or anything they do will (might) make things worse - that's horror, and I'll drop the book if that comes up.

The problem is, either it's horror (which is unpleasant and I don't want to be exposed to it), or (far too often - not Vernon or Hoffman, but too many others) it's not as scary as the author thinks it is, which means I have brainpower left over to notice the really dumb plot holes. I've read far too many books that were trying for horror or suspense, and missed because - why? why did they do that, they know better. Where did that come from, it's already been established it can't. They said that didn't happen, why is the story now assuming it did? Or just fractured plot - event, event, JUMP SCARE, event that does not follow from anything previous... Mostly they're very boring. Poe does that - I've read The Tell-Tale Heart a few times (for school, mostly). If you enter into the protagonist's reactions, it's quite horrific. But if you just read it, not being scared...stream of consciousness babble, confused timeline, _boring_.

I finally saw The Shining after watching a documentary, Room 237 which explored various nutbar theories which have been put forward about the film—-for example that Kubrick has embedded references in it to the fact that he was the director of the faked footage of the Apollo 11 “Moon Landing” in 1969. I am not a fan of the horror genre but I did make it through the film. Perhaps I could now successfully read the book, although I do not really “get” the pleasure factor in suspense/horror.

i havent liked horror since I was a kid, as my parents banned me from watching Outer Limits because I had nightmares every time I did (twilight zone did not affect me the same way) I like suspense, ruth rendell/ barbara vine and patrick mcgrath are the right speed for me. i find that the books I like tend to have irony or a bit of humor in them. Loved Poe, and the short stories of Bradbury and Clark. I just dont like being scard

I'm not a huge horror reader, but I find that the more plausible the Big Scary Thing is, the more scared I will be by the book. To pick a couple of Stephen King novels as examples, Cujo is a lot scarier than Christine because I can believe in a rabid dog and I can't believe in a demon-possessed killer car.

>108 kjuliff: Interesting list, and I like your requirements for a good suspense novel. That makes me wonder if what >109 LyndaInOregon: is referring to with he idea of awareness of something deeply wrong and terrifying is actually suspense, not horror.

>111 ursula: Certainly agree about suspense movies versus horror.

Interesting that so many picked up on "horror" in the question, but not "suspense" or "thrillers". Does this say anything about what frightens us or makes us uneasy?

The mention of In Cold Blood in >108 kjuliff: above, and >115 KeithChaffee:'s mention of the need for plausibility, made me wonder if non fiction can be every bit as scary as fiction. I remember reading Helter Skelter late one night and terrified to pass in front on my uncurtained windows.

>117 SassyLassy: I think it depends on the quality of the writing when it comes to non-fiction being possibly as scary as fiction.

In Cold Blood is scary because of the way it was written. It’s scary that Perry Smith could actually murder in cold blood. The horror is in his character and actions even though we know about them in advance.

I never find mystery or crime novels scary if I can’t believe in the characters, whether imagined or not.

Movies on the other hand can be scary even if a bit over-the-top. Invasion on the Body Snatchers and Duel (Spielberg) are both crime thriller classics though the storylines are pure fantasy.

I have no idea what "suspense" novels are, and I don't read "thrillers" either because they're _all_ boring. Oh look, more gore and blowing things up - oh yeah, and the hero gets lots of s**. And/or conspiracy theories are used as the base axioms for the story (ie, Dan Brown). Yawn. I know a lot of people like them (they're generally a lot more popular than what I read!) but not for me.

I read mysteries for the puzzles; if the story is about how people are scared, that's horror (or at least an attempt at horror).

So I didn't comment on either of those before.

>118 kjuliff: actually reading Prequel: An American Fight Against Fascism the Rachel Maddow book about the rise of Facism in our country from the early 1900s Non fiction that is as scary as you can get when you look at the parrells to today.

I don't read horror, per se, but I do read (or have read) Gothic fiction (i.e. Joyce Carol Oates*, Susan Hill, Helen Dunmore) and several nonfiction (textbooks, I think) about "the Gothic" in Charles L. Crow's work...

I very much have enjoyed dystopias (from Atwood to Mieville...) note: I was disgusted with Cormac McCarthy's The Road (which was probably his intention.

I have read a bit or ghost stories .... (a search says over 30) Susan Hill is my fave there.

I have read a lot of dark Joyce Carol Oates' but don't read her horror books.

*These days the news brings all the horror anyone might crave....

Interesting that there is a sub-genre of mystery story known as a “cosy.” Although by definition a murder mystery involves death, sometimes more than one, there need be no element of horror or suspense. Sometimes we get the latter—-will the murderer strike again? will the detective pursue him/her safely?—-but suspense is not necessary, and if the murderer turned out to be the Abominable Snowman or even a motiveless homicidal maniac we would feel that the book was a horror story, not a mystery story at all. We often feel that the world is no worse off now that Mrs McGinty’s Dead or whatever, and turn our attention to the interesting puzzle.

The "horror" stories I like are mostly along the lines of old fashioned and/or classic ghost stories. A classic collection, Lady Cynthia Asquith's Third Ghost Book, published in 1955. About a decade ago, I very much enjoyed M.R. James' collection, Ghost Stories of an Antiquary. These are stories where the supernatural aspect of the tales are often quite understated, but clearly believed by the protagonists. Shirley Jackson's story, "The Summer People," comes to mind as well. I've never read Stephen King. That's not a statement of policy. It's just that I've never been drawn to spending time with his novels as I perceive them to be third hand. When it comes to movies, I remember very much enjoying the classic old version of The Haunting of Hill House, but I have no inclination to watch movies that are basically a succession of people being killed (at least as portrayed by their TV ads and trailers). I understand that some of the higher quality of these movies are considered allegories for one societal ill or another, and I also am aware that some are very well made movies. To each his/her/their own.

When it comes to thrillers, by which I assume is meant spy/espionage/disaster novels, much depends upon how well they're written (well, duh) and whether or not the protagonist is believable. That latter part is not always essential if the former is top notch. Sometimes, I just like some escapist fun reading. If the situation is well set up and the protagonist takes relatively believable steps to solve the mystery, uncover the traitor or keep the world from being blown to smithereens by a super-evil master criminal, I can enjoy that. Too much graphic violence and I'm out, though. Hence, for example, my heaving of Greg Iles and his Penn Cage series over the side after a few books. Sometimes I'm just looking to have some fun, as in, say, John Buchan's classic Richard Hannay series (assuming one can work around the series' "of it's time" racism and anti-Semitism). Sometimes thriller can entail genuinely good writing that rises above genre. Graham Greene's "entertainments," for example, or what are probably the most commonly cited "quality" spy books, John le Carre's works.

I generally read around 5 or 6 mysteries per year. Again, they're mostly diversions for me. Sometimes you get very interesting historical fiction aspects, as in Philip Kerr's Bernie Gunther series, about a Berlin homocide detective pre-, during, and post-World War Two. Sometimes it's just about thinking along with whoever is trying to solve the crime. I'm always disappointed when the story gives us a detective spending 250 pages trying to solve a mystery, only to be presented on page 251 with a minor character who simply explains the whole thing. So instead of the protagonist working all book and then finally solving the mystery, we get a protagonist working the whole book to find the person who has known the answer the whole time. Well, if the journey is enjoyable I can forgive that, but that sort of ending is always a let down for me. Also, when it comes to mysteries, I don't mind if they're humorous. I'm thinking here along the lines of, say, the Thin Man movies.

>121 avaland: Avaland wrote: *These days the news brings all the horror anyone might crave....

I was just about to post the same thing. I have turned the news off for today. I've read Poe and Atwood and plenty of dark fiction, and paranormal, and good vs. evil etc. But tragedy + evil + suspense - no thank you. I can take any of those separately, but all together is too much for me.

It dawned on me last night that two extremely scary titles from the 70s hadn't yet made this list, and I'd have to classify them both as horror, though of very different types.

Rosemary's Baby, by Ira Levin, in which the main character (and therefore the reader) very slowly begins to realize what's going on, but is powerless to stop it...

... and The Exorcist, by William Peter Blatty, which quickly becomes out-of-control horrific -- and, again, the main characters seem powerless to defeat the evil forces controlling the child.

I remember carrying a copy of The Exorcist into the lunch room at work one day, and one of the guys I worked with asked me about it. (This was pre-movie, and the book was very hot at the time.) I said it was really good, but "don't read it after dark if you're home alone." And he laughed, because he was -- you know -- a guy, and tough, and big tough guys don't get scared by books.

Later that week, I ran into him again in the lunch room, and he said: "You know that book we talked about?" -- "Yes." -- (dramatic pause) ..."You were right!"

>125 LyndaInOregon: Another one of that ilk is The Omen. I was so terrified by the raven on the cover, that I had to put the book cover-down on the table whenever I stopped reading.

I read some horror as a teen in the 80s, but never went back to it. I do read some espionage thrillers, especially if they deal with WWII, but not a lot of mysteries or other suspense. I am particularly turned off by sadism and true crime. Books that that have scared me that I did like include Moon of the Crusted Snow, To Build a Fire, and Blindness.

>120 cindydavid4: I’ve put it on my TBR - just what I need - to be justified in what I am already thinking 😘

Thanks to a CR member for this question:


image from Carson Park Design

QUESTION 40: What Directs your Reading?

- current events?

- a backlog of books (TBR, "should read", book club)?

- your work and /or interests?

- recommendations from others?

- required reading?

- that series you're caught up in?

- that topic that's seized you?

- a particular author you follow, possibly as a completist?

- your mood?

- new publications?

- a self imposed goal, be it numbers, theme, or anything else?

- one of those chains where you read a book which naturally leads to another, then another...?

- random impulse (it was just sitting there when I walked by)?

- comfort and /or solace?

Mostly impulse and chains...and new books from authors I follow, though they're not always the _next_ book I read if I'm not ready to read them when I get them (right now I'm in the middle - well, last third - of an interesting but dense book. When I finish it, I may get to reading the book I just picked up from Amazon (pre-ordered it some time ago, it just came out). Or I may have been distracted by something else in the meantime...but I will read it soon, I've been looking forward to it for quite a while).

Recommendations will get me to _get_ a book, but not always to read it immediately.

OK, wait a minute, let me get the list.

- current events? NOOOOO! Well, OK, if I'm traveling somewhere and have a book from/set there, I might read it because of trip. But not from anything that gets into the news, too grim.

- a backlog of books (TBR, "should read", book club)? My TBR is every book I own and haven't read yet, plus rereads I want to do...so yes? Sort of? No book club. No should reads - I have an automatic shunt away from anything I'm "supposed" to read (including readalongs and challenges that I join because I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy them...sigh).

- your work and /or interests? Um. Sort of? Again, I'll _get_ a book because, well, it interests me. Whether I'll read it in anything like close time...probably not.

- recommendations from others? As above - to get a book yes, to read it maybe.

- required reading? Nope. Don't have any, avoid it as far as possible.

- that series you're caught up in? Yep. That falls under chains, and also authors I follow.

- that topic that's seized you? Interests, and chains. If it's a topic I've ever been interested in before, I probably have a bunch of books on it to read...

- a particular author you follow, possibly as a completist? Yep, lots - for owning the books, not necessarily for what I read next.

- your mood? Definitely. _Which_ book I pick up next is probably most determined by this.

- new publications? Yep, new books by my authors...but as above, that makes me _get_ the book and _may_ make me read it.

- a self imposed goal, be it numbers, theme, or anything else? Not...really? Well, I do set goals, but basically numbers ones, so any book fits in it. I tried TIOLI once and it activated my flinch from set reading.

- one of those chains where you read a book which naturally leads to another, then another...? Lots of times - sometimes series, sometimes subject matter, sometimes author...and sometimes "huh, this book mentions this thing that reminds me of this other book..."

- random impulse (it was just sitting there when I walked by)? Frequently, when I don't have a next book in mind. If I really don't know what I want to read next, I'll use the Calibre Companion "find a random book" (or LT's version, less often) - I may or may not (mostly not) read the first one it comes up with, but either the choice will trigger an idea, or I'll keep using it until one I want comes up.

- comfort and /or solace? That's mostly rereading, and sometimes bingeing on favorite authors/series. But it's also, often, what presents itself when I'm feeling like reading but have no idea what I want.

TL;DR
Not challenges or other prescribed reading.
Recommendations, new books, topics of interest will make me _get_ the book, may or may not read it immediately.
Mood/impulse/it was handy are the most likely triggers for next book - or chains from the last one I read (series, author, subject, random internal trigger).

really, all of the above. I get great recs here and elsewhere but I dont nec read it until Im ready for it in some way:mood, energy,time of day, weather.....I dont do required reading so dont read all the books from my RL book grooup. Its only the last couple of years here that I have participated in challenges, but dont always follow through, depends on the book. reading chains is indeed my cuppa tea, whether its authors or topics or fiction to non. This esp applies to travel narrative and history non fiction. I tend not to read about current events, I have my source of news and are pretty much caught up. Tho books like prequel which includes history is more likely to appeal to me . And if I do choose a current event book, the author is probably by a journalist

I rarely read contemporary fiction. I’m sure great novels are constantly being published. I just don’t know what they are, and neither does anyone else, yet. Look at the list of Pulitzer Prize-winning novels for the last hundred years. Half of them I guarantee you’ve never heard of. In many cases you’ve never heard of the author either. It takes time for genuine merit to reveal itself. Situation now is made worse by gradual disappearance of professional reviewers. Novelists now review each other’s novels, and—unsurprisingly—-they’re all great! I don’t have many decades left and I don’t want to waste my reading time on this year’s version of The Able McLaughlins. Anna Karenina is a better investment.

Q40:
- current events?
Rarely. I did read a few books about the background to Brexit, for instance, but I’m generally much more likely to be reading about things that happened a long time ago.

- a backlog of books (TBR, "should read", book club)?
Yes. Reducing the TBR, and especially the older end of it, is a constant goal. I’m generally ahead of target on book-club reading, to the extent that I have half forgotten about the book by the time we discuss it.

- your work and /or interests?
Happily, I’m retired now, so work doesn’t play much part. When I was still working, books didn’t play much part, apart from legal texts I had to refer to.
Most of my interests start from books and move out from there into the “real world”, but there are a few that go the other way. Maybe music is the most obvious place where I’ve read books because of a non-book stimulus.

- recommendations from others?
Of course.

- required reading?
Not for a long time, but I am a former literature student, so I’ve done my share. And a lot of that has sparked an interest in reading other related things. I do occasionally still read classic critical texts which I’d only dipped into before.

- that series you're caught up in?
Sometimes, but not much of my reading is from series.

- that topic that's seized you?
Yes, that might well be the biggest provoker of reading choices. I do keep falling into “projects”.

- a particular author you follow, possibly as a completist?
There are one or two authors where I’ll pick up their latest book when it comes out. Not many, these days: a lot of my favourite authors are long dead.

- your mood?
Probably more involved in reading/not reading choices than in book selection, but there are times when I “feel like” a detective story or some comic writing, other times when I’ll take on a bit of heavy-duty non-fiction.

- new publications?
Sometimes. I’m not very diligent about reading book reviews, but I do occasionally notice a new release in the press or on the display tables in a bookshop or at the library.

- a self imposed goal, be it numbers, theme, or anything else?
Not really, except in things like keeping up with the TBR.

- one of those chains where you read a book which naturally leads to another, then another...?
Yes!

- random impulse (it was just sitting there when I walked by)?
Yes! Little free libraries play quite a part in this, and I do often pick up oddities that catch my eye in bookshops or the library too.

- comfort and /or solace?
Yes, when required. On occasion I might find myself hitting the poetry shelf or the P G Wodehouse…

QUESTION 40: What Directs your Reading?

No:
- current events
- that series you're caught up in
- required reading
- one of those chains where you read a book which naturally leads to another, then another...
- comfort and /or solace

Rarely:
- a particular author you follow, possibly as a completist
- your mood
- recommendations from others

I don't do the "completist" thing, but I do come back to some authors eventually, with a vague idea of reading most of their books. Mood is rarely a thing for me in the sense that I am in a mood for something light or whatever, but I guess I probably pass over books feeling like "not now" and that's probably a mood thing. Recommendations - I don't read a lot of reviews (including here), I tend to skim for a general idea/feelings about a book and hope to not get more information than that.

Yes:
- a backlog of books (TBR, "should read", book club)
- your work and /or interests
- random impulse (it was just sitting there when I walked browsed by)
- a self imposed goal, be it numbers, theme, or anything else
- that topic that's seized you
- new publications

"Should read" for me is my rather desultory efforts toward reading the 1001 Books list, Pulitzer winners (I have a terrible record with those, it's like a books-Ursula-will-hate prize), Booker, Nobel, etc. Interests mostly applies to non-fiction (my armchair mountaineering/polar exploring) and also covers "that topic that's seized you". But I don't read those in a row, it's more like most years probably have a book on one of those topics. A self-imposed goal kind of fits in with the "should read" category with lists, but also includes things like this year reading books from Japan. My big source of "direction", such as it is, is random impulse and that drives me toward new publications - I look through the "just added" collections in my libraries in Libby. That isn't all new releases, of course, but it includes a high percentage of them.

Beowulf on the Beach lists 50 books from the Bible and Homer to Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian. Each year I set a theme around two books and plan out my reading around that. (This year it’s Canterbury Tales and Native Son by Richard Wright.)

Also I give myself a year to read the Booker longlist, and I co-run a Wharton group on Litsy (which started as a Willa Cather group).

And I’m trying to read some of my TBR pile.

Finally, I allow some randomness. 🙂

Mood plays the biggest factor in my choice of book to read, however, I prime the pump so to speak, by having books from a region (Africa this year) or topic (like a reading globally theme) on a bookshelf directly in front of my reading seat so I see them first and frequently. These general open-ended challenges work best for me (when they align with my interests).

I joined a book club this year, but didn't read all the books, although when I did read a book I didn't think I'd like, I sometimes did (Killers of the Flower Moon). I do try to prioritize these books, as well as Early Reviewer books.

My general preferences dictate a lot of my reading: translated lit, lit from around the world, books about WWII and the Holocaust. Frequently these books will chain together, like earlier this year I read a couple of books about WWII and Hiroshima from the Japanese perspective and then Fallout about the US coverup of the atomic bombings.

I rarely join a group read unless it's a book I was reading anyway. I don't read a lot of series, although if I read one, I usually read several. I don't necessarily follow an author I like, although it seems like a good thing. I don't feel like I need to read an author's complete backlog, I read the ones that appeal. Because I'm homeschooling my nieces, I read a lot of children's lit these days, but don't record it on LT, other than acquisitions (on my labfs39kids account).

QUESTION 40: What Directs your Reading?

Over the years sooo many things have directed my reading, but generally these days I follow my instincts and curiosities. I note that I surround myself with possibilities. Right now I've been reading poetry, some of which intersects with my reading of Ukrainian lit.*

Michael (dukedom) answers the same question with "whim".

#40 All of the things given, except perhaps "Required reading." Unless belonging to a book club is required reading.

>136 avaland: How do the "possibilities" work: variety of selection, proximity to your reading chair, spread around the house...?

This question was prompted by new bookshelves!



This image from Time Out is of one of my favourite bookstores, Voltaire and Rousseau in Glasgow.

QUESTION 41: How do you deal with your TBR books, in whatever medium?

Are they together in one place?

Are they categorized and shelved with other books you have read already in that category?

Are they somewhere where they can call out to you, or are they buried away in piles?

Are your downloaded TBR books organized in any fashion? If so, how?

Do you try to fool yourself into thinking the problem isn't really that bad, by scattering them here and there around your home?

How big does the stash have to get before it becomes a problem in your mind, or does it ever reach that stage?

Tell all!

First of all, I'm going to come in late on QUESTION 40: What Directs your Reading?

My overall reading scheme is a rotation:
1) a book from my own collection, somewhere around 1.500 strong
2) a book from my "short" TBR stack (books I've been given as a gift, or purchased with the idea of reading "soon," plus the next entry in the several series I'm in the midst of. Including all remaining series entries, I think this list is currently 84 books long.
3) go out an buy a book to read

- current events?
Only very infrequently, although there might be one or two on my short TBR stack.

- a backlog of books (TBR, "should read", book club)?
See category 1, above. I was also in a monthly book club for a couple of years, which I enjoyed, but I left that group when my wife and I moved from California to New York in June.

- your work and /or interests?
I'm retired, but as far as particular interests, I have fairly robust shelves for books about music, baseball and history that I select from frequently.

- recommendations from others?
From my wife, two or three times a year. Otherwise, not that often, although I do occasionally go on the lookout for books I see widely praised here in CR and elsewhere on LT.

- required reading?
I currently have weekly reading to do for the Latin American History class I'm auditing at Columbia University.

- that series you're caught up in?
Not, "caught up," no, but plenty of series reading in my "short TBR" stack. (I'm not presently following any currently active series.) At the moment I'm in the midst of:
* Walter Jon Williams' Hardwired science fiction series (1 book to go)
* E.F. Benson's hilarious Mapp and Lucia series (3 books to go)
* Marcel Proust's classic In Search of Lost Time series (6 books to go)
* John D. McDonald's Travis McGee private eye series (14 books to go)
* Richard Stark's (a.k.a. Donald Westlake) Parker crime series (16 books to go!)
* Don Tracy's obscure 1960s/70s Giff Speer crime series (3 books to go)
* C.P. Snow's Strangers and Brothers series (4 books to go)
* I.J. Parker's Sugawara Akitada Mysteries series (a 19 book mystery series taking place in feudal Japan, but I've decided only to read the first four of them, of which I have just one more remaining)
* Timothy Fuller's obscure, comedic 1940s Jupiter Jones mystery series (2 books remaining)
* Philip Kerr's Bernie Gunther noir series, set before, during and after WW2 (3 books remaining)
* John le Carre's famous George Smiley series (8 books remaining)

- that topic that's seized you?
Over the past three years I've done a lot of reading about African American history and the history of racial injustice in the U.S.

- a particular author you follow, possibly as a completist?
In terms of living authors whose books I buy as soon as they are published, I'd have to say, no, not since Philip Roth stopped publishing. A couple of years back I completed my project of reading through all of Joseph Conrad's novels, one per year, in order of publication. I'm now in the midst of reading through all of Isaac B. Singer's novels, two per year.

- new publications?
I will sometimes buy something new and particularly interesting and add it to the short TBR stack.

- a self imposed goal, be it numbers, theme, or anything else?
I try for 50 books per year, and 30 books "off the shelve." I usually reach the former but rarely the latter.

- random impulse (it was just sitting there when I walked by)?
Yes, often, though in my own house, not out in bookstores. Well, sometimes out in bookstores.

- comfort and /or solace?
Sometimes a book gives comfort and/or solace, though I rarely purposefully select a book for that reason. Sometimes I purposefully look for a book that will provide light reading, a break from the cares of the day and/or the troubles presented in histories. I guess that fits here.

QUESTION 41: How do you deal with your TBR books, in whatever medium?

Are they together in one place?
Most of the books in my TBR category are together on several shelves in my home office.

Are they categorized and shelved with other books you have read already in that category?
Usually not until after I've read them. Then, if they're keepers, they go into general population on my shelves.

Are they somewhere where they can call out to you, or are they buried away in piles?
Who says that a book buried away in a pile cannot call out to me?

Are your downloaded TBR books organized in any fashion? If so, how?
NA. Paper books only for me so far.

Do you try to fool yourself into thinking the problem isn't really that bad, by scattering them here and there around your home?
Problem? What problem? :) My systems and lists give me pleasure.

How big does the stash have to get before it becomes a problem in your mind, or does it ever reach that stage?
It's not the books or the lists that are a problem. I could use another 100 years of life expectancy, though.

Q41: The TBR

I used to scatter unread books about the place at random and shelve them (still unread) when they started to be a nuisance, but one of the effects of joining LT all those years ago was to make me “TBR-aware” for the first time (another effect was to increase the size of the pile massively too…). Since then I quarantine unread books, on a separate buffer area of shelving, where I can see at a glance how big the pile is getting. That seems to help, and I’ve managed to keep the size of the buffer to around 100 books for quite some time now. Which is probably enough to ensure that I’ll run out of food and water before I run out of books if there should be a major disaster.

What’s probably a sign of mild derangement is the way I keep the unread books shelved strictly in purchase order, so that I can (in theory) focus on the oldest ones, which are on a low shelf within easy reach. In practice I’ve learnt to leap on the kickstool to pick the juicy stuff off the “incoming” end of the queue, and there are always a few books at the “old” end that have been unread for years and years.

I refuse to consider ebooks, audiobooks, or other non-physical media as part of the TBR pile. I don’t purchase ebooks until I’m ready to start reading them, anyway.

I try to train myself to accept that it is perfectly permissible to take a library book back unread and never count it as having been a TBR of any kind…

>141 rocketjk: It's not the books or the lists that are a problem. I could use another 100 years of life expectancy, though.
Hear, hear! I think you speak for all of us there.

Yeah, where to store 660 or so books? Almost all my tbr is physical books. As ebooks are always available, I try to only buy them when I’m about to start reading them (or start listening to them).

So i have several books shelves of unread books that I fully intend to read. Including a massive collection in our office on wall shelves, one tall bookshelf in the master bedroom, and … hmmm … three bookshelves in the guest room. I think that’s most of them, but there are other here and there. And piles beside the bed.

QUESTION 41

Are they together in one place?
The TBRs I own are all in my bedroom, where they reside on the bookcase headboard and on the shelves of a small freestanding bookcase. Library TBRs are on a special shelf in the living room so they remain visible and get returned promptly.

The only "organization" is that the newcomers get added to the right-hand end of the shelf in the bookcase. And when I'm ready for a new selection, I pick three of the oldest (far left end of the headboard shelf) and three of the newest (from the bookcase) and stack them up, alternating old-to-new, on top of the headboard. Everybody then shifts to the left to eliminate the empty shelf space and make room for the inevitable newcomers.

Usually I read them straight down from the top of that stack to the bottom. Exceptions are ... when an author or genre repeats itself in the stack, I generally shuffle so I'm not reading two whodunnits or two biographies in a row, or when I look at the top title and realize I'm just not in a mental place right now to tackle that one.

Are your downloaded TBR books organized in any fashion? If so, how?
I've mostly begun downloading ebooks only when I anticipate a trip, since that's when I do most of my ebook reading. I've discovered that downloads get lost in the shuffle far too often. Pulling up the library on my Kindle shows the last dozen downloads, and when I scroll through the full list, I re-discover things I downloaded months ago and promptly forgot about.

How big does the stash have to get before it becomes a problem in your mind, or does it ever reach that stage?
The book stash and the yarn stash have to fight it out between themselves. It's only a problem if I can't find room to sit down somewhere to enjoy My Preciousssssss.

But I will admit that most books come in, get read, and go out again either to the swap group (Shameless Plug) or to the charity shop. Maybe one in a hundred goes into the Permanent Library collection, which is a whole 'nother critter.

Are they together in one place?
I have a a book case with three shelves in my Az room, where I usually sit and read if the weather keeps me inside. I can generally keep about 50 books there

Are they categorized and shelved with other books you have read already in that category?

They are set apart from others. that are in our office or bedrooms

are they somewhere where they can call out to you, or are they buried away in piles?

they are on shelves across from my reading chair , they dont generally call out to me, coz im too busy reading! I will look through them, usually when Im adding a book, to see if I want to read an older one first

Are your downloaded TBR books organized in any fashion? If so, how
if you are talking about ebooks, Im relatively new with this I keep unread in my library and go to it when Im wanting a new read. But I really need to keep track of the ones I use for groups here, so I dont forget. Not sure how I do that yet unless its using pen and paper list

Do you try to fool yourself into thinking the problem isn't really that bad, by scattering them here and there around your home?

They are all in one place but I do admit to sometimes stacking them along with various magazine by my table and when it becomes tripping hazard I move them to another spot in the room

How big does the stash have to get before it becomes a problem in your mind, or does it ever reach that stage?

problem, what problem? I go through all of my shelves once a year to see if any need to go in for trade, or to charity. The TBR shelves are a different story; I tend to keep them on the shelves for way too long when I finally just give up and read, or take them to trade

My books, read or unread, are shelved alphabetically by author, except for the 177 cookbooks, 80 or so books described as “Scripture and Liturgy,” and a similar number of odd-sized books I’ve labelled “Coffee table.” I try to reserve piles for current reading only.

I buy a lot more books (well, I used to - now I buy a lot more ebooks) than I can immediately read. More than half of the books in my house, and ditto my computer, are unread - I _intend_ to read...at least most of them. So...my TBR is either invisible or ridiculous or both.

For the physical books I own but haven't read...a great many of them are in boxes under my (loft) bed. I have them listed (most of them) in LT, along with which box they're in, but they're not that easy to get at so it adds a complication to the reading. I'm (still) thinking about switching that - now that I mostly read ebooks, it would work a lot better to have the physical books I know I want to own (for now at least) in boxes and the books I haven't read and don't know if I want to own permanently out on shelves so I could see them. But it hasn't happened yet.

For my ebooks - I'll grab them when I see interesting ones on sale etc. For the ones I _know_ I'll enjoy - by authors I love, or in series ditto - I tag them with _0ReadNext (0 (zero) so it appears at the top, underscore for "thing I need to do to this book" (I use the prefixes on tags to collect them into groups)). This...kind of works. When I finish a book and don't have another one immediately on deck, I'll check that tag...but there's some that have had said tag for a good many years. Sigh. Other than that, I sort by obtained date and scan through for something interesting, or use the Find a Random Book tools. One nice thing about the enormous TBR, there are a lot of books to read...one bad thing ditto, of course.

I noticed years ago that if I didn't read a book within a few weeks of buying it, it usually didn't get read at all. I concluded from this that it would be better to buy 2-3 books at most each time I made a trip to the bookshop, so I had no TBR list as such. Of course, that was before, well, lots of things, including LT.

Now that I read almost exclusively e-book, it should be easy to only buy a book just before starting to read it. I did that for some time, but lately, not so much. Especially since I've started subscribing to Kobo Plus, things have gotten slightly out of hand.

According to Kobo, I have 162 "unread" books and 112 "reading", and that's about as organized as things get. They are shown in inverse chronological order, so when a book gets pushed down to the third or fourth page there isn't much chance I will remember that I at one time intended to read it. I do go down the list occasionally, especially the "reading" one, to retrieve one of the many short story collections I have under way. Or books that I really should finish one day.

In a word, it's a mess. I don't mind all that much to be honest.

>139 SassyLassy: QUESTION 41: How do you deal with your TBR books, in whatever medium?

Around 2009 I realized that having a bunch of unread books felt like a burden on me, so I got rid of most of them unread and kept some that I thought I would actually read.

Since then, I extremely rarely buy physical books. When I buy them they're almost always just readable versions that I'll get rid of again as soon as I'm finished with them, in a little free library or similar. Now my reading is mostly digital books, and I've never bought one of those in my life. I just check them out of the library.

No TBR, no problem.

>149 FlorenceArt: in the same. If I don’t read a book within a few weeks, I forget about it and tit goes one rung down on the TBR list.

I used to love all my books I had a wall of them, double-shelved. I would put the older probability never-to-read-again at the back of each row.

I tried to arrange the front ones in alphabetical order but was too lazy to keep it up.

Then once I could no longer read print I gave most to charity. This was about three years ago and I really miss living in a place without a wall of books.

I did keep a few, illustrated art books and some of sentimental value.

>142 thorold: I remembered that I made a spreadsheet for retrospectively calculating the evolution of the TBR pile's height and age (average time elapsed since acquisition date for TBR books). This is the evolution since I started keeping proper track of reading dates, with snapshots on the 1st of January each year. I do seem to have succeeded in bringing the old end under some sort of control compared to how it was, but I'm still averaging about two years on the pile...

My TBRs fall into categories. There are the ones I want to read sooner rather than later. They use to occupy the top shelf of a bookcase across from my reading spot (so I would see them constantly). But now that shelf has overflowed to the top of that bookcase as well as stacks atop the adjacent bookcase. TBR books that I intend to read "someday" are shelved with the others either alphabetically by author (fiction) or subject area (nonfiction). The exceptions are a few poetry collections and short story/essay anthologies that I have put on a shelf in my bedroom fully intending to mimic Jerry and use as between book (or before sleep) fillers. They have been there a couple of years...

QUESTION 41: How do you deal with your TBR books, in whatever medium?

I deal only in paper books. Currently, I'm doing a purge which is up to about 100 books (will pass on to Friends of the Library for their sale)

These days I don't plan my reading; and "free-range" reading seems to be working fine. Currently, I'm on a Ukraine jag (fiction, poetry and some nonfiction) which is turning into an obsession for Serhiy Zhadan's work. It's piling up on the sectional where I like to read, particularly in the mornings.

Wow, it's been a while since I've answered one of these questions, hasn't it? Well, here goes!

I currently have all my TBR books in one room. I used to have a spare bed in there, because my mother absolutely insisted I had to keep it around for her to sleep on when she visited, but she now lives across town from me with her own bed, and has her own guestroom to accommodate any of our relatives that might visit. Plus the bed was approximately as old as my not-at-all-spring-chicken self, and the ancient mattress was honestly an unkind thing to inflict on guests. So when the wooden frame finally collapsed, I gleefully threw the whole thing out and filled the room with books instead. It was very nice, because I used to have the TBR shelves in the living room... and the hallway... and part of the kitchen. Now, my hallway is much more navigable, and the unread books aren't in the living room constantly staring at me accusingly for not having gotten to them yet, distracting me from the books I'm currently trying to read. It's much tidier, and much more fun and easy to browse through, and I am much happier now.

I still have them organized the same way I used to, though. Fiction divided into a mass-market paperback section and a full-sized section, each organized by author; and non-fiction similarly separated but organized loosely by subject. Plus much smaller sections for humor, poetry, and Doctor Who books. (I have a lot of Doctor Who books.)

I don't have any downloaded TBR books. I read pretty much everything in hardcopy.

As for when it becomes a problem... Well, I want to say never, but I think that level of denial may be growing somewhat harder to sustain. But, hey, as long as they all fit in the one room, it can't be too bad, right?

Interesting answers all to the eternal TBR solution, and it's good to know we are each in good company.
>155 bragan: Welcome back - great story about the room. I just reclaimed one as well.

>152 thorold: I think for many of us, a finished graph like that would be a scary thing to behold!

>144 LyndaInOregon: You remind me of all those other stashes many of us have, which is a whole other organization problem!

QUESTION 42: Challenging Yourself

Karl Schlogel said of a new topic for him, It is an act of self-empowerment... to take the liberty of writing on a topic you previously knew almost nothing about. Any concerns were overridden by an initial impulse that proved to be more than just a fleeting impression. This impulse was to follow a trail in the kind of pursuit that develops its own drive, its own pull, which is not exhausted and extinguished until the trail has been uncovered and the story has been told.

Substituting "reading on a topic" for "writing on a topic" in Schlogel's first sentence, does this apply to any of your reading? Do you ever set out to deliberately challenge yourself with a new topic, or author, or collection, and read until you feel you have at least accomplished something, if perhaps not mastered it.

>157 SassyLassy: It's not something I have done much in the past; the stuff that I enjoy reading gives me more books than I will ever possibly finish, so I don't feel any real need to stretch into new areas.

But doing the LT BingoDog this year made me stretch a little bit, and I'm planning to dive more heavily into other parts of the Category Challenge next year, which will stretch me more. The HistoryCAT, in particular, will lead me into eras and topics I don't often get to (the Byzantine Empire! spies! Regency England!). We shall see if the stretching leaves me feeling rewarded, or frustrated that I didn't get to the other books that I would probably have read in their place.

Books have often sparked my curiousity for different topics and I will find what ever I can read about them. Its not a challenge, just something that interests me or moves me to look more.

Yeah, like Cindy, I don’t like the word challenge, but i’ll go after some things - my reading themes. It’s deliberate. I even plan how to create some curiosity.

>155 bragan: "as long as they all fit in the one room, it can't be too bad, right?"

Absolutely. As long as they all fit in one room!

>161 LyndaInOregon: LOL. I love it!

QUESTION 42: Challenging Yourself

I don't read in a completist way, or to master something—it's more a pursuit of interests and a love of lists. For instance, I like to read about different places in the world through translated literature, so I track that on the Global Challenge. I'm curious about the Nobel Laureates, so I track that too. But in both cases, I only go to the lists when I read something that is pertinent. The lists don't drive my reading. Last year, however, I joined Paul Cranswick's Asian Novel Challenge and his African one this year since it dovetails nicely with my interest in world literature. Joining these challenges was inspirational and I got lots of ideas, but I didn't feel compelled to participate every month on schedule. Smaller goals or interests include brushing up on my French so I can read in the language again, reading books about the Holocaust, and graphic novels. Occasionally I read down a rabbit hole and will read two or three books on the same topic, but then usually move on.

>161 LyndaInOregon: I like the way you think!

Oh, and while I'm here, I suppose I should answer question #157, too. Look at me, I'm on a roll! Although I don't know that I have an especially interesting answer to this one.

I'll read about pretty much any topic that seems vaguely interesting to me, and seldom worry about it being "too challenging." Although that has occasionally led to me reading things that really are pitched at people more expert in a topic than I am, or are dense enough to make the ol' noggin hurt a little, but even then I inevitably power through.

What I don't do is to fall down a rabbit hole and read a whole bunch of books about one particular subject all at once, until I feel like I've mastered it. I like mixing things up in my reading far too much for that. If I am interested in a topic, I'll come back to it eventually, and if I'm really interested I'll come back repeatedly, but I'm unlikely to launch into any giant research projects.

Q 42: Challenging Yourself

Yes, like Dan and Cindy, I’m uncomfortable with the “ch-word”: setting yourself a book-challenge feels a bit like challenging yourself to eat at least one piece of cake every day…

But I do sometimes get into at least semi-organised reading projects, trying to explore some less familiar territory in a structured way. I see that as much the same kind of activity as walking a long-distance trail. You put up with the occasional boring stretches in order to get a relatively painless introduction to some new walking areas you don’t know, and for the ultimate (and rather ephemeral) satisfaction of being able to say that you’ve completed the whole thing.

>164 bragan: You are cracking me up!
--------------------

Q42: I can't remember any challenges I participated in or any I created for myself during the years here on LT (since 2006) . I'm just a free-range reader at heart. Often one books leads to another OR I get interested in an author or subject (maybe because I'm left-handed? ha ha)

For example, I'm on a reading jag on Ukraine (mostly fiction & poetry).

btw, when I first created the group "Reading Globally" (2007? 8?) it was to track my reading of Africa. I wanted to read a book from each country which wasn't as easy to find the books as it is now. That's probably as close as I come to a "challenge".

I don't like the word challenge either. The words comfort zone get my adrenaline level up, and don't get me started on the 1000 X you must Y before you die. All these are just ways to put pressure on people, like we don't get enough of that already?

Anyways.

I read for pleasure. And one of the things that give me pleasure is learning stuff, so I do read about lots of stuff, and this leads to more reading about related stuff. It's all pretty disorganized, and when I get interested in a subject I will most likely end up with a huge list of books and articles, and read only a few of them. I rather enjoy the random aspect of it, but I don't get to check any boxes or complete any lists, and that's fine with me.

Re: Challenge: There are lots of ways to consider the word, of course, and I doubt I'll be saying anything here that hasn't already been said, or alluded to, by others. Anyway . . .

I don't "challenge myself" by purposefully reading books I know will be unenjoyable for one reason or another. I fairly often read books on subjects I know nothing about, but because I am interested in the information rather than as something I have to push myself to do. I've done that enough in my life that I don't consider that a challenge in and of itself. When I was in a reading group, I sometimes got about a quarter of the way through the monthly group selection and realized I didn't like the book, but kept plowing on for the sake of the group discussion. That was sort of challenging, I guess, in that sense of the word. Sometimes I'll grab a classic to read and find the language challenging, so in that case, yes, I guess that's me challenging myself for the sake of getting another classic under my belt. Usually I find enough to enjoy there to make the experience worthwhile.

A while ago, as most of you are by now tired of hearing, I did decide to read through (and add to) a list of books I'd received about U.S. race relations and African American history, reading one of those volumes about every third book I read. That was a decision, but I didn't consider it a "challenge." I didn't have any reluctance about doing it nor did I doubt my interest in reading through the list. Maybe that's just a question of semantics, though.

It's interesting to me that so many of us see a challenge as a negative thing, that it must mean that whatever we are being challenged with is stressful or has to be something that we won't enjoy.

I like this definition of challenge by Merriam-Webster: to arouse or stimulate especially by presenting with difficulties. For me, challenges encourage, inspire, and motivate. I think where we bog down is in the tracking or pressure to complete external challenges. If we take that piece away, I think we all challenge ourselves. Some in more structured ways like Dan's reading projects, Barry's reading by birth year, Danielle's 1001, and others simply by choosing a wide range of books that broaden and stimulate us, like Lois's exploration of Ukrainian poetry. I'm not sure challenge has to be a four letter word.

no it doesnt have to; and I agree with you, we do all challenge ourselves. But for me challenge from the outside feels like a requirement, as you say external challenges. not sure how it came to be that way; interesting question

>170 cindydavid4: I’m not into challenges and I think it is because I have an aversion to being told what to do. Of course I know that’s not the intent. I was always a competitive person and have been challenged, but the challenges have always been self-inflicted.

It's fascinating to me to see the interpretations of the word "challenge" here. It has never been a negative word for me, so it was somewhat of a surprise to see so many perceive it as such.

I like the definition given in >169 labfs39:. I think if we don't challenge ourselves sometimes with something new, be it in our reading or any other activity, we are in danger of stultifying. We need to get our minds (and bodies) working in new ways.

>170 cindydavid4: mentions and differentiates external and internal challenges. It is the internal ones that we set for ourselves that I was thinking of, as in I really want to learn more about (or even study) X this year, along the lines of those LTers >169 labfs39: mentions. These structured goals to me are internal challenges.

i agree, tho I just call them interests. but basically the same thing

>157 SassyLassy: This impulse was to follow a trail in the kind of pursuit that develops its own drive, its own pull, which is not exhausted and extinguished until the trail has been uncovered and the story has been told.

This probably sums up all my reading.

Q42: Though I am mostly a free-range reader, I remember one year I paid special attention to point of view in the novels I read. I didn't come to any earth shattering conclusions, but discovered how tricky it is to write well from different points of view.

I like Lisa's (>169 labfs39:) definition of challenge as being from internal motivation - on that level I might read 2-3 books on a topic that interests me, but I'm lousy at "completeing" a challenge.

I do like the Bingo Dog challenge that is part of the Category Challenge group, and enjoy scoring 2-3 bingos a year on that - but I never finish the card like some people do.

I would restrict the word “challenge” to a book or books I would have ordinarily found unappealing. In my case that means anything involving fantasy or science-fiction and by extension works of an allegorical nature. I also tend to avoid contemporary fiction, not because none of it is good, but because it’s too soon to know what is of enduring merit and what is a waste of time. Look at a list of, say, Pulitzer Prize-winning fiction 1918-present to see how many once critically-acclaimed novels have not found a lasting audience. But occasionally there are external factors, as when my Reading Group decided to read some ancient and mediaeval epics, or someone else’s book club is reading a recent best-seller and I want to discuss it with him or her.
Otherwise I often try to follow up a topic that has grabbed my attention by reading related books I have accumulated over the years but never read. But then I have to acquire new books to fill in gaps. Just keep adding bookshelves.

Such an interesting discussion - I don't react negatively to the word "challenge" at all. It doesn't have to be something I don't want to do, it just has to be something that stretches me in some way. I would say that this year I challenged myself to read a bunch of books from Japan. It's not something I would have normally done; I rarely focus my reading in any particular direction.

This year’s Africa Novel Challenge has broadened my reading habits, encouraged me to read books I’ve had lying around unread for years, and introduced me to the always diverting LT member Paul Cranswick.

>178 booksaplenty1949: This year’s Africa Novel Challenge has broadened my reading habits, encouraged me to read books I’ve had lying around unread for years

Exactly what my idea of a reading challenge is, except it would probably also compel me to get still more books!

Well it's St Andrew's Day, not Burns Night, but close enough to inspire this excerpt and next question:



QUESTION 43: Insight

...
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:...

Which fictional characters do you think fail completely "to see oursels as ithers see us"?

Do any excel at knowing themselves?

Is there a particular quality that those characters who fail are missing? Conversely, if anyone excels, what is it that contributes to that insight?

_____________

Here is Robert Carlyle reading the entire poem: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPEaw06SKPk

Q43: Insight

Tricky, because the nature of narrative fiction means that we usually get to see characters either from the inside or from the outside, but hardly ever both. It’s not really meaningful to talk about Sherlock Holmes’s ability to see himself from the outside, for instance, because we only ever get to see him from Doctor Watson’s perspective. Although the drug addiction and violin-playing are obviously meant to tell us that he isn’t quite at ease with the high expectations he has built up around him.

The example of total failure of insight that immediately springs to mind is Peter Kien in Auto-da-fé, the obsessed bibliophile who has absolutely no insight into what motivates the other people around him and how he appears to them. At a different level, Jane Austen’s Emma would be an obvious case of a character who gets the world around her completely wrong, although of course she’s only the most famous of a huge class of comic characters who work the same way.

I wonder if a character with a perfect ability to see themselves from the outside without any illusions could actually be a believable human. Or have any ability to function in the world without going mad. Oddly, Bertie Wooster is one who comes to mind as getting very near that level: he necessarily doesn’t usually grasp the machinations of the other characters around him, but he does have an astonishing depth of modesty and humility in his view of his own limitations and the ways that others perceive them.

>178 booksaplenty1949: ditto, and last years Asian Challenge did the same thing for me, esp learning the histories of the lesser known places. Kind of sat back the last few months on the African challege, but I have some already for next week

>181 thorold: Tapped on the title and discovered I actually own Auto-da-fé. Duh. Entered in 2011, I note. Now I will challenge myself to read it.

>183 booksaplenty1949: It’s the sort of book that happens to. I’m sure my copy spent four or five years on the shelf before I had the courage to open it.

Still thinking about characters with deep insight into themselves: the more I think about it, the more difficult Burns’s scenario seems. Obviously, what he meant by his poem was just to get readers to stop and think about aspects of their own behaviour that might be irritating to others; he doesn’t really propose a world in which the walls of consciousness break down and everyone always knows what everyone else is thinking about them — that’s the stuff of science-fiction novels about telepaths, and utterly frightening. And not necessarily very helpful: in the real world, other people get us wrong as often as we get them wrong. When we do get glimpses of what other people think of us, some of them will always seem to be unfairly negative and others will appear to have an unreasonably high opinion of us.

There are plenty of characters who are always obsessing about how they come across to the outside world — from Hamlet and Leopold Bloom down — but since they are literary characters and not real people, we can’t really say whether they get themselves right. All we know about them is what the author tells us. There are also plenty of characters who set out to deceive the world about what they are “really” like, something they only reveal to the reader. Harry Flashman might be an extreme example of that: military hero and Victorian sex-symbol to the outside world, bully, coward and shameless opportunist in his own view of himself. Maybe the comic context is what lets him get away with such a high degree of self-exposure.

>181 thorold: Hmmm - and that brings to mind Father Brown, who certainly sees others clearly and I _think_ sees himself the same way.

>184 thorold: >185 jjmcgaffey: Love the idea of Flashman in this context, and on the other side, also Father Brown.

I wonder if there is redemption for those characters who appear odious to others only to have a revelation and correction of course. Dickens's Sidney Carton and Ebenezer Scrooge come to mind, but there is no way for the reader to find out if it would have persisted in Carton's case, or if it did in Scrooge's.

>186 SassyLassy: Since these are not real people, we have to look at the apparent artistic intentions of the writer. A story in which a mean-spirited, grasping man experiences a series of supernatural revelations about his past, present, and future which reveal the dire consequences of his behaviour and cause him to embrace change—-and then later decide “Oh what the heck, who cares if Tiny Tim dies and everyone hates me—-nothing’s more important than money!” is not A Christmas Carol. Another writer might explore such a theme, in the spirit in which the author of The Wind Done Gone revisits the events of Gone with the Wind from the slaves’ perspective, but that would be a different book. Dickens assures us that Scrooge was a changed man from that day forward, and if we do not see that this is the inevitable arc of the story then he has failed as a writer.

>187 booksaplenty1949: I do believe Dickens when he says Scrooge remained a changed man, but who knows what can happen in life, real or otherwise?!

The Wind Done Gone is a new title to me, and sounds like one I should read, since Gone with the Wind is so well known.

>188 SassyLassy: Absolutely in real life we have to expect the unexpected. That’s why we enjoy reading literature, with its coherent structure, so different from our experience of daily life.

A recent article in The New York Times* prompted this question. It dealt in part with reading fiction as something that helps memory.



QUESTION 44: Forgettable Books

Dr Richard Restak, a neurologist, says reading fiction requires active engagement with the text, starting at the beginning and working through to the end. “You have to remember what the character did on Page 3 by the time you get to Page 11,”.

However, we've all read the occasional book knowing it is completely forgettable, even though it may be engaging at the time.

What role does reading like this play in our lives: comfort, filling in time, keeping engaged when things may be difficult elsewhere? What does it do for us?

____________
* https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/06/well/mind/memory-loss-prevention.html?smid=ny...

>188 SassyLassy: Well, we do know what happens in *not* real life, ie in fiction. Of course some authors give us sequels—-usually for commercial rather than artistic reasons.

>190 SassyLassy: “You have to remember what the character did on Page 3 by the time you get to Page 11” - Resak

Methinks the good doctor Resak is clearly not a reader. We don’t remember what characters did by and certain page. A book is not about characters alone. We remember the atmosphere, the writing style, the feelings the book provoked. Often the ambiguity itself means readers experience a book differently.

I remember very little detail of Sarah Bernstein’s Studies for Obedience but I will never forget that book. Same with The Bell Jar.

But I will always forget Dr Resak.

>190 SassyLassy: “You have to remember what the character did on Page 3 by the time you get to Page 11”

If that were true, I would not have finished a single book in my life. Also, I forget all the books after I read them. If it’s a good one I will remember a few impressions, maybe. Or just that I liked it.

I would suggest that there is a difference between remembering plot details of a book read in the past and remembering, while reading page 11 of, say, Oliver Twist that he is the orphan born in a poorhouse on page 3. Otherwise the book would be meaningless.

>191 booksaplenty1949: >192 kjuliff: >194 booksaplenty1949: But what about the forgettable books you've read?

>193 FlorenceArt: Is the forgetting deliberate, in the sense of 'now I'm moving on to xyz', or does it just happen?

>195 SassyLassy: Not deliberate. I would like to remember more, both during and after, but it doesn’t prevent me from enjoying the reading.

>190 SassyLassy: Question 44

There is something seriously weird with this guy's idea of how you read fiction.

I read a lot (most of the time) and most of what I read leaves me with impressions (and occasionally remembered scenes) and that is what I usually look for when I read a book. Some books are like candy - they are great while you are reading them but a few months later? I need my catalog to remind me I actually read it already. Which does not mean that I really forget it (as I had discovered) - as soon as I start reading it again and immerse myself in the author's style, the memories resurface.

So I don't really separate memorable from forgettable books - either when picking up one or when thinking about them. Part of it is probably that I am a serial series reader - I don't remember every single detail from each installment but I remember enough for the series to make sense and for things to click for me when required (and most authors don't expect you to remember every single thing that happened).

>194 booksaplenty1949: I think that you are onto something. When I read, I have a mental picture of the world I am reading in - which is not visual usually but contains all those small things that make up the story and its world and that allow things to click into place while I progress through the text. It does not matter what kind of a book it is, that's how my reading works (and that's why I can read multiple novels at the same time or get into a series again after awhile - my brain just snaps into another snapshot when I switch books). In the past I'd believed that this is how everyone works but then I know some people who take notes during long series so I guess that is not exactly the case?

>195 SassyLassy: I suppose it depends what is meant by forgettable. I certainly have books I can’t recall but if reminded I’ll remember that I’ve read them, but didn’t think enough of them to make an impression.

As for books with many characters, only being able to read audio. means I easily forget which character is which, as it’s not so easy to flip back a page. Also my aural memory is not as good as my visual one.

>197 AnnieMod: I am having a vision of a reader who, like the famous Patient HM, is unable to form new memories and must re-acquaint him-or-herself with a book’s characters on every page. “Well, so this Jane Eyre has found a husband. Disabled chap, but she seems happy with him.” Not, I think, the typical reading experience. Naturally most people don’t remember every little detail. That is how a mystery story works. We are given all the clues—-that is part of the “contract”—-but do not see their significance and hence ignore and/or forget them. But we take in the structure of the plot as a whole. The characters have a coherent identity. Presumably that is what Restak is talking about.

I've recently (over the last 4-5 years) run into a few books - all of them in series, I think - where I picked up a "new" book, read and enjoyed it, went to review it on LT...and found I already had (generally several years previously). Normally I recognize a book shortly after I start it if I've read it already...not these. One was a Skeleton Detective, I don't remember the other two (or three...). A bit formulaic, which was a large part of the problem...but I should have remembered Gibraltar!

I have a good many reviews that say "good fluff". Which means I'll likely forget 99% of the story shortly after I finish, but it's well-written enough to hold my interest while reading. Bad fluff doesn't...usually it isn't coherent enough for me to make sense, and therefore any memories, of it, and I'm very apt to either put it down and never pick it up again, or simply DNF it. So there aren't many of my reviews that mention that, I just don't bother.

>199 booksaplenty1949: Well, that’s not what he’s saying since he’s talking about plot and actions, not characters and general information. But in any case, how is that different from real life?

I’m not very good at people, and I find it difficult to keep track of who’s who, both in real life and in books. Also I remember some events and forget others, both in books and in real life.

Yes, I think Resak has put his finger on a trivial truth. Of course, whilst we’re reading a book, we have to carry a mental model of the characters and their actions and the way they relate to each other, otherwise we would be in the situation >199 booksaplenty1949: suggests for the reader of Jane Eyre. I don’t suppose there are many people who carry around a literal mental picture of page 3 and page 11, but we do have to know all kinds of things about who the characters are and what has happened to them. Afterwards we simplify that to a greater or lesser extent and file away what remains, as with all short-term memory stuff. And I can accept that keeping track of five Bennet sisters, none of whom we’ve ever actually met, is at least a moderately useful memory workout for the two or three days it takes us to get from the arrival of Mr Darcy to the proposal in the shrubbery.

That applies to forgettable books too. And the point about forgettable books is that we don’t remember them long-term, so it’s impossible to say how many of them there are or how little we remember of them, unless we have some kind of solid record to compare with, which we normally don’t. I’ve been looking at a diary from my teenage years, and it’s slightly scary to see detailed plot-summaries of books, plays and films that I’ve totally forgotten, in amongst casual mentions — without any details at all — of others that now strike me as very important. It’s no news to discover that I could be wrong all those years ago, but it is shocking how some things that seemed very important at the time have completely gone from the memory banks.

I suspect that the real thing that makes books forgettable is purely subjective, and not necessarily related to the quality of the book itself. We remember it as we read and shortly after, but for some reason we never have any reason to draw on that memory later on — we never read anything else by the same author or set in the same place or time, or have anything in our own lives to relate it to, or talk to our friends about it, or see it sitting on the shelf and have a tactile memory of holding and opening it…

>201 FlorenceArt: He’s talking about remembering “what the character did.” That requires remembering both “who” and “what” from page to page. If you can read a book without keeping either of those straight as you go along and still find it an enjoyable experience, more power to you. But I don’t think this is typical.
Forgetting anything or everything about a book, or even having read it all, after the fact is entirely different. It’s like remembering what you ate for dinner last Wednesday. People who remember everything about their lives exist, but they are very rare.

I think Mark put the remember page 3 on page 11 thing very well ( >202 thorold: ). I think we read a book the first time not knowing what’s important and what to remember. We guess. (And if we reread, we have a chance to see how much we guessed wrong.)

As for forgettable books, I don’t like the idea of them. I want to remember what i’ve read. But of course I forget.

>204 dchaikin: Unlike the mystery story writer, who is trying to mislead you, the skillful author of fiction is directing your attention to the qualities and actions of his/her characters and the elements of the setting which will create the overall artistic effect he or she is seeking. Inevitably factors such as youth and inexperience, or the norms of a time or culture we are unfamiliar with, will cause us to under-or-overvalue some of these things. When I first read The Ambassadors the 35-year old woman romancing my contemporary, a man of 22, was a pathetic, desperate older woman. When I read the book fifteen years later, she was a charming companion trying to show him the world, and he was a cowardly cad. I think this was Henry James’s intention, and probably would have been clear to me even on first reading at that age.

>205 booksaplenty1949: interesting comment. Our perspective changes, no question. But authors toy with what they want us workout ourselves and what they hope to make clear, all while keeping us engaged.

>205 booksaplenty1949: >206 dchaikin: I think that the changing of norms can make a huge difference in how we experience some books, especially books written post mid-20th century. There has been so much change in Western values in the past 80 years.

Take the effect of the meToo movement alone.

In the case of historical literature it’s easier to place oneself in the moral environment of the time. We can easily accept Madame Bovary as being perceived of as an adulteress. Because we see the time before - well it depends upon when one was born - as history.

When Helen Garner wrote The First Stone 1995 it raised little controversy over her reporting of what was then considered mild sexual harassment. Garner gave a sympathetic view of the university professor who lost his career over an incident at a party, an incident that women of my generation would have taken in their stride.

Now in the 2020s the book seems archaic. Garner appears out of date.

It’s not just the readers who are affected by societal norms, it’s the writers as well.

Edit - a more obvious example is Coetzee’s Disgrace, which led to the controversy over the book winning the Booker in 1993. See Reading J.M. Coetzee’s Disgrace During the Harvey Weinstein Trial

>207 kjuliff: A very interesting topic. I am an opera fan, but I have to say that the egregious sexism of most opera plots has started to wear on me in a way that it did not once upon a time. Fortunately a lot of 19thC fiction, another area of interest, is written by women, so situations become somewhat more nuanced even when outdated social norms are in play.

The linked article about Restack and memory is very interesting. Reading the piece gave me a clearer idea of who he is and what he's getting at than that very short quote about reading fiction. Regarding that quote, I think any fault there may lie with the author of the article, in terms of what she chose to quote and how long of a quote to use on the subject. The passage comes from a short segment of the article discussing only one aspect among many that Restack, in discussing his 20th book on the subject of memory, provides as tips for improving memory as we age. For what it's worth, here's the full section:

Read more novels.

"One early indicator of memory issues, according to Dr. Restak, is giving up on fiction. 'People, when they begin to have memory difficulties, tend to switch to reading nonfiction,' he said.

Over his decades of treating patients, Dr. Restak has noticed that fiction requires active engagement with the text, starting at the beginning and working through to the end. 'You have to remember what the character did on Page 3 by the time you get to Page 11,' he said." (emphasis mine)

I'd guess that if any of us sat down with Restock and asked him about the topic, we'd get a much more satisfactory and thoughtful answer as to what exactly he's getting at. But it's an article about strategies for greater memory retention as we age, and Restak's point seems to me that fiction reading takes more active mental engagement of the sort that helps keep our minds supple than does nonfiction reading. (In a similar way, I suppose, that reading of any sort is a more active mental pursuit than watching TV or movies.)

Regarding the issue "giving up on fiction" as we age, our Club Read group may not be a typical one in this regard. Anecdotally, I have quite a few friends my age (68) who have told me that they almost never read fiction anymore but have switched almost exclusively to nonfiction, so that part rings true to me. In the reading group I was in when we were still in California, around three-quarters of the books selected were nonfiction, for whatever that's worth.

Anyway, I definitely find that as I progress through a novel these days I often remember fewer of the plot points, many fewer, than I used to remember easily. Sometimes just putting a book down and not getting back to it for a couple of days is enough for me to be at sea to a greater or lesser extent when I return to the reading. If the author is skillful enough, storytelling-wise, there are usually clues as the story goes along to remind the reader what is going on and who is who. Sometimes I go and skim earlier pages to try to get back on track, or sometimes I just dive back in and just figure out whatever's figure-outable as I go. It's nice to know that, as per Restack, anyway, just engaging in this activity is good for my memory retention going forward! At 68, I need all the help I can get! I knew I wasn't just having fun!

But of course, as others have said, plot isn't the only reason for reading and enjoying fiction. Graceful sentences and paragraphs, effective characterization, admirable creation of sense of place . . . there are just some of the sources of fiction-reading pleasure.

I often read and enjoy books I know I'm probably not going to remember much about a week or a month after I've finished them if they're well written (the enjoyment part) and, especially, if they're plot driven (the not remembering details part). The process of reading is a delight for me in and of itself. Sometimes one or more aspects of a book hits home with me in one way or another to the extent that I know it is going to be a memorable one over the long haul. I now have LT reading/reviewing threads dating back to 2008. I enjoy scrolling through them from time to time to remind myself of books I've enjoyed but wouldn't necessarily easily come to mind without a prompt of that sort. Sometimes the experience (including the time and place I was in personally) of reading a particular book comes flooding back, and sometime not. But even in the latter case, I don't regret having spent the time reading the book if I thought it was good at the time.

>209 rocketjk: great post!

>210 dchaikin: Thanks! My wife tells this funny story: Her first job in education was teaching literature at a public middle school in San Francisco. The principal of the school became a mentor to her. When this person came to retire, at the retirement party she called my wife over to her and said, "Here's one more thing I want to tell you. When you get older, you're going to start forgetting things. And one of the first things you're going to forget is that you've always forgotten things."

>209 rocketjk: I’m unclear of whether the issue is one of memory or cognition, or even interest. If we don’t remember who David is on page 13, maybe it’s because we don’t care. Which could mean we have little interest in the book, or that the author has not engaged us sufficiently with ‘David”.

Anecdotal - I had a friend who at 22 had a large brain tumor removed. She recovered but had to learn to walk again as well as to re-learn other necessary motor skills.

She did not remember anything about her boyfriend - his name, where he lived etc but she did remember she loved him.

With books she could remember nothing at all about them. Not even what she’d read. But given the name of the book, she’d remember if she liked it. She told me it was a joyful experience - having so many books she could read as if for the first time, knowing in advance that she’d like them.

>209 rocketjk: Thanks for taking the time to check and clarify. I’m probably a special case but I don’t feel that I am forgetting more as I grow older. Maybe it’s sneaking up on me though. But I always joke that by the time we find out who the murderer is, I’ve forgotten who was killed. I’m not interested in plot-driven books because I forget the plot as I go along. But maybe, as >212 kjuliff: suggested, it’s really the other way around?

>212 kjuliff: "If we don’t remember who David is on page 13, maybe it’s because we don’t care. Which could mean we have little interest in the book, or that the author has not engaged us sufficiently with ‘David”."

Well, sure. Restak's point is that reading fiction is one of many strategies to help with memory retention as we age, because you have to keep myriad elements in your mind at once to follow the storyline over a full novel. I think it stands to reason that this would be a more effective strategy with a novel one finds interesting.

>214 rocketjk: I’m not convinced that reading fiction per se helps with memory retention as we age. From my readings - and I have a vested interest - it is learning something new that helps one keep one’s memory and cognitive powers more or less intact.

Reading a new work of fiction is not learning a new skill. Learning chess for the first time is.

>215 kjuliff: Could be that giving up on fiction is a consequence, not a cause, of failing memory.

>216 FlorenceArt: in reference to older people preferring non-fiction, remember hearing Ricky Gervais saying the older he gets the more he feels the need to learn. He was talking about science. I fully related.

When we are young we don’t worry about expanding fields of knowledge. We have all the time in the world.

Your point re cause and effect is so valid. A correlation does not imply causality. As a very old woman once said, “Recollections may vary.”

>217 kjuliff: We are still talking about *causation* when we say that A causes B, rather than B causes A. This is not the same as correlation—-when two phenomena co-exist but are not causally related to each other.
From a memory perspective following an unfamiliar plot is “learning something new” just as much as reading a book on raising chickens or the history of Peru.
I guess a follow-up study could be done on how much older readers retained of the non-fiction they read. If the author’s thesis and the details which support it cannot be recalled once the book is finished I don’t think we could claim that the reader has expanded his or her field of knowledge, regardless of the motivation for reading the book.

>215 kjuliff: I don't think the two are mutually exclusive. In the linked article, Restak recommends several different sorts of memory exercises as effective strategies. So we can consider fiction reading to be one of those exercises. Or think of it this way: while the process of reading isn't new each time, the story and the characters are different. You're having to remember different things while reading The Grapes of Wrath than while reading Moby Dick or Catch 22. Or, for that matter, Murder on the Orient Express. Each time you read a new novel, it's a new set of circumstances to remember and to hold in your mind. A new world to learn about, if you like. In a novel that you find moving, you might be discovering and/or contemplating new elements of human nature, or at least new ways to think about human interactions, new philosophical concepts, or new points of historical interest.

I've read often that puzzles, like crosswords or number puzzles, are helpful. You're not learning to do crossword puzzles all over again each time, but you are having to continually come up with new word associations, literary allusions or historical figures with each puzzle. It seems reasonable to me that keeping the progressively more complicated elements of a novel in one's mind over the course of a week or more would also work in that way.

Learning chess or French or the clarinet are of course great ways to help ensure memory retention. Since that sort of thing takes the most work, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that such learning represents the most effective strategy. But is it the only effective strategy?

I did a quick online search and found another review of Restak's new book in the Guardian, which spends much more time on the reading aspect of his ideas:

Memory does vary, he points out, and some people will always have been scatty. But the real red flag is a change that seems out of character. If you’re a keen card player who prides yourself on always keeping track of which cards have been played, and suddenly realise you can’t do that any more, it could be worth investigating. Similarly, Restak has noticed that many patients in the early stages of dementia stop reading fiction, because it’s too difficult to remember what the character said or did a few chapters earlier – which is unfortunate, he says, because reading complex novels can be a valuable mental workout in itself.

Restak and his wife are currently on Alexandre Dumas’s The Count of Monte Cristo, which has a complex sprawling cast: “It’s an exercise in being able to keep track of characters without going backwards from one page to another.” If that’s already difficult for you, he says, it’s fine to underline the first mention of a new character and then flip back to remind yourself later if necessary. “Do whatever you have to, to keep yourself reading.”

Like following a recipe, keeping track of fictional plots is an exercise of working memory – as distinct from short-term memory (temporarily storing something like a phone number that you can safely forget the minute you’ve dialed it) or episodic memory, which covers things like recollections of childhood. Working memory is what we use to “work with the information we have”, says Restak, and it’s the one we should all prioritise. Left to its own devices, he points out, memory naturally starts to decline from your 30s onwards, which is why he advocates practising it daily.
https://www.theguardian.com/science/2022/aug/17/stop-drinking-keep-reading-look-...

fwiw, here's his wikipedia page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Restak

Anyway, all that stuff doesn't prove he's right about anything. If one isn't convinced, c'est la vie! We each come to our information and our conclusions in our own ways. Cheers!

>218 booksaplenty1949: We are still talking about *causation* when we say that A causes B, rather than B causes A. This is not the same as correlation—-when two phenomena co-exist but are not causally related to each other.

I know that. Hence my post. It’s just as easy to imply that giving up fiction is the case or effect of memory failing. Or just both being the result of some other factor. Or completely random.

Having just taken an interest in quantum physics I can’t agree that the level of memory required is less than reading the latest Booker prize winner’s novel.

>219 rocketjk: Thanks for the references and clarifications. It is some years since I’ve read about the differences in training one’s memory. I should refresh my research. But I’m pretty sure that doing crosswords is not as effective as learning a completely unrelated non-word skill.

It’s an interesting topic and I can assure you of one thing at least, it gets more interesting as one ages.

I should point out, I’m only talking about “normal” memory loss, and not dementia or Alzheimer’s.

Not clear to me why nonfiction is less memory-intensive than fiction. Maybe because most nonfiction books start with introductions laying out the book's organization, while we must read most of a novel to comprehend what it's about? I often have to go back in some nonfiction books when the author alludes to something covered earlier.

When I read a novel, I usually write down the first appearance (at least) of each character, so when a name shows up later, I can see what I'm supposed to know already about the person. I also write down bits that are plot-relevant, especially when they seem like foreshadowing.

>222 dukedom_enough: I think that's a very fair question. I would conjecture that maybe it's because histories are generally told more linearly, while novels often move around in terms of points of view and time. Also, the ability to remember who people are and what has occurred earlier perhaps is more crucial to understanding what's happening as one moves forward through a novel. I don't know. I'm kind of shooting from the hip, here. Or possibly your second paragraph provides a hint to what Restak is getting at, in terms of the need to do what you describe for novels but not for non-fiction. But yes, I, too, sometimes need to remind myself about earlier events as a read through histories in particular.

>222 dukedom_enough: >223 rocketjk: Not clear to me why nonfiction is less memory-intensive than fiction.

I had the same thought. While it's true that history and other non fiction writing is usually more linear, there is the requirement on the part of the reader to remember not only what is being read, but also to remember other things from related readings, and sometimes even off topic readings, in order to reconsider them in relation to the current book or article.

>224 SassyLassy: That would certainly add to the interest of the book, and its intellectual value to me as a reader, but I could still make sense of a work of non-fiction even if I had little or no background in the subject, provided it was not meant for scholarly specialists. In any event I would be drawing on previous memories, if any, not trying to form new ones, as a fictional text would require me to do.

>222 dukedom_enough: You have me thinking too. I have a strong sense that it’s absolutely true, that fiction works the memory more, but I’m not sure how exactly to explain. I think fiction works more on the imagination, and the writer can do a whole lot more at once and usually does. And I think as a reader we not only need to recall who a character is, but the whole context of their introduction and description. The words the authors use, the circumstance and surrounding elements all have weight and implications and values. Nonfiction texts are more utilitarian. If you understand the purpose of the words, that’s sufficient.

>226 dchaikin: It sounds as if the point might be that remembering who people are and how they relate to each other in a narrative is somehow closer to the kind of memory tasks that are crucial to everyday life than the abstract concepts or mechanistic connections you might need to understand in a non-fiction book. But something like a biography or narrative history must surely trigger the same bits of the brain as a novel.

Both non-fiction and fiction cover a wide range so I'd want to see more detail. I'd suppose if non-fiction in general is less demanding of memory, it's because the author is often intentionally teaching, which tends to include an outline of main concepts, reminders of the foundation before introducing new information, directly pointing to crucial facts, perhaps a reference illustration. Whereas with fiction you may not know what to pay attention to or where it is going, and may have to hold onto hints until their connection or significance is revealed.

I found this interesting study: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/09610006211053040

>226 dchaikin: & >227 thorold: I agree with both of your comments, here. I would suggest that, as far as non-fiction goes, we can think of it more or less a continuum from the more or less straightforward, "this happened and then that happened and here's who got mad about it" of, say, a history textbook, and the more nuanced non-fiction of books like, as Mark says, memoirs or narrative histories. Getting back to Restak, it would be interesting to know what sort of non-fiction those patients of his who turned from fiction to non-fiction due to cognition issues tend to read, and whether there's a pattern to be discerned there.

>229 Yells: That is interesting! Well, the abstract is, anyway. I hope to read the rest over the next couple of days.

>229 Yells: abstract is interesting. Makes you wonder how anyone can objectively make that kind of conclusion on any data. But i’ll leave it there. It makes sense.

>229 Yells: Thanks for sharing the article. I too only read the abstract, but it started me thinking about how fiction provides us with more opportunities for text to self comparisons than nonfiction. I think readers also have more to critique, evaluate, and philosophize about with fiction. Of course, nonfiction does as well, but I tend to read nonfiction with an eye to learning something, and as others have said that involves a different approach than reading for entertainment or enlightenment. But there is so much crossover, with memoirs, narrative nonfiction, etc that I'm don't think hard and fast rules apply. I'm also not sure that because the reading experiences are different, one is superior to the other in improving cognition or memory. I think how much you engage with the text is a factor. Nonfiction where I consult atlases and other reference material, read in a foreign language, and/or take copious notes seems like it would stretch my brain in other ways. Interesting discussion.

The first sign of incipient dementia is losing track of recent events. The more distant past remains intact much longer. “Non-fiction” is a very broad term, but much of it covers content with which the reader is already somewhat familiar: historical events, or the life of a famous person, or natural phenomena. The reader is rarely starting from scratch. A work of fiction introduces the reader to people and events which are entirely new. That is probably why it can function as a memory exercise.

>225 booksaplenty1949: Interesting. Non fiction always has me trying to integrate, which in turn leads to different expanded memories from what I knew about a given topic previously.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - non-fiction is usually about something you know _something_ about (or you wouldn't be interested) so it's an expansion, not creating a world and its inhabitants wholesale in your head from what the author says. I wonder if there's a difference in reading series and standalones in fiction - might be too fine a detail, at least for studies that have been done so far.

>235 SassyLassy: thats the way it is for me too. When i am reading non fiction many of those memories come from fiction. The intergration is part of learning, once you have some background, you can collect the memories to make sense of the materials

image from Muppet Wiki Fandom

Great news! Jerry (rocketjk) is taking on “Questions for the Avid Reader” in 2024. Given his wide and often eclectic reading, he’s bound to come up with some challenging questions. I can't wait to see them!

If you have any ideas for him, please PM him: https://www.librarything.com/profile/rocketjk He’ll welcome your ideas.

Greetings, all! I feel honored to be asked to take on this post, but if anyone else has a strong desire to have the job, I don't mind stepping aside. That said, assuming I'm to carry on, then yes, as Sassy says, I will be most appreciative of any suggestions for discussion topics that might come my way.

All the best, as the menorahs have been put away, I'll wish everyone a Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanzaa and Happy New Year!

Just bumping this up a bit in case anyone missed the message at >239 SassyLassy: