Murdoch & Mayhem

Update and guide to what's happening here PLUS a link to a thread I put on a pre-existing, non-75, devoted to Iris Murdoch Group:
Iris Murdoch Group
There is some thought that we could use the Group for commenting on particular books.... and this thread I've made could become the place for general discussion? Anyhow, lots of choices!

Currently we have readers actively commenting on:
The Sea the Sea (sibyx)
The Black Prince (labwriter)
The Time of the Angels (LizzieD)

Books about Murdoch:
Murdoch for Beginners (DorsVenabili) was threatening to read this in December.

Iris Murdoch is one of those writers that one means to 'get around' to because those who have done so enjoy the experience, especially other writers and many readers here on LT whose opinions I hold in high regard. My suspicion is that she is more a writer for the mature reader (you could be twelve, it's an attitude) - which I know I didn't have when I picked up a novel of hers when I was in my 20's. So report away and ask away and discuss away about all things Murdoch - no group reads of a single book - just mayhem and randomness.

I am reading one of the two Murdochs I have at hand - The Sea, the Sea - the other is The Bell. I propose to read (approximately) one Murdoch per month until I get tired of it or run out of books. The protag. of The Sea, the Sea is a 'retired' actor with an ego as big as...... well...... big. He is a thoroughly untrustworthy narrator, but a man with a lot of charm (an actor/director) and horrible taste in food. He is musing on his past in a journal form, seemingly random, but probably not at all in actuality.

This is very exciting! The Sea, The Sea is one of my favorite novels of all time (in the rotating top 3). I also loved The Bell and in 2013 I plan to read 6 Murdoch novels, alternating months with Jane Gardam novels. I assume this thread will carry over to the 2013 group? I hope so, because I'll have lots to post.

Yay!

I read several Murdochs in 2011, working my way through her Booker-nominated novels. I took a break this year because a) I needed it! and b) I was reading Elizabeth Taylor.

That said, in 2013 it would be fun to read a couple more. She was prolific so I have plenty to choose from.

I agree, this is exciting, and thanks to Lucy for creating this thread! I fit into Lucy's category of a person who tried Murdoch years ago and found that she didn't "take." I've had The Black Prince sitting on my shelf for years, given to me by a writer-friend who told me I should read it. I'm very glad there are people posting here already who have read and enjoyed her books. I'm eager to hear about her work.

#5 - I was actually hoping to read The Black Prince this year, but it hasn't happened yet. It's high on my list, along with The Good Apprentice and A Fairly Honorable Defeat.

The one other Murdoch I've read is A Severed Head, which was good, but my least favorite of the three, quite frankly.

ETA: I also have some lit crit-y stuff sitting on my shelf that I might read next month in preparation for 2013, including a short graphic novel thing called Iris Murdoch for Beginners.

I'll be interested to see what the graphic novel is like. After reading her husband's memoir I became re-interested in trying Iris again, but she isn't a casual read exactly. Glad to see so much enthusiasm, and YES this thread will carry over into 2013. In a way it doesn't even really start until 2013....... this is kind of warm up.

I read The Bell some years ago and was quite taken. I don't remember liking Jackson's Dilemma at all. Permaybehaps the 2013 Murdoch Festschrift will inspire me!

#7 - It's part of a "...for Beginners" series. I also have one called Deconstruction for Beginners (Fun!). They are very short and, quite frankly, appear to be a bit cheezy, but I'll give the Iris Murdoch one a try in December.

If there is even one interesting scrap we'd love to hear about it!

Excellent idea for a discussion thread Lucy! I've been meaning to try more Murdoch for a while but I don't quite know where to dive in next.

I tried The Unicorn (I think) in my late teens/early twenties and Did Not Get It At All. Then for some reason decided to try The Sea, The Sea a few years ago and loved it. That was shortly before I discovered LT and my reading list exploded and somehow I've never got round to investigating any of her other books. I'd like to try The Unicorn again one day but perhaps not as my next Murdoch. Maybe I'll try The Bell?

#6 Iris Murdoch for Beginners sounds really interesting Kerri - do let us know what you think.

Hmmm... I would like to try her sometime, but now of course I'm slightly hesitant because of the whole maturity thing people have been mentioning. I'll leave the thread starred though, I'll have to see if I have the time and feel mature enough ;)

Britt - it's an inner maturity of which I speak.......but Murdoch is/was a sly one - so knowledgeable, so well-read - in The Sea, the sea I wouldn't, for example, have gotten who Gilbert White was Natural History of Selborne (which I highly recommend if you like nature writing, he gets credit for being the first local observer/nature writer) because I only read his book in the last ten years. Then there is the almost constant Shakespeare ..... shadows and hints...... from the ghost, to the tower, from these women vying for the love of the old man...... And I've no doubt I'm missing 2/3 of what is lying there right before me! I've had a lifetime to get to know Shakespeare's plays so No question but that our fellow is putting on a bit of theatre, question is why and who for. I imagine that will be quite the surprise.

Yesyes, I understood the inner maturity part :) Just not sure if that would make me mature enough, or just leave me with a sense of not having understood half of what she's saying. Besides, I find that I have to be in the 'right' mood for complex books, sometimes I just don't feel like really getting into something with lots of complicated references but just feel like reading something simple :P

I am with you there! The good thing is Iris isn't hard the way some writers are.... she's mostly sly, I think.

I read a lot of Murdoch 30 or 40 years ago, so I really need to reread almost everything. Since I can't wait, I'm going to go ahead with The Time of the Angels, which I just pulled off my Murdoch shelf.

No need to wait - she wrote more than 13 novels! And who knows how far we'll get - maybe if all of us work at it we can read all of them. And some biographical material too.

I've linked this to the 2013 Group Wiki page, so sign up if you'd like! IRIS

Well, this is too bad. I just read over on Suzanne's thread that the entire Iris Murdoch oeuvre, Kindle edition, was on sale on Cyber Monday for about 2 bucks apiece. I just went to Amazon and they are back again at between $8 to $13. Blast. I don't pay enough attention to these things. I have a perfect talent for missing all sales.

#19 - That was a good sale. I picked up Bruno's Dream and An Unofficial Rose and a few non-Murdoch books as well.

You can sign up for the Daily Deal email. If I didn't get that email, I would never remember to check. I'm usually not interested in the books they choose, but sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised.

Things are getting more and more muddled for poor old - well heck - what is his name? My protagonist in The Sea, the sea. Oh yes, of course, Charles CHARLES, not Charlie or Chuck or anything but Charles Arrowby. Truly an appalling number of women are swirling about him now, and naturally the only one he wants is the one he can't have.

Has anyone read The Green Knight? That one seems to be calling me.
Perhaps I will line that up for 2013 - 1st quarter. I have so many awesome books in line to be read :-)

I'll do my best here to avoid spoilers.

I had some extra reading time, so I'm well into The Black Prince. I admire authors who can creditably write in the first person of the opposite sex. The protagonist and narrator for this one is Bradley Pearson (who hates to be called Brad, by the way), a divorced retired tax inspector who prides himself on being a serious writer, however has only three minor publications to his name.

The cast of characters that surrounds Bradley might all be inmates in a lunatic asylum. There's Arnold Baffin, friend of Bradley and younger, popularly successful writer who writes too much and is too easily praised, according to his daughter; Rachel, Arnold's wife ("more about her later" which is a device Bradley uses often throughout the narrative); Julian, their 20-something disappointing daughter; Bradley's younger sister, Priscilla, who may or may not be divorcing her husband; Christian, Bradley's former wife who has returned to London after living in Illinois and comes home with an "American twang"; and Christian's brother, Francis Marloe, a bothersome hanger-on.

I find myself laughing out loud at the oddest places, having no idea whether or not Murdoch is meaning to be funny. Bradley writes letters to several of these people, hoping to use the letters as shields or barriers that will keep them either out of his life or under control.

An example--To his ex-wife, addressed as "Dear Mrs. Evandale": "I would appreciate it if you would take this letter as saying exactly what it appears to say and nothing else. There is nothing of a cordial or forward-looking import to be read 'between the lines.' My act of writing to you does not betoken excitement or interest. As my wife you were unpleasant to me, cruel to me, destructive to me. I do not think that I speak too strongly. I was profoundly relieved to be free of you and I do not like you. Or rather I do not like the memory of you. I scarcely even now conceive of you as existing except as a nastiness conjured up by your brother. This miasma will soon pass and be replaced by the previous state of oblivion. I trust you will not interfere with this process by any manifestation. I should, to be finally frank, be thoroughly angered by any 'approach' on your part, and I am sure that you would wish to avoid a distressing scene. I derive consolation from the thought that since your memories of me are doubtless just as disagreeable as my memories of you, you are unlikely to desire a meeting."

I do not think that I speak too strongly.--Ha. Then after sending the letter, Bradley decides that the letter itself will probably have the opposite effect of what he desired--to excite her into creating a distressing scene--so to hold her off from "coming round in a taxi," he goes to see her. When he gets to the house, Christian is described as someone I can only imagine as looking and acting a great deal like Anna Wintour. Screaming.

The man is laughable and ludicrous, and I can't say that at 112/366 I have him or any of the others figured out yet. This might be one of those books that needs a double reading.

I would love to join this! However I am not sure one thread is the way to go about it. It will get very, very long and ugly.... I propose we create a new thread for each of her books like they have over at Author Theme Reads for their year-long read of Shusaku Endo. On this master thread we can link to the individual book threads as they are created by the first person to read/comment on each book.

Thoughts?

>24 JDHomrighausen:. Jonathan, your idea sounds brilliant. Reading and commenting on Murdoch is Lucy's (Sibyx's) idea, so I shouldn't speak for her. Let's see what she says. We would love to have you join, and we sure don't want "very long and ugly"--ha.

Thanks for the post.

#24 and #25 - I can see both sides of this issue, but one big downside of the one-thread-per-book option is that you'll then have many threads with one or two lonely little reviews in each and very little discussion. I've seen that happen in other similar situations. I think it is especially likely to happen here since this is a small group and Murdoch wrote a large number of novels.

I'll go with whatever people here want to do--Lucy, what do you think?

If we want to do that a "Murdoch and Mayhem Group" would be a better idea I think, rather than cluttering up the 75 which is already so huge? I'm happy to set that up - I'm thrilled there is so much interest. It might be a little harder for 75ers to find, though. So I will wait for some feedback? I do like the idea of separate threads for different titles but I won't be able to list all of those on the wiki, or rather, I would but I don't want to. If someone else wants to manage that - or even find out HOW to manage that (and then manage it) then we can stay here - up to others. I'm happy to have other admins. too if we make a separate thread. I'm happy with anything, just want it to work as simply and effectively as possible.

There's actually already an Iris Murdoch group that isn't very active. I suppose we could hijack it, but then we wouldn't be admins.

http://www.librarything.com/groups/irismurdochreaders

After this weekend, I'm a free woman and could help you set up a new group and admin it, if you'd like.

I think having a group is good, but then I still have the concerns I listed above. To avoid those problems, do we want to pick specific monthly reads, similar to the Steinbeck thing that many 75ers did this year? That seemed quite successful. Or is that too much structure? I'm not sure.

I want to avoid structure...... I'm OK with the randomness of this thread - but I do know that the penalty is not being able to just go to one thread to read about one book which is also desirable. My NYer Support Group thread is quite random but it works because we have a thread for each month and folks can just report there when they have something to put in. Hmm I wonder if we could contact the Murdoch group folks and they'd let us take it over? Or, just make our own?

I don't mind moving away with a group, but I like the idea of the randomness for the reason that Kerri has mentioned. I'm not willing to commit to a particular book at a particular time with IM. I think if we're all reading something and commenting as Becky did in 25, that new connections are bound to present themselves to all of us in a way that they couldn't do one book at a time. The advantage of a group is that people who do want to read together can go start their own little thread that the rest of us can eavesdrop on from time to time. I'd be happy to stay right here for a month or so to see how the initial idea works.

ETA: As I suspected and hoped, admin for the existing thread is our friend LyzzyBee. She will be ecstatic to know that we have people over here interested in reading IM. I think I'm right also in saying that she presented a paper at an IM conference in England last year, so she would be a great addition to our group. I'll be glad to talk to her if you want me to. Lucy, you know her, don't you in the Virago group?

I'm with randomness also. Referring back to the Shusaku Endo read, now that school is out I am scrambling to read a bunch by the end of the year.

I would be in favor of keeping us in the 75ers group. Others are then more likely to see us and join mid-year. If we have the random reads going on, we'll also be more open to people joining mid-way!

I can see the danger of having lots of mini-threads with 1-2 reviews on it. But I think it's more likely we'll focus around her best and most popular works.

We should also post in the Iris Murdoch group to advertise our group. :)

I'm back with my first urge to call an idea to your attention from The Time of the Angels. Reading IM is not like coming home (thank goodness!), but it is a lot like being back in somebody else's house where you visited often many years ago. We have Carel Fisher, a priest who has been moved because of his eccentricities to a London parish without a church or a ministry. His household consists of his daughter, niece, and cook/housekeeper. His younger brother Marcus, a headmaster, is trying to be in touch with the niece who is his ward as well as Carel's. Marcus is thinking about teaching.... "Tolerant of himself, he was well aware of the subtle and important part which is played in the make-up of the successful teacher by a certain natural sadism. Marcus had taken his own measure as a sadist, he understood the machinery, and he had a perfect confidence in his expertise." That's just so Murdochian! Just enough truth to make you stop and gasp and then ponder.

So well said! I keep gasping and then somehow my actor narrator while behaving in the most melodramatic way convinces me to go along with all his 'theater' - it does seem like she chooses her 'poison' and then digs gleefully ever deeper, be it actor, writer, teacher........

NB - I'm going to 'keep track' of what is being read and commented on at the top of this thread. Remind me to update if I fall behind!

Lurking and enjoying it!

What about a hybrid solution? Make and keep a pointer-thread, all nicely wiki'd, in the 2013 75er group, and use the Iris Murdoch Readers forum for the actual chatting? It's what I plan to do with the year-long Short Stories challenge/group.

The 75er forum is SO huge and SO busy that any side projects like this get swamped and are hard to find. I lost TIOLI and have never found it again, despite its ongoing success.

Putting my oar in the waters FWIW.

You is quite smart, mon cousin. So...... I would, at the top of this thread, sent people off to the Iris Group?

> 36

I lost TIOLI and have never found it again

Hmmmm.... I know just where to find it! :D

Here's a link to my discussion of The Black Prince that is found in the Iris Murdoch Readers group.

Thanks, Becky. If I read The Black Prince, it will have been back in the 70s. I sort of remember Bradley's name, and that's about it. I'll look forward to seeing more when you've disciplined yourself to finish. Or was I supposed to say this over there?
Anyway, I continue to read a page or two of my IM every day or so. It seems that Christmas is coming.

Hi Peggy. I think--here or there--it doesn't matter. Not to me, anyway.

>33 LizzieD:, 34. While you're gasping and pondering at IM and her comment about the "certain natural sadism" of the successful teacher--aren't you also laughing? I think that's hilarious, but then maybe I'm not "getting" IM???

Oh - I'm totally there with you on that one. I love the way she expresses things. You do have to let people 'suffer' - as in give them challenging tasks and leave them to flounder when it's appropriate, and also to succeed or fail (this has boundaries and limits, of course, there are things you do for students but there is a line) - so you have to step back. It isn't really sadism, of course, but you do have to sort of dull your reactions.....

I couldn't possibly stand Charles Arrowby if we weren't snorting behind his back at his behavior some of the time. What I find so breathtaking is that we also do care about him, she can shift the ground from laughable to making you feel for him in an instant. Just the way it can be with people - in fact. No one is lovable all the time, no one is honest all the time etc. She really captures that unceasing oscillation.

>43 sibylline:. I love the way you put that, Sib. All of it. Very nice. Thanks.

This has got me excited about reading Iris Murdoch. I'll dust off my copy of Bruno's Dream that I bought after the film "Iris" came out. I'll sign up on the wiki.