Silent Francis

>4 brone:

Nigerian Bishop Prays for Cessation of Violence Following Killing of Over 40 in Two Months (ACI Africa)

Bishop Wilfred Chikpa Anagbe highlights, “with a heavy heart”, the situation of the Nigerian State that has been at the center of most killings and displacements in the West African country, and prays for more peaceful days ahead... “It is with a very heavy heart that I am sending you this document which speaks of the situation of continued killings and displacement in the Catholic Diocese of Makurdi – Nigeria,” Bishop Chikpa says. He adds, “Our appeal is for all persons of goodwill to continue to spread the word about these killings and to help us in ways that bring these atrocities to an end”... “We are grateful to everyone for prayers and efforts made to address this concern. May the New Year bring us Peace and a cessation to the killings and displacements,” the Nigerian Catholic Bishop says...

Pope Francis Prays for Victims of Congo Church Bombing (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis expressed his closeness on Tuesday to the victims of a church bombing in the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC) that killed at least 14 people and injured more than 60. “In prayer, the Holy Father entrusts the deceased and the wounded to the mercy of God. He implores Christ, the Lord of Life, that the afflicted may find consolation and trust in God, invoking upon them the gift of peace,” a telegram sent Jan. 17 on behalf of the pope said...

“Join me in praying for Fr. Isaac Achi,” Pope Francis’ Appeal for Murdered Nigerian Priest (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis has invoked prayers for the soul of Fr. Isaac Achi, the Nigerian Catholic Priest who was murdered on Sunday, January 15 following an attack on Sts. Peter and Paul Kaffin Koro Parish of Minna Diocese in Nigeria. Speaking to pilgrims in the Vatican’s Paul VI Hall at the end of his Wednesday, January 18 General Audience, the Holy Father said, “I ask all of you to join me in praying for Fr. Isaac Achi of the Diocese of Minna in Northern Nigeria who was killed last Sunday in an attack on his rectory”...

>9 brone: Francis must have wished he was still under house arrest

I doubt whether Pope Francis wishes anybody to be under house arrest. It was probably a good opportunity for Cardinal Zen to have discussions with Vatican officials.

In counterpoise to the title of this thread, a definitely not silent Francis!

While other leaders turn away, Pope Francis responds to the cries of the world (The Tablet)

Pope Francis has not only heard the anguish of the earth and its inhabitants, but is speaking out for them when others stay silent. His consistent call on world leaders to act to stop the climate emergency has inspired millions, not just Catholics, but people of all faiths and none.

Emphasis mine.

>16 brone:

The world does not consist only of the USA. Here in Kenya it is not "the middle of winter", it is our fifth consecutive year of drought. I'm seeing hungry people and dying livestock all around me every day. Meanwhile in neighbouring South Sudan, where I will be next week, half the country has been underwater for four years due to floods, and it is estimated that at least 7 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance. Your attitude is typical of many in the Global North, where the voices of these people who are suffering for the "ecological sins" of others are not heard. They would not share your dismissive attitude towards a pope who speaks out on their behalf.

As a matter of accuracy, it is not "the middle of winter" even in the USA, since it is generally held that in the northern hemisphere the three months of winter ends and spring begins in March. But I believe you are having unseasonably cold weather in parts of the USA at the moment, a continuation of several years of extreme weather events, so even within the comfort and complacency of the rich industrialised nations it should by now be becoming clear that something has to be done about the climate crisis.

Edited to add: This reminds me of a quote from a Kenyan Catholic nun which I posted elsewhere this morning: "It is important to create venues where people from different nations and diverse cultures can have meaningful conversations. Where true encounter and dialogue can take place. Where we can learn to hear each other's reality and even try to imagine to see that reality from their perspective and not our perspectives".

>18 John5918:

Does that have anything to do with Kenyans dying of drought, or Pope Francis speaking out about the climate crisis, or indeed Sister Tia asking us to try to understand other people's perspectives?

>21 brone: why come over here

That's an interesting and rather egocentric comment. If you bother to check you'll see that I have been a member of this group for many years, and was posting on it long before you began posting. I post on many groups, on topics which interest me, to have conversations with people I agree with or disagree with, and when I see something which I consider to be erroneous or misleading. However if you're not interested in conversations, as you say, then I will modify my expectations and simply post what I want to say, whether you wish to respond or not.

>22 John5918: I have to say, my response would be that a traditional Catholic would regard what the Pope says as "infallible if he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals".

So on the face of the matter, brone would appear to be a heretic.

Am I correct in my understanding of that?

>23 MsMixte:

I'm travelling in South Sudan at the moment so I'm not in a position to write a detailed response, which I'll try to do next week when I'm home. Infallible teachings are limited and carefully defined, so not everything said by a pope enters the body of infallible teachings. Nevertheless, the Church teaches very clearly that Catholics should respect and be guided by the teaching of the pope. Referring to him dismissively as "Bergoglio" and ridiculing his statements doesn't appear to show much respect.

>24 John5918: Thank you, I look forward to your explication.

>26 brone:

Nobody is saying you can't disagree with a pope. Many Catholics had reservations about some elements of John Paul II and Benedict XVI's papacies, many still question some of Pius XII's decisions, and probably the majority of Catholics ignore certain teachings of Paul VI's encyclical Humanae vitae, while theologians still question whether or not it was an infallible teaching. However none of these popes were ridiculed, vilified or dismissed outright by Catholics who disagreed with elements of their teaching. It is pretty disgusting to see the lack of charity and respect demonstrated towards our current pope by a small number of Catholics, sadly including your good self. It is distinctly un-Catholic and, for people who arrogate to themselves the term "traditionalist", it is distinctly untraditional. If you respectfully disagree with the pope on some issues, fine. If you disrespectfully disagree with him on just about everything, to the extent that you often refuse even to refer to him by his title, then you're probably a schismatic or a Protestant.

Although having said that, I would add that many protestants, people of other faiths and people of no religious belief do have great respect for him. I'm in South Sudan at the moment and I'm hearing good things from all quarters about the ecumenical pilgrimage last month by Pope Francis, Archbishop Welby and Moderator Greenshields. Thank God for Christian leaders like these three and their South Sudanese counterparts who recognise the Gospel value of Christian unity.

>29 brone: your guy?

You mean our pope? He's also your pope (or guy, if you like), unless you're no longer a Catholic?

>31 brone: banning the Latin Mass in America

See a parallel thread in this group pointing out that "the Latin Mass" has not been banned anywhere in the world, that the definitive text of the mass from which all vernacular translations are derived is in Latin, and that the Church has expressly encouraged its use. What is restricted, and not permitted in public liturgies in parish churches, is the use of an old liturgical rite which was superseded sixty years ago.

>31 brone: McElroy's going unpunished

If your understanding of Church is that anybody who questions an element of Church teaching or praxis should be punished, then you're setting yourself up for it, as you are constantly attacking the Church. But no, the Church is not a boot camp where those who don't comply are punished, but is built on love and mercy, guiding rather than coercing her flock. Nor is Holy Communion a reward for being good. Rather it is a source of grace for we who are sinners, yes, even for you and me.

>29 brone: The local pastor was the boss for us

Interesting choice of words. For us the local pastor wasn't the "boss", he was, er, the pastor. Big difference. But in either case, the local pastor was guided by the Holy Father, so papal teaching was reaching us through him. One would hope that is still the case for our local pastors.

>23 MsMixte: - >25 MsMixte:

Just arrived home from a week in South Sudan where I co-facilitated a workshop on nonviolence, attended a public launch of my 2022 book, and had meetings with a variety of ecumenical Church leaders, including our Catholic archbishop. An interesting and productive week.

I recall I promised a few reflections on papal infallibility. I'm not a theologian, although like many Catholics, I have studied theology. Papal infallibility is a complex and oft-misundertood (or misrepresented) topic, but most of the following is easy to find on the internet and didn't take me long to put together.

In a nutshell, not every papal teaching is automatically classed as infallible. Pope Benedict XVI once said, "The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know," and Pope John XXIII said, "I am only infallible if I speak infallibly but I shall never do that, so I am not infallible" (link). Popes can err and sin, but that does not mean that individual Catholics can just ignore (or dismiss, ridicule, vilify or declare heretical) papal statements that they don't like.

On relatively rare occasions infallibility is explicitly pronounced ex cathedra, ie "from the chair (of Peter)", on a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole Church, declared either by the pope alone or with the bishops. The doctrine of infallibility was defined by Pope Pius XI in 1870, but it is believed that it existed in a less formal sense from the beginning of the Church. The most recent explicit infallible doctrine was the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary defined by Pope Pius XII in 1950, again something which had been part of the belief of the Church for many centuries.

The phrase "to be held by the whole Church" is important, and brings in the concept of the sensus fidelium, the assent of the faithful, "the supernatural appreciation of faith on the part of the whole people, when, from the bishops to the last of the faithful, they manifest a universal consent in matters of faith and morals" (Catechism #92). The Church is not a democracy, but nevertheless the Holy Spirit cannot contradict herself and inspire the pope to make an infallible statement while at the same time inspiring the bulk of the 1.3 billion Catholics to dissent from it. Hence it is to be expected that infallible teachings will receive near-universal assent, even if people fall short in implementing them. As Lumen Gentium teaches (#12):

The holy people of God shares also in Christ's prophetic office; it spreads abroad a living witness to Him... The entire body of the faithful, anointed as they are by the Holy One, cannot err in matters of belief. They manifest this special property by means of the whole peoples' supernatural discernment in matters of faith when "from the Bishops down to the last of the lay faithful" they show universal agreement in matters of faith and morals. That discernment in matters of faith is aroused and sustained by the Spirit of truth. It is exercised under the guidance of the sacred teaching authority...

Another important factor is the pope teaching with the world's bishops. Thus there is a strong presumption of infallibility in the teachings of major ecumenical councils such as the first seven ecumenical councils of the early Church, convened in what is now Turkey, and in modern times the First and Second Vatican Councils, where all the bishops of the world are present with the Holy Father.

Finally a statement on the authority of the pope and the bishops even when they are not explicitly speaking infallibly (Lumen Gentium #25):

Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.

"Respected by all... the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it... his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence... judgements sincerely adhered to..." Hm. A strong teaching to all loyal, faithful and traditional Catholics.

In a thread started by someone in the USA which appears to be mainly devoted to vilifying Pope Francis, it might be refreshing to see what is being said about the pope elsewhere in our world, on a continent where the Church is vibrant and growing.

Africa “deeply grateful”: Catholic Bishops on 10 Years of Pope Francis’ Pontificate (ACI Africa)

The people of God in Africa are “deeply grateful” to Pope Francis for his service to Global Catholicism in the last 10 years, the leadership of the Symposium of Episcopal Conference of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM) has said... “The Continent is deeply grateful to you for coming to us as a pilgrim of hope, and praying with us for peace, justice and reconciliation and helping us to raise our voices for our economic independence”... In his “Congratulatory Message”, the President of SECAM says that the 10 years of Pope Francis’ Pontificate have been marked by his “special attention to the Lord Jesus' preferred ones: the poor, migrants, refugees and all those who live in geographical and existential peripheries.” “And here you have touched with hand and heart the 1,340,598,147 inhabitants of Africa who live in these challenging situations”... “We have seen the development of a missionary option which, by transforming everything, makes customs, language and the whole ecclesial structure become a channel for evangelisation of the present world rather than a means of self-preservation... These are ten years of prophetic and servant leadership that goes beyond the boundaries of the Catholic Church and dialogues with the whole world"... "If we want a more fraternal world, we must educate the new generations to recognize, value and love all people regardless of their physical proximity, regardless of the point on earth where each one was born or lives.” He adds, “Human ecology is inseparable from the notion of the common good, a principle that plays a central and unifying role in social ethics”...

And lest it be claimed that Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besungu, the Archbishop of Kinshasa, and SECAM are part of some sort of elite cabal which supports the Holy Father against the wishes of the majority of Catholics, there are several articles from various parts of Africa reinforcing the same basic message here. brone has from time to time rightly criticised the exploitation of Congo's mineral wealth and the resulting death and suffering in that country, so the good cardinal's gratitude to Pope Francis for "praying with us for peace, justice and reconciliation and helping us to raise our voices for our economic independence” will no doubt be welcomed.

Incidentally I've just returned home from a week spent with Catholic and protestant church leaders in South Sudan, where last month's ecumenical pilgrimage by the Holy Father, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Moderator of the Church of Scotland is still fresh in people's minds, and there is not a bad word to be heard anywhere from anyone about the pope. Most of the small but vocal opposition to this pope seems to come from very small groups mainly in the USA, UK and France, as well as from vested interests within the Vatican itself, certainly not from the countries and continents where most of the Catholics in the world live. Sad.

>36 John5918: Thank you, that is very helpful and I appreciate you taking the time to set it out for us.

>39 brone:

For the record, and for what it's worth, I am not the one who started this thread.

I've posted this in the Catholic Tradition group, but I also post it here as I think it is relevant to the topic and to much of the criticism of the pope contained in this thread. Those who find it difficult to understand Pope Francis, Fr Stan Chu Ilo says, "hold onto a theology without aesthetics." What such people have, he further says, is "a theology that does not have life in it" and a mere "collection of statements, sanctions, and condemnations."

Why is Pope Francis Sometimes Misunderstood? Nigerian Catholic Theologian Explains (ACI Africa)

Not everyone, including some Theologians, understands the theology of Pope Francis, a Nigerian-born Catholic Theologian has said. According to Fr. Stan Chu Ilo, a Research Professor in the Department of Catholic Studies at DePaul University, people who want “a Church with pre-packaged answers” and those who find it difficult to grasp what he describes as the “aesthetics” of Pope Francis’ theology are most likely to misunderstand the Holy Father. “Whoever doesn't understand the theological aesthetics of Pope Francis is likely to misunderstand him,” Fr. Stan told ACI Africa on March 5, when he shared about how the Holy Father has shaped his own work. “Some people want a pure Church; a Church with pre-packaged answers. Catholics who are used to the idea of ‘what is the Church saying’ find it difficult to understand most messages of Pope Francis," Fr. Stan said. He added, “Pope Francis is saying that we don't have answers to a lot of things that are happening in the world today and that we have to enter into mysteries guided by the Holy Spirit. When we do this, based on what we encounter, God will allow us to see the face of the poor man of Galilee. We need to accept that there are people who do not accept the same conclusion, and my work has been to give a theological explanation of this.” Those who find it difficult to understand Pope Francis, Fr. Stan says, “hold onto a theology without aesthetics.” What such people have, the Catholic Priest says, is “a theology that does not have life in it” and a mere “collection of statements, sanctions, and condemnations.” Pope Francis, U.S.-based member of the Clergy of Nigeria’s Awgu Diocese says, “brings theology to life”... “Pope Francis has changed the tone of messaging and leadership at the Vatican. He hasn't altered any teachings of the church regarding some of the topics that have been seen as controversial, including family, sexuality, gender theories, and celibacy; but rather, he has introduced a new ecclesial climate that is more open, inclusive, and one that orients itself as a humble, poor and merciful Church that listens,” Fr. Stan says. He adds, “We now have a Church that is listening more and more to the voices from the peripheries of people who feel abandoned and regarded as sinners. We have a Church where those who are divorced and separated are welcome to find healing under a tent of comfort”...

>43 brone: homosexual priests

Nobody is surprised that there are a lot of homosexual priests and bishops. Whatever the percentage of homosexual people is in the general population is likely to be mirrored in any particular group, including clergy, and probably always has been. Five years ago there was a thread on LT discussing the issue, and I seem to recall earlier conversations as well. What is new is the use of spy software to invade the privacy of individuals who are doing nothing illegal. Now that might well be illegal in some jurisdictions and almost certainly breaches privacy and data protection regulations. Are there law suits on the horizon, I wonder?

US group spends millions to track priests on gay dating apps (Tablet)

A non-profit group in Colorado, Catholic Laity and Clergy for Renewal, “spent millions of dollars to buy mobile app tracking data that identified priests who used gay dating and hookup apps and then shared it with bishops around the country”, according to The Washington Post. The revelation follows a similar use of cellphone data in 2021 to out Mgr Jeffrey Burrill, who was then the general secretary of the US bishops’ conference... There is no known previous example in the history of the Catholic Church in the United States of a bishop participating in an effort to spy on his clergy... the information purchased was done without the consent of those being spied upon. Ethicists have raised profound questions about such usages of data...

Note that Catholic clergy are expected to be celibate, regardless of their sexual orientation. Are we now going to see US Catholic vigilante groups spending millions of dollars to spy on all clergy to check whether or not they are living celibate lives?

no one hears the cry of the obedient priests

Actually priests have a big voice in the Church, and currently there is a global consultation process, the Synod on Synodality, giving everybody, including both "obedient" and "disobedient" priests, a platform to air their views. Those who choose not to participate are on weak ground if they claim that no-one hears their cry.

homosexual predators

I'm just noting that in your last line you have changed the focus from homosexuals to "predators". The two are very different. Casually linking them is careless and misleading at best, and homophobic at worst.

>42 brone: Nicaragua

Your preferred sources of information which you omit to cite (indeed you are very silent about them) must have missed the pope's condemnations of Nicaragua. Not what I would call "silent".

Nicaragua 'suspends' relations with Holy See (Tablet)

Pope Francis said: “I have no other choice but to think that {Ortega} is mentally unbalanced.” He praised the jailed Bishop of Matagalpa, Rolando Álvarez, who was sentenced to 26 years imprisonment in February, as “a very responsible man, a very capable man”... “He wanted to testify and did not accept exile,” said Francis. The Nicaraguan regime’s conduct, he said, was “like bringing back the 1917 communist dictatorship, or the 1935 Hitler dictatorship”. Francis continued: “They are a type of crass dictatorship. Or, to use a nice Argentinian expression, guarangas. Uncouth”...

>46 brone:

There are some heterosexual predators and paedophiles and there are some homosexual predators and paedophiles, thankfully a very small percentage of both sexual orientations, ie most priests, whether homosexual or heterosexual, do not abuse children. We should address the issue of the minority who do. Hounding homosexual people does not address the issue of paedophilia and predation.

>51 brone: approved victim

I don't think I've ever heard that term before. Would you care to enlighten us as to what you mean by it? The loss of any human life is a tragedy, and I'm sure many Christians, including the Catholic nuns whom you deride, prayed for all the victims. And I'm sure we're all also praying that disturbed ("lunatic", to use your word) young persons should not have access to military grade firearms of a type praised by the Pentagon for its “phenomenal lethality” (link).

You show a remarkable lack of charity towards nuns who have dedicated their lives to the Church and are doing tremendous work throughout the world, often under difficult and dangerous conditions. In South Sudan alone we've had three nuns martyred in recent years. I don't know about you, but I am humbled by the example set by these courageous religious women.

Whatever one believes about transgender and gay issues, the bottom line for the Church should always be charity and mercy, and respect for the dignity of every individual human being, created in the image and likeness of God and in whom we should try to see Christ; hate speech and ridicule towards any group of persons is distinctly un-Christian. It's always worth remembering Jesus' attitude towards the marginalised, stigmatised and vulnerable groups of his own religion, culture and society - foreigners, lepers and other sick people, sex workers, women, children, criminals, disabled, mentally disturbed ("possessed"), enemies, sinners, even individual members of the brutal foreign occupying power. He always treated them all with respect, engaged with them, sought to include rather than exclude them - he loved them.

>50 brone: trendy social justice scam

Social justice is neither trendy nor a scam. Whether you like it or not, it is well-established (albeit not always well-known) traditional Catholic doctrine. It is founded on the life and teaching of Jesus and on Scripture (both Old and New Testaments), and is part of the Tradition of the Church. Its disparate parts began to be drawn together into a single body after Pope Leo XIII published his encyclical Rerum Novarum in 1891, and a summary of the accumulated doctrine can be found in The Compendium of the Social Doctrine of the Church, a text that stands alongside the Catechism in importance for Catholics who want to learn about Church doctrine.

Edited to add: A term which pops into my mind here is "cafeteria Catholics". It's a pejorative which has been used in the past by a handful of Catholics who describe themselves as "traditionalists" to disparage the rest of us, implying (wrongly, of course) that we pick and choose which bits of Catholic doctrine we follow, as one might select food items in a cafeteria buffet; if you look back a few years in the LT "Catholic Tradition" group you'll see it there. But it strikes me that we have a new generation of "cafeteria Catholics" who really do pick and choose which bits of doctrine they accept. They're very focused on sexual morality, for example, and on a single aspect of the comprehensive ethic of life, but they appear to reject Catholic teaching on liturgy, they actively oppose other aspects of the ethic of life, they ignore Catholic Social Doctrine, they ridicule and denigrate the teaching authority of the pope and the college of bishops, and they seem to have completely sidelined the virtues of charity and mercy. And yet they often claim to be the only "true" "loyal" "faithful" Catholics. Strange.

And edited again to add a link to a not "silent Francis", In open dialogue with Pope, ten young people ask tough questions (Vatican News), which I just noticed this morning.

Pope Francis engages in conversation in Spanish with ten young people, most far from the Church, answering questions on a host of modern-day issues such as sexual identity, feminism, abortion, migration, abuse, loss of faith, the role of women and more...

I'm pleasantly surprised at how much of what I had earlier written fits in with what Pope Francis is saying. What sticks out for me is that he is primarily a pastor, not a demagogue, judge, politician or policeman. Thanks be to God! And I think the following quote from Francis is relevant to the position taken by brone and their fellow travellers within the Catholic Church: "When there is no witness, the Church suffers, because it turns into a club of good people, who carry out their religious gestures, but do not have the courage to go out to the peripheries. For me this is fundamental. When you look at reality from the centre, without wanting to, you put up protective barriers that take you away from reality and you lose your sense of reality. If you want to see what reality is, go to the peripheries. You want to know what social injustice is? Go to the outskirts. And when I say periphery, I am not just talking about poverty, but about cultural, existential peripheries." A club of good people, who carry out their religious gestures, but do not go out to the peripheries; hm, does that description sound familiar?

>54 brone:

Sounds good. Courageously going to the peripheries, knowing that there'll be a few grumpy old grouches in the "club of good people" who will not only fail to understand but will also attack them for their charitable Christian initiative.

>53 John5918:

Another extract from the pope's encounter with young people: Francis: 'infiltrators' use Church to peddle hate (The Tablet)

Those using the Bible to promote hate speech and exclude gay or transgender Catholics are “infiltrators” taking advantage of the Church to promote their ideologies, Pope Francis has told a group of young adults... “They are infiltrators who use the Church for their personal passions, for their personal narrowness. It’s one of the corruptions within the Church. Those narrow-minded ideologies.” The Pope has faced deep hostility in some quarters for his refusal to take a “culture warrior” stance on sexual teaching. Throughout his pontificate, Francis has adopted a pastorally sensitive approach to LGBTQ Catholics, supported civil protections of same-sex couples and called for the de-criminalisation of homosexuality... The Jesuit Pope told the young people that “deep within” those who promote hate are “severe inconsistencies” and that they judge other people due to their sinfulness. “They judge others because they can’t atone for their own faults,” Francis said. “In general, people who judge are inconsistent. There’s something within them. They feel liberated by judging others, when they should look inside at their own guilt.” The Pope insisted that every person is a “child of God” and that when the Church stops welcoming everybody – “the blind, the deaf, the good, the bad” – it will “stop being the Church”...

>54 brone: I don't usually comment, but I will here. Do you have a reliable source for this? All I could find was this rant: https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/B001-Cal.htm and nothing else. By the way, you'll notice that nobody has a "mark of Shiva" on any of the photos included. I also followed the link included to the video of the event. It's a standard Catholic school show, with dance performances over popular secular songs, lots of Christian preaching in between, readings from the Bible, Catholic hymns, and no Shaivism ( or any other flavour of Hinduism) that I could detect. It is however also very Indian, as you'd expect from an Indian school. If you're not scandalised when a Catholic school in the US celebrate the Fourth of July, you shouldn't be scandalised by this.

In this day and age, we should not still have to explain that using local idioms to express oneself and one's religiousness - whether it be a dance style, music, or traditional clothes and decorations - does not imply adherence to another religion. The traditioninaction.org "article" is extraordinarily ignorant.

>58 brone:

I think you've completely missed the point of Dilara's post. The good sisters did not dress or dance as "Hindus", they dressed and danced according to the culture and traditions of the society in which they live, just as US Christians dress and dance according to the culture of the society in which they live.

>60 brone:

Just as a matter of fact, tens of thousands of Catholics pray to Allah, because Allah is simply the Arabic word for God. The official Arabic translation of the Roman Missal uses the word Allah. It's no different than the French praying to Dieu, for example. I've spent many years of my life praying to Allah in Sudan, along with the cardinal, the bishops and every other Sudanese and South Sudanese Catholic. These official Catholic translations are used by Catholics throughout the Arabic-speaking world. Likewise in many African languages, Christians have translated the word God into an existing local word for God. And we should never forget the words of St Paul in Acts 17:23: "as I strolled round looking at your sacred monuments, I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you."

And again to correct an error, most African traditional religions are not "animist". This was a label given to them erroneously, and not without a degree of racism and white supremacy, by colonialists who didn't take the trouble to understand African religion and who sought to demean it. Many African religions in fact worship one God, just as we do.

And ecumenism generally refers to dialogue and cooperation between different Christian denominations, not between different religions. That is usually referred to as inter-faith.

And Buddhists don't believe in a deity, and Buddha is not a god.

Need I go on? Your rants are so full of basic errors that they make no sense whatsoever.

As a matter of interest, have you ever read Nostra aetate, the Catholic Church's teaching on non-Christian religions?

Pope Francis appeals to Russians over invasion of Ukraine in Easter message (Guardian)

Pope Francis appeared to ask Russians to seek the truth about their country’s invasion of Ukraine in his Easter message to the world on Sunday and appealed for dialogue between Israelis and Palestinians after recent violence... he spoke of “the darkness and the gloom in which, all too often, our world finds itself enveloped”, and prayed for peace. “Help the beloved Ukrainian people on their journey towards peace, and shed the light of Easter upon the people of Russia,” he said. Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February last year, Francis has at least twice a week referred to Ukraine and its people as being “martyred” and has used words such as aggression and atrocities to describe Russia’s actions. On Sunday he asked God to “comfort the wounded and all those who have lost loved ones because of the war, and grant that prisoners may return safe and sound to their families. Open the hearts of the entire international community to strive to end this war and all conflict and bloodshed in our world. ” As he has done every Easter, Francis called for peace in the Middle East, his appeal made more urgent by recent violence in Jerusalem and cross-border exchanges of fire involving Israel, Lebanon and Syria... Francis also mentioned instability in Lebanon, expressed the hope that the “martyred Rohingya people” of Myanmar “may encounter justice”, and called for more aid for the victims of earthquakes in February that killed nearly 56,000 people in Turkey and Syria. In a section of the address where he mentioned Nicaragua, the pope asked God to “remember all who are prevented from freely and publicly professing their faith”...

Not so silent.

>64 brone:

I'm very sorry and surprised to see that you promote such relativism, the idea that there is no Absolute Truth, that ecumenism is undogmatic, etc. It is at odds with the teaching of the Catholic Church, and also at odds with authentic attempts at ecumenical unity. Ecumenism is about as dogmatic as you can get, following the express wish of Jesus, "May they all be one, just as, Father, you are in me and I am in you, so that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe it was you who sent me" (John 17:21).

Have you ever read the Catholic Church's teaching on ecumenism, Unitatis redintegratio and subsequent documents?

Have you ever experienced how positive it is for everybody (including for each separate faith community) when Christian churches and/or inter-faith groups work and pray together for peace and justice (as in Sudan and South Sudan, for example, or northern Uganda, or Northern Ireland, or during apartheid in South Africa)? "How good, how delightful it is to live as brothers {and sisters} all together!" (Psalm 133:1)

Incidentally, I think you're still confusing/conflating ecumenism and inter-faith.

And another outspoken global Christian leader:

Justin Welby to predict ‘divine justice’ for oppressive rulers in Easter sermons (Guardian)

The archbishop of Canterbury will use his Easter sermons to warn that “those who oppress and subjugate others will face divine justice”. Justin Welby will tell Canterbury Cathedral that while “cruel and oppressive rulers” may look as though they are only becoming stronger, they will “vanish”... “Cruel and oppressive rulers might look as though they only get stronger,” he will say. “Yet they will vanish: the power of the resurrection is infinitely greater than they are. Even in our lifetimes, as we are surrounded by fears, even by evil, we know that those who oppress and subjugate others will face divine justice. We know with certainty that policies that cause suffering and pain will fall away. We can say surely: all that seeks to deny God has no future – all that shares in the risen life of Jesus is eternal.” Reflecting on the war in Ukraine, as well as other conflicts around the world, the archbishop will tell congregants that “we must not lose heart” in the face of conflict. He will add that this is because “true peace is no aimless daydream, but a reality offered because Christ was raised from the dead. Life triumphs over death, light over darkness”...

I post this rather long piece in this thread about Pope Francis as I think it is relevant to a lot of brone's attacks on the pope and the Catholic Church. brone will no doubt be surprised at the headline, as in their own posts they try to make out that the pope is the darling of the extreme left, marxists, communists, etc. I think it is a poor headline, as what the article is actually saying is that the pope has disappointed both extremes within the Church, both extreme "left" and "right" if one can use such political terms about the Church, or perhaps extreme "progressive" and "conservative" (or self-styled "traditionalist"), although I find all such labels inadequate. It's worth reading, as an objective and balanced appraisal by an African bishop who is not part of any European or north American "culture wars" (whether political or religious), backed up by a theologian priest from another part of the African continent. But above all it shows how the pope is a pastor seeking unity, not a culture warrior seeking “a Church with pre-packaged answers”. And thank God that the group who "appreciate the leadership of Pope Francis" makes up by far the largest majority within the Catholic Church, and I think also amongst other Christians and people of good will of all faiths and none. The good bishop's suggestions in the last paragraph on the way forward for a polarised Church are well worth humbly taking to heart.

Pope Francis’ Pastoral Leadership Upsets “extreme leftist group”: South African Bishop (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis stands out for adopting a pastoral style of leadership, which has left the Church polarized, the Bishop of Mthatha in South Africa has said... Bishop Sithembele Anton Sipuka speaks broadly about the Holy Father who he describes as “a Pope of communion and Synodality”, “a Pope of simplicity and accessibility” as well as “a Pope presiding over a polarized Church”. In his description of “a polarized Church”, Bishop Sipuka identifies various groups of people, including those he says appreciate the leadership of Pope Francis. The South African Catholic Bishop also identifies what he describes as “the extreme group on the left” who he says are “annoyed with the Pope” for not moving fast and making radical changes in the Church. “Pope Francis’ call about prioritizing the identity of the Church and being pastoral has been met with varying reactions. These reactions range from a balanced sense of appreciation of what the Pope is doing to a sense of disappointment for not doing enough and to a sense of anger and disgust for allegedly changing the nature of the Church,” Bishop Sipuka says... He explains, “In other words, some realize that the Pope is doing nothing new but implementing the Vatican II vision of the Church in which everybody feels part of the Church and in which all formations are given space to exercise roles proper to them in a harmonized manner that advances the mission of the Church. This group understands the Pope as not seeking to change any moral or dogmatic teaching of the Church but to apply them in a pastoral, contextual, and caring manner”...On the “far-right group”, he says, are people who think that the call for a communal and Synodal Church by Pope Francis is a trick to change the true nature of the Church by substituting her teachings and traditions for liberal views and secular ideologies. According to the President of the Southern African Catholic Bishops’ Conference (SACBC), the leftist reaction is more prevalent in Europe, while the far-right view “vociferously” prevails in America and “silently” exists in Africa.

Bishop Sipuka’s sentiments echo the observation of Fr. Stan Chu Ilo, a Research Professor in the Department of Catholic Studies at DePaul University, who noted that while Pope Francis has introduced a paradigm shift in the Church, he does not seek to alter the Church teachings, especially pertaining to issues considered controversial. “Pope Francis has changed the tone of messaging and leadership at the Vatican. He hasn't altered any teachings of the church regarding some of the topics that have been seen as controversial, including family, sexuality, gender theories, and celibacy; but rather, he has introduced a new ecclesial climate that is more open, inclusive, and one that orients itself as a humble, poor and merciful Church that listens,” Fr. Stan told ACI Africa on March 5, when he shared about how the Holy Father has shaped his work. He added, “We now have a Church that is listening more and more to the voices from the peripheries of people who feel abandoned and regarded as sinners. We have a Church where those who are divorced and separated are welcome to find healing under a tent of comfort”... not everyone, including some Theologians, understands the theology of Pope Francis... Fr. Stan explained why Pope Francis is sometimes misunderstood, noting that people who want “a Church with pre-packaged answers” and those who find it difficult to grasp what he described as the “aesthetics” of Pope Francis’ theology are most likely to misunderstand the Holy Father. “Whoever doesn't understand the theological aesthetics of Pope Francis is likely to misunderstand him,” Fr. Stan said, and added, “Some people want a pure Church; a Church with pre-packaged answers. Catholics who are used to the idea of ‘what is the Church saying’ find it difficult to understand most messages of Pope Francis.” He added, “Pope Francis is saying that we don't have answers to a lot of things that are happening in the world today and that we have to enter into mysteries guided by the Holy Spirit. When we do this, based on what we encounter, God will allow us to see the face of the poor man of Galilee. We need to accept that there are people who do not accept the same conclusion, and my work has been to give a theological explanation of this.”

Meanwhile, Bishop Sipuka has proposed “as the way forward in this polarization”, to remember that the people of God are people of faith, “not just a club gathered by similar ideas and coinciding personality temperaments.” “We must remember that we are gathered not by our agreement but by common baptism, which invites us to look further than ourselves when differences occur,” Bishop Sipuka says in the reflection published April 3, and adds, “We must therefore seek together what the will of God is by looking at the tradition of the Church in a Spirit-guided (not political or ideological) way with the openness to modifying our ideas as we listen to each other.” The SACBC President observes that journeying together in the Synodality that Pope Francis proposes calls for charity, humility, and patience.

>68 brone: The faith doesn'take paragraphs to explain. It can be explained in a few words that are simple, One, True, Holy and Apostolic

Of course. No disagreement with you there, although you omitted catholic, ie universal. But if those words are to be anything other than empty slogans they need to be unpacked, understood and lived. That's why we have (and have had since the earliest times) theology, often described as "faith seeking understanding". And that's why we have the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the pope and bishops guided by the Holy Spirit and affirmed by the sensus fidei, the assent of the faithful Christians, to help us to develop our understanding of it. It's possible and commendable to have faith without all the "paragraphs", and I know many excellent Christians whose simple faith humbles my own meagre efforts. But if you wish to set yourself up to publicly reject the doctrine of the Church and the guidance of the pope, particularly when the vast majority of Catholics don't agree with either your position or the way you express it, I would suggest that you really should pay some attention to the theology. If you mock and dismiss in principle the "paragraphs" of theology, you're also mocking Augustine, Aquinas and all the other great Doctors of the Church.

doctrines evolve and that what was right 10 years ago is wrong today

The first part of that sentence is partly right, in that our understanding of doctrine evolves, rather than the fundamental doctrine itself. The second part is nonsense.

If I simply say that men need an altar (as I Have) I am told today the superstitions of the remote people and their pagan customs are now normal

Nobody has said an altar is not needed, although I would suggest that it is needed by women and children as well, not only men, and I'm not as concerned about its shape and appearance as you seem to be. Nobody is saying anything about "superstitions" and "pagan customs", both of which are value-laden and dismissive terms. If you're speaking about inculturated forms of liturgy, has your local parish started having regular Sunday mass according to the Eastern Catholic rite, or the Zaire or Mayan rites? No, I expect your parish has mass according to the universal rite of the Church, which is indeed "normal". So what are you complaining about?

elites

As I have tried to explain to you but you are not listening, these initiatives are not being driven by "elites". They're being driven by ordinary Catholics in some of the poorest, most marginalised parts of the world and the Church. Liberation theology in particular, which you seem to abhor, is very much a grassroots theology, developed by and with the ordinary Catholics in the pews. "Elites" is a word that could be used about the powerful and comfortable who are trying to stifle these outbreaks of the Holy Spirit and to continue to maintain a western-dominated form of Christianity.

>69 brone:

No, Karl Marx was a 19th century German philosopher, economist, historian, sociologist, political theorist, journalist, critic of political economy, and socialist revolutionary. I've seen his grave in Highgate Cemetery in London. Jesus the Christ doesn't have a grave, as he was resurrected. He was a carpenter and Son of God who lived nearly two millennia before Marx and preached universal love and salvation. I'm sorry if you are confused about that.

But they do have some points in common. Both were revolutionaries, both were deeply committed to their beliefs and to the good of the poor and the marginalised, both were persecuted, and both have since been vilified and had their messages twisted and co-opted by what Pope Francis has called "infiltrators", who promote hate and who have “severe inconsistencies”.

>71 brone:

If you look through some of the Holy Father's recent statements, I think you'll find that he includes those who try to co-opt Christianity into their left-right wing political struggles and culture wars, as well as those who lose sight of love and mercy.

Edited to add: Reposting this from the LT Catholic Tradition group as it might also provide part of the answer to your question:

Pope Francis tells ‘keyboard warriors’ to put aside online polemics to proclaim the Gospel (Tablet)

Pope Francis has told “keyboard warriors” to put aside online polemics and get out from behind their desks to proclaim the Gospel... “One does not proclaim the Gospel standing still, locked in an office, at one’s desk or at one’s computer, engaging in polemics like ‘keyboard warriors’ and replacing the creativity of proclamation with copy-and-paste ideas taken from here and there,” Pope Francis said. “The Gospel is proclaimed by moving, by walking, by going”... the pope warned that it is possible to have “misdirected zeal” that is “doggedly persistent in the observance of purely human and obsolete norms for the Christian community.” “We cannot ignore the solicitude with which some devote themselves to the wrong pursuits even within the Christian community itself; one can boast of a false evangelical zeal while actually pursuing vainglory or one’s own convictions,” he said...

Would you agree that here we often fall into that same trap which the Holy Father warns of? For my part in this dynamic, mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

>74 brone:

I think you do Pope Benedict XVI an injustice if you think his "most important contribution as a pope" was a minor document making a limited concession to placate a handful of disaffected Catholics. I would suggest he contributed far more than that to the Church and to the world.

>76 brone:

And why wouldn't a pastor reach out to people who are on the margins of, even rejected by, society? Jesus did. A "bad bar joke"? That's probably what the Scribes and Pharisees said about him.

And why wouldn't a missionary make use of a popular media channel to spread the Gospel? There's a lot of stories on Catholic internet sites in Africa at the moment about the missionary work of the Daughters of St Paul, an order of nuns founded more than a century ago whose charism is publishing and media. Missionaries used to wade through the swamps spreading the Word (and indeed in a few cases they still have to do that - I certainly have, and a priest colleague recently told me that 80% of his parish in South Sudan is currently under water due to nationwide floods), but there are many other fruitful channels for evangelisation nowadays.

Have you actually read objective accounts of what Pope Francis said to these young people? There are articles about it here on LT. Call me old fashioned (traditional even), but I've always found that when people who know more about Church doctrine than I do teach about it, especially when those people happen to include the pope and the bishops who are the legitimate teaching authorities, then it behoves me to listen humbly and learn from them rather than deriding them and dismissing them out of hand. No idea what you mean by a "pro Catholic" (sex worker, maybe?), but if you bother to read it you'll find there was one young lady who was quite "conventionally" Catholic, and the Holy Father affirmed her in her faith.

Incidentally, if you were to type "Francis" instead of "Bergoglio, Borgoglio, Begoglio" you might save time and also spell it right - and be taken more seriously. Just a helpful hint.

neomarxist Disney channel

Do you not realise how ridiculous that sounds? Disney represents capitalism par excellence.

One that is very close to home for me. I'm following events in Sudan closely. Needless to say, I have many friends and colleagues there.

Pope Francis Asks for Prayers for Sudan as Military Factions Battle for Control (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis asked people to pray for Sudan on Sunday, that the country’s rival military factions might lay down their weapons and pursue peace. “I am following with concern the events unfolding in Sudan,” he said April 16... Fighting intensified in Sudan’s capital of Khartoum and in other cities April 16 after skirmishes broke out Saturday morning between the Sudan army and the rival Rapid Support Forces (RSF) paramilitary group. The clashes have erupted after almost a year and a half of military rule, and have ended hopes for a peaceful transition of power... Pope Francis also wished Orthodox Christians a happy Easter, while lamenting the ongoing wars in the world. “Unfortunately, in strike contrast to the Easter message, wars are continuing, and they continue to sow death in horrific ways,” he said. “Let us grieve over these atrocities and let us pray for the victims, asking God that the world might never more have to experience the shock of violent death by human hand, but awe of the life that he gives and renews with his grace.”

>81 brone:

It's true that there are many Anglicans who are open to recognising the leadership of the pope, particularly in the "high Anglican", "Anglo-Catholic" or "Anglican Catholic" wing of that church. When Pope John Paul II was elected I happened to be in an Anglican parish church as I was visiting an Anglican friend that weekend, and the homily from the parish priest welcoming and praising the new pope would have set an example to many Catholic priests.

It's just a shame that a small group of Catholics, including apparently your good self, are so dismissive of the leadership of the pope.

Fact check

>83 brone: hermeneutic of continuity

This is a term popularised by the late Pope Benedict XVI in contrast to a "hermeneutic of rupture". Not sure how you connect it to Pope Francis, and it is not "gobbledegook" - it is and always has been a guiding principle of the Catholic Church, although the term used for it may be relatively new.

>84 brone: the silence of most of his bishops

All the bishops are "his" in the sense that the pope is the first amongst equals and is universally recognised as the head of the Catholic Church. Personally I don't find either the pope or the bishops to be silent. I'm reading statements by them every day on multiple issues of importance, including China, human sexuality, and child slavery, all of which seem to be focus issues for you.

the recent decision to decriminalize Pedophilia by... the United Nations

U.N.-backed report doesn’t say adults having sex with children is OK (PolitiFact)

The International Commission of Jurists published a set of legal principles in March about applying a human rights-based approach to criminal law on matters involving sex, reproduction and other areas. It did not call for decriminalizing adults having sex with minors, nor does it mention the topic. A U.N. official and human rights experts said the principle being wrongly characterized refers to applying criminal law to similarly aged adolescents in which one may be under the legal age of consent...

>86 brone:

As I understand it, this report is not about sex between adults and minors, which remains illegal, and I'm not sure why you continue to misrepresent it. The point is how to deal with two children having a sexual encounter, assuming it is not coerced. Do we want a pair of twelve year-olds who experiment sexually to be treated like adult paedophiles? They need to be taught that this is not appropriate, they need counselling, they need support from their parents, but what they don't need is to be taken to court and find themselves with a criminal record for the rest of their lives. We Christians are staunch supporters of the family, and so we should support measures to avoid breaking up a family.

>88 brone:

Pope Francis has consistently spoken out against abortion, most recently, I think, in his encounter with young people in a Disney documentary which has been referenced elsewhere.

>90 brone:

I assume you're still referring to the UN report regarding the legal treatment of child offenders? Nobody is trying to "walk it back" nor to look for a "loophole". The document means what it says, and that is what the writers intended. What it doesn't mean is whatever fantasy (mis)interpretation has been projected onto it by right wing social media.

I had to look up Saul Alinsky. Seems like a good bloke. Although a Jewish agnostic, a lot of what he said and did resonates with Catholic social doctrine. I wonder if he had read Pope Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum? I like his epitaph, "Alinsky was a true believer in the possibilities of American democracy as a means to social justice" (Wikipedia). Sad that American democracy is now in such a precarious state, and that it has not made much headway with social justice.

Pope Francis Calls Abortion "senseless" and Criticizes Gender Theory in Hungary Speech (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis spoke out strongly against abortion and gender ideology Friday, citing both as examples of “ideological colonization” during a speech in Budapest... he lamented “self-referential forms of populism” and “supranationalism” gaining traction in Europe. “This is the baneful path taken by those forms of ‘ideological colonization’ that would cancel differences, as in the case of the so-called gender theory, or that would place before the reality of life reductive concepts of freedom, for example by vaunting as progress a senseless ‘right to abortion,’ which is always a tragic defeat,” said the pope, who is in Budapest for a three-day visit. “How much better it would be to build a Europe centered on the human person and on its peoples, with effective policies for natality and the family — policies that are pursued attentively in this country — a Europe whose different nations would form a single family that protects the growth and uniqueness of each of its members,” the Holy Father said...

Sounds pretty unequivocal to me.

>84 brone: ff

I don't think this case is one of the ones dealt with in the UN report, as clearly the sexual contact was non-consensual and was not between children of a similar age, but it highlights the difficulty of dealing with children who commit offences (of any sort, not only sexual assault). The judge's comments are worth noting. There is a difficult balance to be had between protecting society and criminalising our children. Whether or not the good judge made the best decision in this case is of course arguable, but there are no simple black-and-white one-size-fits-all solutions for the criminal justice system when dealing with young children.

Boy, 13, avoids custody after four sexual assaults in Telford (Guardian)

The judge told the boy he would have been jailed for eight or nine years for the offences of attempted rape and sexual assault if he had been an adult. But he explained to the court that any custodial sentence would have to be reduced to three years for a 13-year-old, and that would mean he would be released in 18 months. Lowe said he was worried detention would provide no rehabilitation and the defendant would “come out bigger, stronger and more sexually active without these issues ever having been addressed”. He told the court this left him with a “stark choice” between custody or an attempt at some form of rehabilitation. The judge opted for a youth rehabilitation order with a supervision order for 30 months after hearing he would be housed at a specialist therapeutic unit for at least the next 18 months, where he is already engaging with the programme. He said he had to “balance what a 13-year-old needs and what society needs when women are seriously accosted in the street for no reason”...

Pope Francis Says Traditional Latin Mass was Being Used in an Ideological Way (ACI Africa)

During the question and answer session, Pope Francis said he was concerned about a “reaction against the modern,” or what he calls in Italian “indietrismo,” which translates in English to “backwardness.” “It is a nostalgic disease,” he said... “After all the necessary consultations, I decided this because I saw that the good pastoral measures put in place by John Paul II and Benedict XVI were being used in an ideological way, to go backward. It was necessary to stop this ‘indietrismo,’ which was not in the pastoral vision of my predecessors”... “And,” he added, “I know the resistance to its decrees is terrible. There is incredible support for restorationism, what I call ‘indietrismo’ (backwardness), as the Letter to the Hebrews (10:39) says: ‘But we do not belong to those who shrink back.’” “The flow of history and grace goes from the roots upward like the sap of a tree that bears fruit. But without this flow you remain a mummy,” he said. “Going backwards does not preserve life, ever.” “You must change, as St. Vincent of Lérins wrote in his Commonitory when he remarked that even the dogma of the Christian religion progresses, consolidating over the years, developing with time, deepening with age,” he said.

As a matter of interest, you have still never explained why you prefer the pre-Vatican II version of the Latin Mass to the regular universal Latin Mass.

a coptic schismatic false pope

In this Christianity group, do you really think it is appropriate or helpful to refer to the head of one of the oldest Christian churches, believed to have been founded by the evangelist Saint Mark, as "a coptic schismatic false pope"?

>98 brone:

There's a lot of rumour, innuendo, disparagement, scorn and, dare I say, hate in that post. Shame on you. However much you disagree with these people, it is un-Christian to refer to them in this way.

>102 brone:

As a taster, here's Pope Francis' Ascension Day homily from last year.

Also, here's a couple of his recent reflections on the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Pope gives 3 reasons to pray Rosary (Aleteia)

Be embraced by Mary's tender arms, Pope tells Monfort Missionaries (Vatican News)

Pope Francis expresses closeness to Chinese Catholics 'who suffer' (Vatican News)

"I wish to assure my thoughts and closeness to our brothers and sisters in China, and share in their joys and hopes. I offer a special thought to all those who suffer - pastors and the faithful - so that in the communion and solidarity of the universal Church they may experience consolation and encouragement." Pope Francis made this appeal for the Church in China on Wednesday as he held his General Audience in St. Peter's Square. The Pope recalled that 24 May marks the World Day of Prayer for the Church in China. In his appeal, the Holy Father invited all Christians to "raise their prayers to God, so that the Good News of Christ crucified and risen may be proclaimed in its fullness, beauty and freedom, bearing fruit for the good of the Catholic Church and all of Chinese society"...

>102 brone:

Pope Francis' "good old fashioned" Ascension Day homily can be found here.

>107 brone:

Sorry to hear that you are confused about discrimination against transgender people (you keep spelling that wrong - it's a "g" not a "tr" - and if that is your rather pathetic attempt to suggest that people struggling with their transgender nature are following a "trend" then it reveals a lot more about you than it does about them, and is distinctly uncharitable to say the least) and others who are not in a "one man/one-woman union". There's an LT thread entitled Attempted genocide of transgender people which you might find helpful in getting a better understanding. I have to confess that I have very little understanding of the issue, but at least I try to listen to those who have the knowledge and experience.

I could count on one hand how many I think I have seen in my entire life

"Think" is the operative word there. I doubt whether you or I have any idea how many transgender people we have actually seen, since so many of them have to hide their status and pretend to be what they're not. Likewise many other categories of LGBTQ+ people. Sad isn't it that we even have to label categories of human beings. All human beings are created in the image and likeness of God, are loved equally and unconditionally by God, and deserve the same level of respect for their human dignity and human rights. As we are told in John 13:34, "I give you a new commandment: love one another; you must love one another just as I have loved you", and in Leviticus 19:18 and Mark 12:31, "You must love your neighbour as yourself". I may have difficulty understanding someone, but that's no excuse for treating them in a way that I would not like to be treated myself.

a special way of loving that shouldn't be governed by the rules that apply to others

On the contrary, I think what Christian LGBTQ+ people are asking for is precisely that their way of loving should be governed by the same rules that apply to others, rather than being told they should suppress the way that God created them.

>107 brone: worked for a major public transportation system

Yes, you've said elsewhere that you were a bus driver. Good on yer, mate. I've only driven trains, not buses, although I did move one in a car park once. But by chance the other day I had occasion to look up the Archbishop of Milwaukee, Jerome E. Listeckii, and it turns out he was also a bus driver. I immediately thought of you. Nice coincidence.

>110 brone: progressive marxists who don't fully believe and profess the integrity of the Catholic faith frequently occupy strategic positions in the life of the church

Interesting. I've worked with a lot of theology professors, seminary rectors, religious superiors, parish priests and cardinals, and I don't think I've ever come across one who is a Marxist, progressive or otherwise, nor who doesn't believe and process the integrity of the Catholic faith; quite the contrary, in fact. We must move in different circles.

>102 brone:, >106 John5918:

Following his Ascension Day homily, you might also be interested in Pope Francis' Pentecost homily, On Pentecost, Pope Francis Says Holy Spirit Can Bring Harmony to "a polarized Church". Let us pray that the Holy Spirit will indeed bring our polarised Church back into unity and harmony, and that each one of us, yes, including you and me, will play our part in that movement.

>103 brone:

Pope Francis encourages Marian shrines around the world to pray for Synod on Synodality (CNA)

From the Philippines to Portugal, Marian shrines around the world will participate in a special day of prayer this Wednesday for the work of the Synod on Synodality. In his Regina Caeli address, Pope Francis announced that the day of prayer for the 16th Ordinary General Assembly of the Synod of Bishops will take place on May 31, the last day of the month dedicated to Mary. “Let us ask the Virgin Mary to accompany this important stage of the synod with her maternal protection,” the pope said. The shrines of Our Lady of Fatima in Portugal, the National Shrine of Our Lady of Czestochowa in Poland, the Knock Shrine in Ireland, the Basilica of Our Lady of the Angels in Costa Rica, Our Lady of Fourvière in France, and many other Marian shrines have confirmed their participation...

>116 brone:

For those who are interested, the Disney interview is referenced in >53 John5918: above and also in post #48 in another LT thread here.

Pope Francis publishes Apostolic Letter on 17th-century Philosopher, Blaise Pascal (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis published an apostolic letter on Monday praising the 17th-century mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal as “a tireless seeker of truth.” Pascal (1623–1662) was a French scientist who helped to lay the foundation for modern probability theory, invented one of the earliest forms of a calculator, and defined a principle of hydraulics that has since come to be known in physics as “Pascal’s law.” In the later years of his life, the Catholic mathematician, physicist, and philosopher devoted himself to Christian apologetics. “As a Christian, {Pascal} wishes to speak of Jesus Christ to those who have hastily concluded that there is no solid reason to believe in the truths of Christianity,” Pope Francis wrote. “For his part, he knows from experience that the content of divine revelation is not only not opposed to the demands of reason, but offers the amazing response that no philosophy could ever attain on its own”...

The full text of the APOSTOLIC LETTER SUBLIMITAS ET MISERIA HOMINIS (THE GRANDEUR AND MISERY OF MAN {sic}) OF THE HOLY FATHER FRANCIS ON THE FOURTH CENTENARY OF THE BIRTH OF BLAISE PASCAL, 19 June 2023, can be found here.

>122 brone: cancelled Archbishop Vigano

Not sure what you mean by "cancelled Archbishop Vigano". As far as I am aware, he resigned, as all bishops are required to do, when he reached the mandatory retirement age of 75, and is now archbishop emeritus. Far from being "cancelled", all the allegations he made are freely available on the internet (I just read them on WIkipedia). Pope Francis' reaction to his allegations was very open: "Read the statement carefully and make your own judgment. I will not say a single word about this. I believe the statement speaks for itself."

>124 brone: Cancelled St Fr Jean de Brebeuf

Again, I'm rather confused by your use of the term "cancelled". I confess I had never heard of him, as the mission field in the Americas is not my area, but he was easy to find on the internet. A great missionary, a great Jesuit, and a martyr for the faith. Deo gratias.

>127 brone: the complete lack of Christan Charity or even pastoral concern

That's an ironic statement given that one of the criticisms of the current pope by "conservative" elements within the Church is his emphasis on, er, charity and pastoral concern over and above the rigid implementation of laws and doctrine.

Benedict never cancelled the Norvus Ordo

That's very confusing. Of course Benedict didn't cancel what you refer to as the "Novus Ordo" because that is in fact the normal, ordinary form of the liturgy introduced in 1970, the form that almost all the Catholics in the world use every day. There are a handful of extraordinary rites which can be used in limited and strictly defined situations, eg the Zaire and Ambrosian rites, and yes, the Tridentine rite, but none of these are freely available without restrictions.

Pope Francis has just given the Vatican his Ratzinger (Crux)

politically and personally, Fernández is now poised to be roughly to Francis what Ratzinger once was to John Paul, albeit with some important differences... If anything, the bond between Francis and Fernández, both Argentines, runs even deeper than that which linked the Polish John Paul and the German Ratzinger...

>131 brone:

I don't think the Christianity group is the place to post conspiracy theories and anti-vaccine propaganda. There are threads in the Pro and Con group devoted to COVID, and you will probably get a better discussion there than here. But for the record, while of course no vaccine is 100% effective and there is always the possibility of side effects for a small number of individuals, there is no credible scientific evidence to support your claims and plenty which demonstrates that as a broad public health measure, vaccines have been highly effective and not dangerous. There is no real comparison with thalidomide. There is no doubt that catching COVID was far more dangerous than getting vaccinated, and that vaccinated people who did get COVID generally got a milder and less dangerous dose. Vaccines saved lives and contributed both to limiting the spread of COVID and limiting the development of new variants. As far as the claim that vaccines were made from aborted foetuses goes, it was, as you yourself admit, examined by Church authorities and refuted.

Information is not being censored. I don't know about the niche right wing media, but debate on the efficacy or otherwise of measures taken by governments is being widely covered in mainstream media and the scientific journals, and I think a consensus is developing that some of the more extreme lockdown measures were excessive. Mistakes were made, and lessons are being learned for a better response next time there is a pandemic.

More broadly, I struggle to understand the opposition to vaccines. Britons of my generation were routinely vaccinated against just about everything. Diseases such as polio and smallpox have been virtually eliminated due to vaccines. The development of a vaccine against malaria is an exciting new development which will save countless lives - I speak as one who nearly died of malaria on one occasion. I have carried a "vaccine passport" for nearly fifty years, as in the region of the world where I live and work you cannot travel from country to country without proof that you have been vaccinated against yellow fever. All of this is normal and it's sad to see public health measures being co-opted into political culture wars.

>133 brone: accustomed to thinking faith is a personal matter

It's precisely because faith is not just a personal matter that Catholic doctrine emphasises the common good, and that faith leaders including both Benedict XVI and Francis encouraged us to get vaccinated, wear masks, and observe other sensible public health measures in order to protect others, particularly those more vulnerable than ourselves - the sick, infirm and elderly, those with immune deficiencies, etc. It's not about politics or culture wars, it's about caring for others, as in "love thy neighbour".

Edited to add: I'm sorry if you feel that my post was bullying or censoring. What I did, as I have done before, was to point you towards a part of LT where the topic you raised has been discussed seriously in great detail, certainly in greater detail than it will be here. Your claims would generally be regarded as erroneous, extreme, fringe and politically ideological rather than evidence based, but on those threads the type of views you express have been considered, taken seriously, discussed and refuted, with reference to a wide range of international media, expert opinion and peer-reviewed academic literature, leading to disagreement, which I think you often wrongly equate with bullying or censorship.

Edited again to add these words from an Oxford professor of primary health care, quoted today in one of the threads I was suggesting that you peruse:

"Anti-vax movements cause a lot of harm. By ‘anti-vax’ I don’t mean anyone who raises concerns about harms or possible harms from vaccines. I mean people who *ignore scientific evidence* and perpetuate a distorted and entirely negative message about the benefit-harm balance. Vaccines against covid-19 greatly improve survival and reduce (though they do not eliminate) the risk of long-term complications like long covid and the risk of transmitting the disease to others..." {there is much evidence here – example paper linked}
https://nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02321-z 2/...

We're very happy that three of the new cardinals are from Africa. I know two of them personally - fine archbishops.

Not sure what you think has changed in the election of popes. The pope appoints cardinals, and the cardinals elect popes. That's the mechanism by which the will of the Holy Spirit is traditionally discerned by the Church, a will which can sometimes be very surprising, as for example in the election of Pope Saint John XXIII.

>129 brone:

"I will do it my way": Newly Appointed Head of Doctrine of Faith Dicastery (ACI Africa)

“Does it not seem good to you that for some time in history a Latin American who has been a parish priest of the peripheries, who grew up in a small town in the countryside, with a sensitivity close to the pain of the discarded of society, with a life story very different from that of a European or American, but who at the same time is a doctor in theology, occupies this position?” “Once again, I tell them that I will learn from history, I will respect the processes, I will dialogue, but I will do it "my way.”

Given that you often complain about so-called "elites" in the Church, I thought you would appreciate this quote from Archbishop Víctor Manuel Fernández, who came from the periphery.

And here are some comments from the USA and UK Catholic media:

Pope Francis appoints Archbishop Victor Manuel Fernandez as the new head of Vatican office for doctrine (America Magazine)

In an unexpected and highly significant move, Pope Francis has appointed the Argentine theologian and archbishop Victor Manuel “Tucho” Fernández as the new prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith... Pope Francis wrote a letter to the new prefect in which he told him in Spanish, “As prefect of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, I entrust to you a task that I consider invaluable. It has as its main purpose to safeguard the teaching that comes from the faith ‘to give reasons for our hope, but not as an enemy who critiques and condemns.’ (Evangelii Gaudium, 271)”... “The dicastery that you will preside over in other epochs came to use immoral methods. Those were times when more than promoting theological knowledge they chased after possible doctrinal errors. What I expect from you is something without doubt much different,” Francis said. The dicastery, previously a Vatican congregation, was long known as “La Suprema” among Vatican offices. It is entrusted with Catholic doctrine and discipline. Historically, particularly during the Inquisition but also in the 20th century, the congregation had a reputation for its free hand in censuring or silencing theologians, though under Francis its actions have been curtailed. The dicastery also oversees the majority of sex abuse cases referred to the Vatican, which today constitutes over 80 percent of its work... Pope Francis asks the new prefect to promote theological thinking more than controlling it, and not to occupy himself so much with the abuse question, for which there is a disciplinary sector in the dicastery, so as to concentrate on the theological area that requires development. “Given that for disciplinary questions—related especially to the abuse of minors—there was recently created {in the dicastery} a specific section with very competent professionals, I ask you that as prefect you dedicate your personal commitment in a more direct way to the principal aim of the dicastery, which is ‘to safeguard the faith,’” Francis wrote...

Francis finds his striker – Cardinal-designate Víctor Manuel Fernández (Tablet)

The appointment of Fernández has once again shown Francis’ willingness to shake things up in the Church. The new head of the doctrine office is someone in the Holy Father’s image: mission-oriented, willing to take risks, preferring dialogue over condemnation and with a tendency to do things in such a way that no one remains indifferent...

An unofficial translation of the pope's letter can be found in the America article.

>138 brone: 1/2 of the US Catholic Bishop's operating budget comes from US taxpayer's dollars

That's very interesting. I thought there was a strict separation of Church and state in the USA and that tax money could not be used to support a faith community, unlike, for example, Germany, where tax money is used to fund churches. Can you point us to a source for this information so we can read about it in more detail?

In my study of all things bergoglian I came across an interview given 9 years ago as pope to ABC news. Entitled ways to happiness by Francis. 1, Live and let live. 2, give yourself to others. 3, Be calm. 4, Sunday should be holidays. 5, create good jobs. 6, take care of nature. 7, respect other beliefs. 8, don't be negative. 9, work for peace. This I pondered on is from the leader of 1B souls apparently Bergoglio wasn't feeling to religious on this day as every politician, etc says this suff. What I did note however was the non-mention of God, (not even alluded to), "no religion too" The John Lennon anthem of post Christian Man. You know "imagine"! Bergoglio does not mention nor invoke Jesus, Mary, any Saint, Heaven, Scripture, Hope, Charity, Faith, Religion, The OT, The NT. Oh well maybe he was being ecumenical....AMDG....

>140 brone: maybe he was being ecumenical

As Father Jack Hackett would say, "That would be an ecumenical matter"!

>143 brone: full fleged Teilhardian rapture over personal committments and identity

Have you ever actually read anything by the priest, theologian, philosopher, palaeontologist and scientist Fr Pierre Teilhard de Chardin? That phrase is certainly not one I would choose to characterise his writings.

these elitists... these elites

You are pretty obsessed with elitisim. While I would not disagree with you that there have been and maybe still are some in the Vatican who may have considered themselves to be "elites", you seem unaware of the fact that it is Pope Francis, a pastor coming from the Global South and championing the concerns of people who have always been on the margins, who is challenging these elites, whether they be in the Vatican or on the right wing of the US Catholic hierarchy. Francis is anything but "silent" in his dealings with "these elites".

Rome's stunning display of ecumenism is not "collectively astonishing", it is merely putting into practice Catholic doctrine and praxis as developed in response to Unitatis redintegratio (approved in 1964 by 2,137 bishops with only 11 against) and Nostra aetate (approved in 1965 by 2,221 to 88). I don't know how old you are, but I was only ten years old when these were promulgated, so basically this has been the teaching of the Church for almost the whole of my lifetime, and certainly something I have tried to put into practice not in the "elite" halls of the Vatican but on the ground in inner city London and amongst the poorest of the poor in Sudan and South Sudan. Deo gratias!

>145 brone:

While it is true that an awareness of Marx's analysis of the class struggle was one of the influences on Latin American liberation theology, nevertheless its foundation is strictly Christian, drawing its inspiration from the Old Testament (Exodus and various prophets, for example) and the New (eg the wonderful liberation declaration in Luke 4:16-21), and from the overall teaching and example of Jesus. There are some parallels in the liberation expressed by both Marx and Jesus, as the pope may have said, but it would be interesting to read his entire quote in context. Liberation theology in Africa grew up parallel to and independently from Latin America, was far less influenced by Marx, and focused more on liberation from colonial and cultural oppression rather than the social class struggle. And yes, you're correct in saying that liberation theology methodology was later extended to other groups marginalised and oppressed not by class but because of their race, gender, sexual orientation or whatever. It's important to note that liberation theology is both a praxis theology and a grassroots theology, developed by the poor and marginalised based on their own experience of living as oppressed Christians, not by elites in ivory towers who have no experience of that life. Thanks be to God.

I don't think you'll find any Christians who hold "the upside down vision of the world in which God is seen as the oppressor and Mother Earth the revered god", a straw person if ever I saw one. God is love, not oppression. However there is no doubt that the institutional Church has at times been the oppressor - look at the Inquisition or the Spanish conquest of South America in the Catholic Church, or the alternate purges of Catholics and protestants in various European countries after the Reformation, or the support for apartheid by the Dutch Reformed Church, etc. You might also be referring obliquely to the fact that although God is not confined by a single human gender and can only be described by partial and incomplete images, some of those images have become reified and may appear oppressive to certain groups. God is not an old white man with a long white beard ruling rather oppressively like a feudal lord. There are many other images of God which can be found in the bible and in the Tradition of the Church, and these are being rediscovered and reclaimed alongside and complementary to the image of God as Father. Again, thanks be to God.

As for the manner in which the Church is dealing with the Chinese communist regime, history will judge whether it is wise or successful. It's a difficult and complex situation. Should the Church cut off all contact with the Chinese government and with that part of the Chinese Catholic Church which has found a form of accommodation with the ruling regime, and resign itself to supporting only a clandestine underground Church? Or should it seek dialogue with all parties and try to maintain open channels with the oppressive regime? "You have heard how it was said, You will love your neighbour and hate your enemy. But I say this to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you; so that you may be children of your Father in heaven, for he causes his sun to rise on the bad as well as the good, and sends down rain to fall on the upright and the wicked alike" (Matthew 5:43-45). I don't know the answer to that question, but I don't think it's either fair or helpful to snipe at those who find themselves having to make the decisions. It's a dilemma which faced earlier popes who had to decide how to deal with regimes such as German Nazism, Spanish and Italian Fascism, and Soviet and Chinese communism, and they have been both praised and criticised in different circles for the paths they chose. I thank God that I don't have to make those tough choices, and I pray for and offer my moral support to those who do.

Edited to add a couple of further thoughts.

Firstly, another forerunner and foundation of both liberation theology and Catholic social doctrine is Pope Leo XIII's 1891 encyclical Rerum novarum (literally "revolutionary change"!) on "Rights and Duties of Capital and Labour", which calls for "some opportune remedy" to "be found quickly for the misery and wretchedness pressing so unjustly on the majority of the working class" (RN3). It articulates the Catholic Church's response to the social conflict in the wake of capitalism and industrialisation which had provoked socialist and communist movements and ideologies.

Secondly it must be remembered that from the 1950s and 1960s when the seeds of liberation theology began to appear, the capitalist west was supporting the most brutal right wing regimes in Latin America. Similarly, colonialism, neocolonialism and apartheid in Africa and Asia were also being shored up by the capitalist west. Capitalism and western ideology were rightly identified with oppression, while China and the Soviet Union were supporting liberation struggles against this oppression. Hence it is hardly surprising that communism was viewed favourably in many circles during that period.

>146 John5918:

And having quoted Rerum novarum, "Rights and Duties of Capital and Labour", I think it's relevant to mention this message from Pope Francis, who is anything but "silent" on these matters.

Pope: Church must accompany workers in midst of job insecurity
(ACI Africa)

Pope Francis sends a message to a meeting of the Christian Workers’ Movement in the Spanish city of Segovia, and urges the Church to accompany people struggling on the margins of the economy... He said the Church especially needs to accompany people who are on the peripheries of the world of work. “Our commitment cannot be limited to isolated speeches or actions,” he said, “but must be a constant witness of solidarity and support to people in situations of labor and social vulnerability.” The Church’s mission with workers, he added, includes being close to people who have lost their jobs or suffer from a lack of employment opportunities. Christians cannot remain enclosed in the walls of our church buildings, he urged, inviting everyone to reach out actively to those in need and to seek “just and lasting solutions” to job insecurity...

>148 brone:

Let me comment on a few points.

He now claims the "Synod was the dream of PVl" first we have heard of that

Well, no, it's not the first we've heard of that. It was Pope Paul VI who first instituted regular synods in order to maintain the collegial (ie synodal) approach of Vatican II. Far from "subverting the papacy" it actually strengthens the papacy as the pope is moving in concert with the bishops, and now in this upcoming synod, with other non-ordained members of the Church.

we have made progress everything has been voted on and listened to" Hmmn in other words the synod has been rigged

The synod is a transparent listening process, a journeying together, so it would be very difficult to rig it. If you mean that the issues being surfaced by the vast majority of Catholics are different from those of your own small group, well, so be it. Remember that everyone had the opportunity to participate in the consultations, and those who ridiculed the process and refused to engage with it really only have themselves to blame if their issues do not rise to the surface. But your concerns about liturgy have been raised in the north American group, albeit not in most of the rest of the world where it is not an issue, and they will be discussed.

"Vatll has not yet begun to be realized"

Many would agree with this statement. I recall as far back as 1985 a book entitled Whatever Happened to Vatican II bemoaned the slow progress in implementing the reforms, and I don't think it has sped up much since then. Councils are not everyday events - there have only been 21. After the Council of Trent it took 300 years until Vatican I, and then a further hundred until Vatican II. Sixty years is a very short time in the lifespan of the Church, and reformation takes time to be implemented and to bear fruit. But as mentioned above, the synodal process set up by Pope Paul VI in part ameliorates the need for a full council by allowing the bishops to meet in synod more regularly.

the Old Catholics who claim to hold the depository of the Tue Faith

The key word here is "claim". The depository of the True Faith is held by the Church, led by the Pope and the bishops. And actually "Old Catholics" are a schismatic group who separated from the Catholic Church after Vatican I. I'm a little surprised that you identify with them as you have constantly denied having schismatic tendencies.

Bergoglio's determination to erradicate the unmentionable vice of the Greeks for that is what he is implying

I have no idea at all what you are talking about here. Could you clarify?

Sounds like fascism to me

I would have thought that humanism and fascism are pretty diametrically opposed.

the globalist church

What do you understand by the term "globalist church"? As I understand it, the Catholic Church is indeed "globalist". The word catholic means universal.

I used to think the Vatican was a neutral state

The Vatican is indeed a politically neutral state, but one often tries to find venues in which one party does not have the home ground advantage, or at least to rotate between different venues.

smelling sheep

The bishops and priests who "smell like their sheep" are almost certainly the ones who welcome Pope Francis' pastoral and merciful approach, as they are pastors who live amongst their people and are in touch with the everyday experience of the poor, the oppressed, the marginalised, the vulnerable.

>150 brone: I pointed out to them they should mention the 105 million people murdered by states in the last hundred years of course I was riddiculed with "Thats sad but just an anecdote"

I read that thread. You were not "ridiculed". You were politely asked to stay on the topic of the thread: "Sad anecdote but please keep it to a relevant thread". It did not say "just an anecdote", but I presume it was suggesting that a post going into detail about the murder of Maximilian Kolbe is anecdotal to the topic. This is not the first time you have been politely advised to post in relevant threads, and it cannot be construed as making you a victim of ridicule.

Interestingly in that post you refer to 205 million dead, whereas here you mention only 105 million. Why the reduction? It's actually very difficult to put a figure on genocide, depending on whether one confines oneself to the UN definition or whether one includes other mass killings which may fall outside that strict definition, but a quick search on Google gives figures of between about 60 and 150 million in the 20th century. But regardless of the statistics, even one such death is an unacceptable tragedy.

Also interestingly, in that post you say they were murdered "because each and every one of them were an unrepeatable center of dignity and freedom, made in the image of Christ and made for eternity, not the whim of governor, bureaucrat, commandant or ideolgue", and yet you appear to be unsympathetic towards transgender people who are being targeted by "the whim of governors, bureaucrats, commandants and ideologues" precisely because of their "unrepeatable centre of dignity and freedom, made in the image of Christ and made for eternity". Isn't that rather inconsistent of you?

>152 brone: coprophilia

I presume you're referring to this story, which I found on NPR: Pope Francis Warns Media Against Infatuation With Scandal, Citing 'Coprophilia'? Reminds me of a story that one of our retired South Sudanese bishops, who was renowned for using African stories about animals and plants to make his point, often told. He tells of the bees which flit from plant to plant picking up and depositing lifegiving pollen and honey, and also of the flies which flit around picking up and depositing death-dealing shit and disease. He asks his audience to reflect on whether they are like the bees, or the flies. I suspect Pope Francis is making a similar point. Unlike the interpretation of his message which springs from your fertile imagination, he is warning against the harm of spreading gossip, innuendo, rumour, scandal, disinformation, slander, sullying people, and he is imploring people to communicate positively; indeed if you read the whole article, much of that is stated explicitly.

Funnily enough I was thinking of posting in this thread earlier today, refuting the "Silent Francis" title with yet another issue on which he is not silent, that of the encroachment of excessive worldliness into religious life, and of compromising core values with the allure of worldly ideologies. He speaks of people who "instead of living by doctrine, by the true doctrine that always develops and bears fruit, they live by ideologies. But when you abandon doctrine in life to replace it with an ideology, you have lost, you have lost as in war". There are articles on it here and here, in case anyone is interested.

The Pope is never silent when it comes to "climate change". The latest Exhortation "Laudate Deum", I wonder why he uses the dead language so discouraged for the rest of us. This missive is but propaganda for the Global Communist Totalitarianism of the great reset. Masked in Jesuitical earnestness to deal with the "undeniable reality" and "Global Crisis" of climate change many of these facts are however disputed by reputable scientists that the pope presents as self-evident and uncontestable. It reads like a blog post on climate change on the pro-con posts on LT. It is notoriously ideological and clearly a debatable topic. It is written to seduce faithful catholics into accepting whatever the leftist authorities require now and, in the future, you know the drill, lockdowns, slave masks, carbon rationing, smart this and that, ect, implemented by the " global authorities" to prevent the coming "global catastrophe". This document brings to mind the biblical verse "you shall know them by their fruits". " It is no longer possible to doubt the human "anthropic" origin of climate change". The pope's exhortation is perfectably suitable for the expression of debatable opinions it is not infallible....AMDG....

>154 brone: wonder why he uses the dead language so discouraged for the rest of us

I suspect you're aware that this is a misrepresentation, but some readers may not be, so let me clarify. Latin is still an official language in the Catholic Church and many documents are promulgated in Latin. The use of Latin in the liturgy is encouraged, as taught clearly in the most authoritative Church document on the liturgy, Sacrosanctum concilium, issued in December 1963. The normative text of the Catholic mass is in Latin, and all the vernacular versions are translated from it. Mass can be celebrated in Latin anywhere, any time, without any restrictions. What is restricted is the use of an older form of the mass, variously known as the Tridentine Rite or the antecedent rite, or incorrectly by its proponents as "The Latin Mass", which was superseded in 1970 by the current form of the mass. The antecedent rite is not totally banned, but it is not approved for use in normal parish settings, where it is naturally expected that the universal rite of the Church should be used, whether in Latin or in the local language.

many of these facts are however disputed by reputable scientists

No, they are not. The human impact on the current climate crisis is accepted by virtually all "reputable scientists". Disagreements amongst scientists focus on details, not on the overall picture.

It is notoriously ideological and clearly a debatable topic

Well yes, it is "ideological" and "debatable" only because right wing culture warriors choose to dispute scientific evidence on political and ideological rather than scientific grounds.

For what it's worth, Pope Francis' two recent documents on the climate crisis, Laudato si' and Laudate deum, have been widely welcomed in the Global South, which is suffering disproportionately from the climate crisis caused largely by the Global North (plus China). Most of the ideologues who deny the climate crisis are, unsurprisingly, in the Global North, and particularly the USA. There are no climate change deniers in Africa!

The last week of the synod the pope became animated and raged about the scandal of clericalism even speaking extemporaneously in his denunciation. (He who made his MC a non-bishop an archbishop the guy's only flock being the altar servers) In the heady days of this pope he decreed there be no more title of monsignor, now the priest standing next to him pointing out the page to be on is an archbishop. Wednsday in the last weekof the synod news broke that the friend of the pope the most famous ex Jesuit in the world Marko Rupnik soft landed in Slovenia with full priestly rights and privileges. The stomach-churning allegations of credible sacrilegious sexual abuse of religious women was the reason for his expulsion. Thus all Wednesday this had to be discussed by his staunch courtiers as well as his critics. The stench of this case clings to the Jesuits especially in the papal court, the pope's own reputation as a friend of this creep was on the line. That afternoon the pope launches a diatribe about the "scourge" of "clericalism" which defiles the people of God. He then talks about scandal not Rupnik but the scandal of priests going into tailor shops in Rome getting cassocks altered hmnn. The snickering must have been deafening. Anyway, on Thursday his press office lets out the blurb that Marko will be prosecuted this fiasco fooled know one....AMDG....

>156 brone:

I would suggest that far from being "the most famous ex Jesuit in the world", hardly anyone has ever heard of him. I certainly hadn't, until the sexual abuse allegations against him surfaced recently. If his name is well known, perhaps it's in part because people like your good self keep publicising it as part of your ongoing campaign against Pope Francis?

As for clericalism, it is indeed a deep seated problem within the Church. I recall a well known US newspaper reporter who came to South Sudan around fifteen years ago, and deep in the bush he met a missionary priest whom he praised for his dedicated service to the poor, but described as "the worst dressed priest" he'd ever met. I can name a few other priests who might vie for that distinction, but give me them any day over the young priests poncing around in fancy clobber instead of doing proper pastoral work. I'm travelling at the moment so I can't supply the link immediately, but I'll post it later if anybody is interested. The title is striking, particularly as he is not known as a religious apologist: "Who can mock this Church?"

The non famous Jesuit Artist whose mosaics and paintings are hanging in some of the most famous churches and basilicas around the world. His art adorns Vatican publications, it is the logo for the 10th meeting of World Family Day. It is promenent in the web site for the synod. I bring up his sacreligious abuse and I am accused of publicising "an ongoing campaign against Pope Francis" This guy was the pope's friend and I'm gaslit for mentioning it and the coverup surrounding the whole sordid mess. Should I mention another sticky little case involving a young intern from Canada who wrote to the pope and asked him to do something about Cardinal Quellet's habit of fondling, hugging, and kissing her three different times against her will. As Rupnik aint so famous I guess the Prefect of the Dicastery of Bishops (powerful job) Ouellet is not well known either. However, the pope knew firsthand of this alleged abuse, back in 2019 the pope wrote Vos Estis dealing with the ongoing problem of sexual abuse by clerics and bishops. So when the news broke about Marc Ouellet the pope immediatly appoints a Jesuit "investigator" with no experience or backround in this area. He does however have experience running a "house of formation" (whaterver that is) . Well guess who sits on the board, Yup the prefect of bishops. Now this does not pass the smell test. Apparently the investgator is to busy at the formation house to get in touch with the alleged abused girl. The only way we know of this case is because it is now in civil court in Canada. Article 14 of the pope's Vos Estis states that these types of investigations must be completed in ninety days, the cooperative witness has'nt been contacted in a year in a half. Some I guess would call this a papal coverup it smacks of indefference if you ask me. Anyway, as far as the pope is concerned his high and mighty prefect is clear of any wrongdoing per the pope himself. We will see what the Canadian court has to say about this good ole boy verdict. This at least is not what we expect from the pope's own words in Vos Estis....JMJ....

Here's what Jesuits thought in Francis's youth. America magazine a 1967 editorial states, " contraception is essential for sound family life. Yes essential. Without reliance on contraception in certain situations it would not be possible for most couples to achive the values proclaimed by the Church as part of the marital state. The Church will have to change her doctrine either on contraception or on marriage. It is no longer possible for the Church to maintain them both". Fast forward 56 years and they are still trying to alter the state of marriage. Less than a year earlier PPVl said "the traditional teaching of the Church (against birth control) cannot be considered as not binding as if the Magisterium of the Church were in a state of doubt" You see what happens to bishops and priests when the disagree with the Jesuit Pope's non magisterial topics. For 56 years the Jesuits were and now are never explicit about anything, ambiguity is their stick. Their mode is insinuation as in 1967 the goal to destroy orthodoxy is by holding it up as absurd....JMJ....

>159 brone: Here's what Jesuits thought

Perhaps more accurate to say, "Here's what the editor of one Jesuit magazine thought"?

the goal to destroy orthodoxy is by holding it up as absurd

The goal is for theologians to obtain a deeper understanding of our faith, a process which often is nuanced and ambiguous but certainly not absurd. You'll recall that the commission appointed by Pope Paul VI to examine the issue believed that contraception might be permissible in some circumstances ("in certain situations", as your quote says). The pope disagreed, as is his prerogative, and the Church officially followed his teaching, just as we now follow the teaching of Pope Francis. However in fact it would seem that a large number (the majority?) of Catholics in the Global North do not follow Church teaching on this particular issue (sensus fidei in action?) In the Gobal South, where contraception is less readily available, they often have no option.

>161 brone:

No, once again you conflate disagreement with the pope on particular issues with openly and publicly undermining the authority and legitimacy of the papacy and the teaching authority of the Church on an unprecedented level. There has been disagreement with successive popes on many issues (eg with Pope Paul VI on contraception - see above) but never in living memory has it descended to the sort of personal attacks and questioning of the legitimacy of a pope or a Council as with the current pope.

The benefits removed from Cardinal Burke are not a pension, which as you say is indeed a right not a privilege. "Cardinals leading departments in the Roman Curia, the church’s central administration, are given grace-and-favor apartments and paid up to $5,900 a month. But Burke no longer has a job in the church’s central administration, and the decision about his apartment comes as the Vatican seeks to tackle a financial shortfall by ensuring it is getting market rates on its properties" (link). In other words, the house and the salary go with the job, and as with any such benefits, when the job finishes, so do the benefits. If a load of cardinals who no longer have jobs in the Vatican were still being paid and housed, no doubt there would be cries of corruption. The good cardinal's pension is a completely different matter.

>163 brone:

For as long as I can remember there have been local discussions about where a bishop should live after he has retired. If he quietly becomes chaplain to a convent or some other low profile ministry, as most do, there is no problem with him remaining in the diocese. However if a long-serving, well-known and often well-loved bishop chooses to maintain a high public profile and begins to overshadow and even undermine his successor, sometimes causing conflict and division within the diocese, there are many who feel that it is better for him to move away and leave the new younger bishop to get on with the job unhindered by the baggage of his predecessor. I have known both types of retired bishop. I don't know all the details of Bishop José Luís Azcona Hermoso, and I suspect neither do you, but this should be viewed in the context I have just described rather than attacking Pope Francis with insulting references to "brown shirts" which I really think have no place in a Christian nor indeed any rational conversation. Worth remembering also that he was not a diocesan priest but a member of a religious order (Order of Augustinian Recollects), and they often have their own retirement arrangements and protocols.

>165 brone:

Coadjutor bishops are not "watchdogs" - the term simply means a bishop who has the right of succession once the current bishop dies or retires. There is no restriction on saying the Latin Mass - the only restrictions are on using the superseded antecedent rite rather than the universal rite. Many priests from Africa and elsewhere in the world are now re-evangelising Europe (and north America). The general decline of Christianity in the Global North is probably one of the reasons the College of Cardinals chose a pope from the Global South, where Christianity is vibrant and where most of the worlds Christians live. Whether or not a secular president has called the pope something or other is really not very relevant.

>167 brone:

Thanks. It's good to see these courageous people standing up against oppression. God be with them.

In Hong Kong in hopeless isolation Jimmy Lai, Catholic dissident and advocate for freedom sits with irredeemable commitment as the last noble remnant of Chinese Catholics faithful to Rome. In a Rome fat with too much living it is to difficult for these fat cats to see the wisdom of Chinese defiance-so hopeless, so doomed to failure. The only mistake Lai, Zen, Alvarez made is to expect help from Rome. The Pope has entered into secret agreements with their persecutors and is silenced by communist thugs. So Jimmy Lai and countless others return to the "tranquility of their dungeons" in the hope that we faithful Catholics will forget and return to more worldly issues such as climate change and blessings for this, that and the other. Where is our nobility of soul if our intentions in Communist countries is appeasment Jimmy Lai and Cardinal Zen were taken away to waste in dungeons, both could have easily escaped to the fat cat west, instead they gave themselves up magnanamously. China with its handful of underground priests and laity has the historic role of defending the Church of Rome whom its own leaders criticize and will not defend. Chinese persecution constitutes one of the crossroads of history where a single battle can decide the course of events for centuries to come. The light of faith is indeed flickering low on this Christmas eve behind bars in China and Nicaragua, Somehow, I feel Jimmy Lai and Bishop Alvarez are holding the tiny candle of hope in the incarnation....Merry Christmas....

>169 brone:

Thanks again for reminding us of courageous people in various parts of the world who stand up against oppression. As you say, it's a choice they make, and it's one way of many ways in which people resist oppression. I wouldn't say that the Vatican "is silenced by communist thugs", but it has chosen a different, non-confrontational, non-adversarial method to try to address the issue while trying to avoid demonising the oppressor. In the literature on nonviolent resistance around 200 different methods of resistance have been listed. The likes of Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela and Jesus recognised that even the oppressor is a human being, a victim in their own way, who needs to be loved and liberated, converted one might say (in the sense of metanoia, change, rather than conforming to someone else's political ideology) rather than dehumanised. And while the Church stands up against oppression, it is not part of the zero sum contest between capitalist and communist political ideologies.

I wish you and the world a happy and holy Christmas and a peaceful and blessed new year. Once again we are praying for peace, justice and democracy in Sudan, South Sudan and so many other countries, for the day when the voice of the ordinary people will be heard above the braying of the military, economic and political elites, and the ideologues of whatever stripe. When will the world learn that violence is never the solution to political and socio-economic problems, and that violence merely begets more violence, a vicious spiral that needs to be broken, whether in Sudan, South Sudan, Ukraine, Russia, Palestine, Israel or wherever?

>171 brone:

I would have liked to say that I don't think anyone in the world is willing to "allow" people to murder, rape, kidnap and dismember ciitizens, but sadly I seem to have been proved wrong, as it seems that at the moment the UK and the USA are willing to allow the Israeli government to do so. Nobody denies the right of the Israeli government to protect its citizens from Hamas, but the slaughter of more than twenty thousand civilian men, women and children, their forcible displacement from their homes, and the destruction of the infrastructure that they need to survive, is genocide, not legitimate self-defence.

I'm not a pacifist so I have no idea what they would say, neither do I know for sure what Jesus would have done if he had come across the traveller being assaulted. I expect he would have tried to de-escalate the situation, acting proportionately, maybe interposing himself between the attackers and the victim, taking the blows upon himself. On the occasion in the gospels when Jesus himself was the victim of an assault in the Garden of Gethsemane, Peter drew his sword to defend him, surely a case where the use of violence might be considered justified in order to prevent Jesus' unjust detention, torture and death. But Jesus' response to Peter was, "Put away your sword". Better to suffer injustice and violence than to inflict violence. But whatever Jesus would have done, I am pretty certain that he would not have killed the attackers, killed their children and womenfolk, killed twenty thousand people who happened to be of the same race or nationality and who happened to get in the way of his disproportionate violence, bulldozed their homes and thrown them out into the wilderness in winter without the means of survival, bombed them from the air, destroyed their health facilities and cut off humanitarian aid.

175 Brone:I like your posts in a universe that seems to be dominated by another but can I show my ignorance by asking what 'JML' signifies?

>173 brone:

Well, we may disagree here, but I would think that the role of a pastor and peacebuilder would be to pray for the victims and perpetrators of violence, and to pray for peace, not to make political statements.

The recent massacre of 200 Christians in Nigeria has received plenty of attention in the Catholic media, with a grest deal of comment from Nigerian Christians who understand the situation and have to live with the consequences. Some examples include Nearly 200 Killed in Christmas Weekend Attacks on Nigerian Christians, Leaders Urge Action; In 2024, Let’s be “positive change” Agents: Nigerian Catholic Bishop in New Year Message; Catholic Biblical Scholars in Nigeria Call for “personal responsibility” in Peacebuilding; and Catholic Priests and Bishops in Nigeria Told to “rise above tribal sentiments”, all from ACI Africa. Worth noting, perhaps, that the bishops speak of poor governance and are calling for action from the president and from individual NIgerians, not the pope, and in the last one the bishop speaks of tribal and cultural differences which form part of the conflict dynamics in Nigeria. It is not as simplistic as "Fulani, Jihadist, Islamic, Muslim terror".

As you probably know, Pope Francis spoke of persecuted Christians on the feast of the first Christian martyr, St Stephen (link):

Christians have been persecuted by adversarial groups since the time of the apostles, and in varied parts of the world Christians continue to face existential threats from governments and other entities. On the Dec. 26 feast of St. Stephen, the first Christian martyr who died around 34 A.D., Pope Francis said in his Angelus that “2,000 years later, unfortunately, we see that the persecution continues.” “There are still those, and there are many of them, who suffer and die to bear witness to Jesus, just as there are those who are penalized at various levels for the fact of acting in a way consistent with the Gospel, and those who strive every day to be faithful, without ado, to their good duties, while the world jeers and preaches otherwise,” the pontiff said. Religious freedom is shrinking globally, according to multiple reports. A report from the watchdog group Open Doors found that the persecution of Christians is at its highest point in three decades. It found that some of the worst locations for Christians were North Korea, Somalia, Yemen, Eritrea, Libya, Nigeria, Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, and India...

>174 PossMan:

Sorry if you feel that it is dominated by one voice; I rather think it is dominated by two voices! Hopefully others will join in to make it a more balanced conversation. These are issues I feel strongly about, and when I see something I disagree with, I will respond, hopefully always trying to be charitable and courteous - my apologies for the times I fall short - mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa*. Our opinions and worldviews are generally formed by our experience, our context and the information available to us, and I try to share where I am coming from. I will challenge information which I believe to be dubious by citing credible counter-information.

* A line from the Catholic Confiteor prayer of confession said at the beginning of mass, translated as "through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault" - hopefully the use of Latin is not out of place in this thread which is about a Catholic pope.

>174 PossMan: "asking what 'JML' signifies?"

I guess you mean JMJ, but I might be mistaken? JMJ = dedicated to Jesus, Mary and Joseph.
https://aleteia.org/2020/07/10/what-does-jmj-stand-for/

>177 bnielsen:: Thanks.

>179 brone: we will continue to say our Rosaries

Indeed. Along with the Holy Father: Pope Francis: Entrust 2024 to the Mother of God; Pope Francis Reflects on Mary’s Motherhood, Prays for Nicaragua During New Year’s Angelus.

Note that Pope Francis' prayer intentions for 2024 include new martyrs and those fleeing their own countries, which I think covers a wider spectrum of the different causes of violence and suffering than you mention, and he also prays particularly for "the Church in Nicaragua, which has been at the center of an escalating persecution launched by the country’s president".

I would still be interested to hear why you, as a faithful practising Catholic, constantly choose to refer to Pope Francis by his surname in a rather dismissive fashion, instead of using any of his titles, or even just his chosen papal name Francis, as most Catholics and even other faiths and the secular world do.

disrupting, airports, subways

Just a personal opinion, but I would say that the biggest disruption to airports and other public institutions is heavy handed security measures. But if you are referring to current protests about Israeli actions in Palestine, it is not Muslims who are demonstrating, it is Palestinians, made up of both Christians and Muslims, along with people of all faiths and none who oppose the current genocide, including many peace-loving Israelis.

>181 brone:

I find it interesting that you continue to present your minority view as "we Americans", and you pour scorn on all those other US Catholics who are in tune with the pope and the Church, to say nothing ofthe rest of the world.

The American Church is the Liveliest in the western world

That's an interesting unsupported claim which might well benefit from some scrutiny. But perhaps the key phrase is "the western world". The western world is no longer the centre of Christianity in general nor of Catholicism in particular. The vast majority of Christians, and the most vibrant "flourishing" churches, are in the Global South.

On the subject of "Bergoglio":

Italian priest struck off for calling Francis an ‘anti-pope usurper’ (Guardian)

In a video of the homily, which lasted more than 20 minutes and was shared online, Guidetti refers to the Argentinian pontiff – whose former name is Jorge Mario Bergoglio – as simply “Mr Bergoglio”, before describing him as “a Jesuit Freemason linked to world powers, an anti-pope usurper”... Simone Giusti, the bishop of Livorno, issued a decree saying Guidetti had “publicly committed an act of a schismatic nature” and ordered him to be “removed from the office of parish priest of St Ranieri in Guasticce”... Guidetti, who was known locally to have made previous anti-Francis remarks, said he was proud to have been excommunicated, adding it was “a mark of pride to be out of this church, which is a tyranny”... {Francis'} papacy has been embraced by progressives, but he has endured battles with a deeply conservative faction of the church, who are irked by the attention he has given to issues such as social inequality, the climate crisis and refugees... Some of the pontiff’s detractors believe his appointment was invalid...

Any of that sound familiar? Non-Catholic readers may not be aware that there has been plenty of room for disagreement with popes on many issues in modern times, both "progressive" popes like John XXIII and John Paul I, "conservatives" like John Paul II and Benedict XVI, and those in between like Paul VI, but rarely has it descended to the level of vitriolic abuse and disparagement seen amongst Francis' detractors. Worth noting that ultra-conservatives also chose to question the validity of the election of John XXIII in 1958, sparking a small schismatic movement called Sedevacantism (from the Latin sede vacante, vacant chair, a term commonly used during the interregnum between the death or retirement of a bishop and the appointment of his successor). There was also another small schismatic movement called the Society of St Pius X, harking back to an early 19th century pope. It seems self-styled "conservative" Catholics are far more intolerant of popes they don't like than the rest of the Catholic family is.

>184 brone:

Fine, but perhaps then instead of referring constantly to the all-encompassing "we Americans" it would be better to use the more accurate words "we fundamentalist conservative Americans"? There are a huge number of American Christians who do not follow the theology nor ideology promoted by yourself and your fellow travellers, and while you might be a "large segment" (who knows how large or small?) you are not some overwhelming majority that entitles you to include "all Americans" in your identity group. You frequently name, albeit disparagingly, a number of the more prominent "we Americans" who disagree with your view of Church, nation and world, including cardinals such as Cupich, Tobin, McElroy and Gregory, but it would be easy to name many other US bishops, priests, religious brothers and sisters, missionaries, and laity who give the lie to your claims.

soft on socialism, facism, communism

I don't see many evangelical fundamentalist conservative (your words) Christians in the USA who are "soft on fascism", given that a large segment of them appear to support extreme right wing ideologies and politicians which can certainly be described as fascism.

>186 brone:

Difficult to know how to respond to a rant which uncharitably labels and disparages whole groups of people. Not really sure why anybody on a Christian discussion platform should take seriously a post describing the leader of a major Christian Church as "His grouchiness" and leading Church figures as "grinches", but as usual I will nevertheless try to take you seriously and give a rational and civil response. Some obvious rejoinders:

Firstly, I'm not sure why you think Pope Francis is not responding to dubia (questions for clarification from bishops) given that a very clear response has just beeen issued to questions raised by German and some other bishops, which reaffirms traditional Church teaching on the questions raised. When you say "reading between the lines", don't you actually mean projecting your own interpretation onto it? Incidentally, I haven't heard any US or European bishops supporting ploygamy as you claim.

Secondly, you seem to like the term "cancel", which you use whenever anybody issues a considered opinion disagreeing with yours. "Like all leftist regimes they eliminate their opposition" is irrelevant since the Church is not leftist nor a regime (indeed Pope Francis has repeatedly cautioned against bringing left/right political ideology and culture wars into the Church), but if you look around the world it is authoritarian regimes and institutions of both left and right which suppress political dissent. The Church used to suppress dissenting opinions, most recently perhaps when Pope John Paul II declared that the issue of women priests could no longer be discussed (I know at least one respected Catholic scripture scholar who resigned on that issue, saying "I don't mind them telling me that we can't have women priests, but it is unacceptable for them to tell me that we cannot even discuss the issue!"). A prominent Catholic theologian whom you apparently love to hate, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, was suppressed ("cancelled") for many decades, and it is only recently that his work is being rediscovered, with both its strengths and weaknesses. In my lifetime I can think of many prominent Catholics who were "cancelled" (Hans Kung, Edward Schillebeeckx, Yves Congar and Charles Curran are some who spring to mind immediately) but in today's more open Church are now recognised as the great theologians that they were.

And finally, sadly the Catholic Church in the USA and UK is not "multiplying like bunnies", it is in fact in slow decline as far as numbers go, as discussed (with statistics) in another thread in this group. Where the Church is multiplying is in the Global South.

>188 brone:

Not sure who "you guys" is, but it might be worth responding to some of the points I make rather than resorting to argumentum ad hominem. Disagreeing with you, and giving credible facts and reasons for doing so is not "gaslighting". And appealing to a "sense of humour" is a well worn tactic for disparaging, defaming, denigrating, dismissing and even dehumanising individuals and groups of people. "Oh, but I was only joking". On a Christian conversation board can we not treat everybody with love and respect, even those we disagree with?

Return to God’s Word Rather than Social Media’s "violence of words": Pope Francis (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis has called Catholics to spend more time with the saving power of God’s word as society and social media amplify “the violence of words.” Speaking of the “immense power” that the word of God can unleash in people’s lives, Pope Francis encouraged us to always “have the Gospel within easy reach.” “While society and social media accentuate the violence of words, let us draw closer to and cultivate the quiet word of God that brings salvation, that is gentle, that does not make a loud noise and that enters into our hearts,” Pope Francis said on Jan. 21. The word of God, he said, “does not leave us self-absorbed but expands hearts, changes courses, overturns habits, opens up new scenarios, and discloses unthought-of horizons”... “The word of God unleashes the power of the Holy Spirit,” Pope Francis said. “Christ’s word not only liberates us from the burdens we bear, past and present; it also makes us mature in truth and in charity. It enlivens the heart, challenges it, purifies it from hypocrisy, and fills it with hope,” he said.

>192 brone:

Thanks for that quote from John Henry Newman, although I do wish you would cite your sources so we can all easily read your interesting quotes in full and in context. But yes, he is right. It seems there are many "enemies" within the Church at the moment, people who ridicule the papacy and the teaching authority of the Church, and who resort to "the violence of words", spreading dissent, division and disinformation on social media, as the pope has intimated in the article posted in >191 John5918:. There is of course no accountability nor due process in social media attacks.

Pope Francis Thanks Vatican Journalists for Reporting on Scandals in the Church (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis thanked the Vatican press corps on Monday for reporting on scandals in the Church with “delicacy” in a media environment that he said often “distorts religious news.” Journalists accredited to the Holy See Press Office met the pope in a private audience at the Vatican’s Apostolic Palace on Jan. 22. “Being a journalist is a vocation, somewhat like that of a doctor, who chooses to love humanity by curing illnesses. In a certain sense, the journalist does likewise, choosing to touch personally the wounds of society and the world,” Pope Francis said. The pope encouraged journalists covering the Vatican to ground their work “on the solid rock of responsibility for the truth, not the fragile sands of gossip and ideological interpretations”...

>195 brone: the pushback from all over the world, entire bishop's conferences in Africa

The bishops of Africa sought clarification from the Holy Father about a particular issue which is very culturally sensitive in Africa. They did not abuse, denigrate, ridicule nor "resist" him, nor engage in a public war of words, but emphasised respect, unity and understanding. They sought dialogue, and came up with a statement which was mutually crafted and agreed by the president of the Symposium of Episcopal Conferences of Africa and Madagascar (SECAM), the head of the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, and the Holy Father himself. See SECAM President Explains How Rejection of Fiducia Supplicans in Africa was Handled for an account by Cardinal Fridolin Ambongo Besengu, the president of SECAM. “The Episcopal Conferences of all Africa, which have strongly reaffirmed their communion with Pope Francis, believe that the extra-liturgical blessings proposed in the declaration Fiducia Supplicans cannot be carried out in Africa without exposing themselves to scandals.”

We are not the Church of...

There is one universal Church, not the Church of "Burke, Strickland, Vigano, Schneider and a few others", nor "the Church of Poland, Hungary, Mali, Cameroon and many in the US", to use your words - nor "youse guys", as you also often say. As we say in the Nicene Creed, "I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church". I certainly believe in one Church, value all attempts to maintain that unity and communion, and resist attempts to divide us and polarise the Church. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 1:11-13, "it is clear that there are serious differences among you. What I mean is this: every one of you is declaring, 'I belong to Paul,' or 'I belong to Apollos,' or 'I belong to Cephas,' or 'I belong to Christ.' Has Christ been split up? Was it Paul that was crucified for you, or was it in Paul's name that you were baptised?" As Catholics we are part of that one Catholic Church, and like Paul, must resist attempts to split it up. And incidentally, as Christians of all denominations we are also called upon to work for unity, which is why ecumenism is so important, but that's a topic for another thread.

Edited to add: And here's another report on the pope's recent words, this one published by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, which represents "many in the US": Amid 'barrage' of words online and off, listen to God's word, pope says. Returning to one of his favourite themes, namely evangelisation, or spreading the Gospel, "After Mass, Pope Francis appeared at the window of his study overlooking St. Peter's Square to pray the Angelus with visitors and told them that to proclaim the Gospel 'is not wasted time... Brothers, sisters, every one of us has received the call to evangelize, and to do so in the state of life in which we find ourselves, with the abilities, friends, work, age and neighborhood we have,' he said."

>197 brone: Marxists catholics of today

Are there any Marxist Catholics? I'd be interested to meet them.

interest in blessing sin

I'm not aware of anyone who is interested in blessing sin. We bless human beings who have reached out, however imperfectly, to ask for God's grace, and we do so without quizzing them as to their moral status. We are all flawed and sinful human beings, in need of God's grace.

a huge majority of my co-religionists identify with the marginalized, in other words those who are not marginalized themselves seek to identify with those that are, imitation is empathy in its highest form for them in the meantime hypocritically living high off the hog berating those of us who are not marginalized and are happy to be so.

Surely the point of identifying with the marginalised, disadvantaged and vulnerable is to reduce their marginalisation, disadvantage and vulnerability, not to imitate or even empathise with it? It is also in keeping with the example set by Jesus, who identified with the marginalised of his time - people with leprosy and other diseases, women, children, prostitutes, aliens (eg Samaritans), enemies, corrupt government officials, widows, etc.

the acceptance of the torn jeans, tattoos, graffitti, as art. Oh yes I admit that there is skill in these disfigurements, but skill is not art. Not long ago these "arts" were regulated to prisoners, gangs, and drunken sailors

What you're basically saying is that there were cultural, societal and class prejudices against practices which were accepted by other cultures and social classes. You come from the culture that disapproves, so you are not happy. But I would venture to suggest that it has nothing to do with Pope Francis (silent or otherwise) or religion; in Britain we would probably call it class prejudice. Incidentally not all tattooed sailors are drunken. Graffiti can be artistic, as witnessed by the likes of Banksy. It can brighten up neglected and dilapidated neighbourhoods, and be used to spread inspirational and educational messages. It can also be pure vandalism. I particulary object to people painting graffiti onto trains. As for torn jeans, well, who will ever understand fashion? Stranger things have been accepted by western cultures as fashionable, artistic and "normal".

>199 brone:

Well, funnily enough I don't really agree with any of that. Of course Marxism has been in dialogue with the faith, just like ancient Roman and Greek civilisations, mediaeval kingdoms and empires, feudalism, the Enlightenment, the industrial revolution, patriarchy, militarism, capitalism and many other political, social and cultural dispensations over the last two millennia which have come into contact with Christianity, and all have had some influence on Christianity as we now know it, and often vice versa. But Christianity is not a political or socio-economic ideology, so neither capitalism nor its twin Marxism can be identified with Christianity, which makes it difficult for me to see the relevance of much of that post.

>203 brone:

The Vatican has clarified that the pope's reference to a "white flag" referred to the need for negotiations, not surrender (link). Virtually all armed conflicts end through negotiations rather than military "victory", and it's simply a question of how many more people need to die before the protagonists realise this. You're right of course that the pope's comments won't sit well with warmongers, whether they be the Ukrainian and Russian governments, the warring parties in Gaza, or the capitalists of the military industrial complex in the USA, but the prophetic voice of the Church has never been popular with these type of people. It is not a "deficiency" to speak unpopular truths.

I would disagree with you that "nobody" listens to the pope. I would suggest that faithful Catholics throughout the world, particularly the poor and marginalised and those suffering from violence, are gratefully listening to him, as are many other Christians and people of good will. As an example, millions of Christians in South Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo joyfully welcomed him last year when he travelled with two other global Christian leaders, listened to him, and are still drawing courage and inspiration from his words.

>205 brone:

Thanks for remembering some of the martyrs. Another US martyr was Fr John Kaiser, murdered in Kenya in August 2000 for speaking out against injustices. In the words of the Archdiocese of Nairobi, "As a missionary, he served the poor, advocated for justice for the oppressed and respect for human rights, especially in 1993, at the height of ethnic violence and land clashes in Kenya." He was one of my missionary colleagues. RIP.

Pope Francis Prays for Victims of Moscow Terrorist Attack at Palm Sunday Mass (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis offered prayers for the victims of the “vile terrorist attack” in Moscow at the end of his Palm Sunday Mass at the Vatican. At least 130 people died after gunmen opened fire at a musical performance in a Moscow concert hall on Friday night, according to the Associated Press. The Islamic State group’s Afghanistan affiliate claimed responsibility for the attack in Russia — a claim that U.S. intelligence officials have confirmed. Speaking in St. Peter’s Square on March 24, Pope Francis prayed for the families of the victims as well as for the conversion of the perpetrators of the attack. “May the Lord receive them in his peace and comfort their families. May he convert the hearts of those who plan, organize, and carry out these inhuman actions, which offend God, who commanded, ‘You shall not kill,’” the pope said. After offering prayers for the victims in Moscow, Pope Francis made a long appeal for peace in Ukraine, asking people to pray in particular for those in Ukraine who do not have electricity. “Let us pray for all our brothers and sisters who are suffering because of war,” the pope said...

Pope Francis Gives Thanks to Young Nigerian Priests and Nuns who Answered God’s Call (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis gave thanks on Monday for the many young Nigerians who have answered God’s call to the priesthood or religious life. In a meeting with Nigerians living in Rome on March 25, the pope said he was grateful for all that Nigerian Catholics have done to bear witness to the Gospel, especially as many parts of the country are experiencing insecurity and Christian persecution. “I also join you in thanking Almighty God for the many young Nigerians who have heard the Lord’s call to the priesthood and consecrated life and responded with generosity, humility, and perseverance,” Pope Francis said. “There are some here among you, young priests and young nuns,” he remarked. “May you always be missionary disciples, grateful that the Lord has chosen you to follow him and has sent you to zealously proclaim our faith and contribute to the construction of a more just and humane world.” Nigeria has had a vocations boom in the past 50 years. In 2019, more than 400 diocesan priests were ordained in the West African country, which also sends priests to serve dioceses facing priest shortages in the United States and Europe. Last year, Nigeria was recognized as having the highest Mass attendance in the world... Nigeria has also been recognized as one of the most dangerous countries in the world to be a Christian...

In Letter to Holy Land Christians, Pope Francis Deplores the War, Expresses Closeness (ACI Africa)

Pope Francis on Wednesday issued a letter to the Christians of the Holy Land in preparation for Good Friday, expressing his solidarity with a community that continues to suffer amid the ongoing Israel-Hamas war. “Dear brothers and sisters, allow me to tell you once more that you are not alone. We will never leave you alone but will demonstrate our solidarity with you by prayer and practical charity,” the pope wrote in his Holy Wednesday letter. “In these bleak times, when it seems that the dark clouds of Good Friday hover over your land, and all too many parts of our world are scarred by the pointless folly of war — which is always and for everyone a bitter defeat — you are lamps shining in the night, seeds of goodness in a land rent asunder by conflict,” the pope continued. Emphasizing his “paternal affection,” the pope joined the beleaguered population in sharing in their “sufferings” and “struggles.” “I embrace those most affected by the senseless tragedy of war: the children robbed of their future, those who grieve and are in pain, and all who find themselves prey to anguish and dismay,” the pope continued. Cardinal Pierbattista Pizzaballa, the Latin patriarch of Jerusalem, called the situation “objectively intolerable” in an interview last week... Quoting from Paul VI’s 1964 apostolic exhortation Nobis in Animo, Francis wrote: “The continuing tensions in the Middle East, and the lack of concrete progress toward peace, represent a constant and dire threat not only to the peace and security of those peoples — and indeed of the entire world — but also to values supremely dear, for different reasons, to much of mankind”...

From Pope Francis - I am asking in the Name of God: Ten prayers for a future of hope (SPCK, 2023) (link):

that the culture of abuse be eradicated from the Church;
protection of our common home;
resistance to fake news and hate speech;
a politics orientated towards the common good;
an end to the madness of war;
a welcome for immigrants and refugees;
greater participation in society by women;
economic growth for poor countries;
universal access to health care;
and not using the name of God to incite wars.

Francis also quotes Martin Luther King Jr: "The choice today is no longer between violence and nonviolence. It is either nonviolence or nonexistence".

In March Pope Francis is quoted as saying,"it is very important that there is this meeting, this meeting between men and women because today the ugliest danger is gender ideology, which cancels out differences". Gender ideology which seeks to blur differences between men and women through movements such as trangenderism "makes everything the same". Erasing differences is erasinging humanity. "Men and Women are in fruitful tension". "It is imperative to understand the Anthropological truth we forget and sometimes obscure the reality". Mater et Magista speaks here in a reaffirmation of the "Theology of the Body". It come at a time when transgenderism and transhumanism attacks are mounting. The LGQBTP++ empire may be "a bit offended" by the Vicar of Christ's timely teachings....JMJ....

Bergoglio is not silent in his new book fresh on the newstands. He advocates for the legal support of same sex ubions "homosexuals} who experience the gift of "love". I ask in what sense is homosexual love a gift from God, the Church is certain it aint a gift from God, What then does Begoglio's remark mean because he obviously thinks homosexual love is not an inherently disordered form of love. Is he thinking that the homosexual has a special propensity to chastity and hence love in a same sex relationship. Really Jorge you are so confusing, Love in a homosexual relationship because if he is suggesting that this love is due to chastity then it is imposible, he knows chastity is a vocation. The fact is with expert Bergoglian confusion he has muddied the waters and muddy water does not run deep, by calling false love a gift. He hates to go back in history to old documents to confirm this, all he has to due is read some of Wojtyla's comments, "Love is the union of persons an objective union in which a man and a woman constitute one subject, one flesh (Gen2:24). It is of a common good that is the good of all human persons which binds them". Bergoglio not only challenges scripture and tradition but the Catechism which asserts that homosexual acts are closed to life, such acts do not have an objective union in the differentiation of a man and a woman under no circumstances can they be approved (except with this pope) such acts are a sin gravely contrary to chastity, Homosexual love is not a gift. I bet tucho and company can hardly wait to change this (officialy) they already have by their public pronouncements....JMJ....

Are you refering to Life: My Story Through History that came out last month?