Book Discussion: To Ride Hell's Chasm - SPOILER FREE thread

I'm not too far into it, (I'm only on page 35) but I am enjoying it thus far. Remember this is the SPOILER FREE thread. ;o) All violators will be fed to the wolves in some other group. Please only post about how you are (or are not) enjoying the book so far. And feel free to make comparisons to other authors, etc.

For example, if we were discussing The Lord of the Rings for the first time you would refrain from making statements like this: "I'm not done yet, but I cried when Gollum bit off Frodo's finger, before he fell" or anything even vaguely spoilerish. ;o)

Enjoy!

Touchstone - Hell's Chasm!

Finished now, so I have to be very careful what I say! I enjoyed it, more so than when I last read it, where for some reason it didn't quite sit right with me. This time round it was gripping! A lovely world, well described. The magic system is completely novel, I've never come across anything like it before.

I'm about 100 pages in or so. It seems to be taking a bit of time to really get going, but I'm liking the main character. The prose gets a little purplish in spots, but not throw-against-the-wall-worthy.

I'm about a quarter done. Some of the wording has caused me to go back and read a paragraph over again. I think it says one thing, then the next paragraph doesn't make any sense with the interpretation. THAT is irritating. Over all the story isn't bad, and now that I'm catching Wurts pace I can start to see around the next corner, I don't know where it's going but I can see the shadows on the wall.

The last 50 pages or so I'm really starting to enjoy the book, though I think the next 10 or so are going to tick me off by what I 'see' coming hopefully not.

I did have to re-read a few paragrahs, though that is quite common with me, given the speed at which I sometimes read.

#4,5 I found I had to really concentrate to be able to read this. At times found the wording quite enjoyable (and a good reason to block out the rest of the world a bit more). Other times, when I wanted the book to speed up, I wasn't so happy with it.

I'm about 80% through and very anxious to see what is coming and to understanding some aspects a bit more (hopefully). Since I'm in the thick of it, I just have a bunch of impressions and I'm not sure what to make of them. One of them is that the feel has changed quite a bit as the book progressed. But, I'm sure how much I should say in this thread about that. I'll risk a little. I thought the first part of the was really nicely written. Especially the first 100 pages or so, where they text just felt worked over and fine-tuned and just pleasant to read. It gave the book a rich feel. I was really enjoying the character build up. I also found I had to fully concentrate to get things, because often the words only indirectly described what was actually happening.

At some point, that same "rich" feel became instead more like a thick feel, and for awhile it seemed like the description made things go slow-motion, and parts of the story felt constrained. Then it gently picked up again, but with a new and very different feel. I'm finding myself constantly rethinking things through as I read (I now realize I must have missed a lot). I hope I haven't said too much. Anyway, yes I like it!

I agree, its not easy to concentrate on, but I am starting to get into it

I am delighted to have been invited to participate - and as promised - here are a few non spoiling author insights as to how the seed ideas and my own motivation impelled the multifaceted creation of this book.

Often, I pull inspiration and mood from musical scores - this story began to the exuberant themes found on Mike Oldfield's cd, Millennium Bell. I will post the what other music I played as I wrote further in the Spoiler Only thread.

Long before this book was conceived, I read the Barbara Hambly title Stranger at the Wedding. What I admired most about that story was the fact that it revolved around just one event and took place in a very short timeline. The author built on a universe already created in another trilogy. Nonetheless, her story read as a gripping standalone.

One shot fantasies are great stuff. I've done two others before Hell's Chasm. I'd do more of them if time permitted. For years, I've been heavily involved in the midst of a massive series, with ideas conceived over decades of planning. When I begged "time off" after a rigorous deadline to play with something different, I felt the ripe urge for a break from that longstanding commitment.

Sometimes angst plays - it gets tiresome, sometimes, that the field is in a cycle of "sequel production" - so many fantasy tales cover enormous stretches of ground. Mine included! Though when I originally conceived of my whopping idea, there was no such cascade of brick sized fantasy tales on the marketplace. (yeah, that was awhile ago. I was pretty young and really really wet behind the ears. I was told, "you will never ever sell this, there is no market for anything of the sort...) But when the idea encompasses a rich and deep premise, a multi volume work allows incredible scope to engineer the arc of a major idea...A series takes so much more territory into account, and can be developed in much wider context. But the time commitment required to create this, when your readers are also your contemporaries - can become more than a bit problematic. No one can see the whole scope in one take until the whole project is finished! Sometimes, in the protracted course of such labor, editors leave, publishing mergers occur, and readers who can see only as far as the current installment write insistent notes berating the author for 'losing their way,' or charging that a writer can't finish, or is unnecessarily prolonging the production.

Well, OK, that's fair enough. The proof has to emerge in the pudding, and that, pal, isn't quite baked, yet.

Most readers mean well - often such frustration is due to rampaging impatience. Sometimes it's balled up in an outside frustration, regarding some other series in progress, written by a peer, whose labor of love is also not yet finished. An author immersed in such a long work has frustration, in this respect, too. One can't produce any faster than one's earnest output...and quality has to matter more than a speedy delivery.

Speaking strictly for myself, I don't write a thing I can't wrap up, or don't know, with precision, just how to bring on to an ending finale. It's the unpredictable twist and turn that laces all the threads to resounding convergence - sometimes that planning isn't apparent, mid course, and trusting the author will deliver becomes an act of faith on the reader's part. If they've been disappointed before, then that poses a real risk - what if the journey disappoints, or what if, in fact, an author fails to deliver the finish?

Always, the proof is found in the pudding! A rebuttal in the form of a story seemed an apt way to answer the dratted nay sayers.

I elected to write a one off tale that encapsulated that solid delivery, but done in microcosm. A tight little adventure with converging threads that could be orchestrated to fit into one volume, opened, developed, and built to a head with all of the walloping impact of something much larger.

I'd already overstepped the "one incident" book - sigh - throwing up of authorial hands - all right, chuck the phone book thick series at my muse in consternation - I don't like symphonies in one key - but I'd not over reached by too much. More than one of the players just plain jumped forward and hooked me into caring.

The evolution began there.

I will add more particulars in the spoiler thread. These early insights will not be plot-specific. I'll wait for your direct questions, put to me by name, to address any point, as this will allow free discussion among yourselves.

The outline for the plot as written solidified about three years later, (yeah, I mull a LOT before I start a book - only the best of the best ideas ever see daylight as more than stray notations. Lame fragments don't survive.) The outline pitched to the publisher (HarperCollins in Britain, originally) stayed unfailingly true to form - except for the dratted characters. More of those guys grabbed hold of their roles, and bent the entire thing Their way.

The result got quite interesting. Have some good fun! I certainly did, in the writing.

OT question for Janny:

You like Mike Oldfield? My hubby's a big fan of him and his sister, Sally.

Just placed a hold/request at the library. Should be able to get it today. Could not find it in store yet. Borders reports it out of print. B&N lists the trade PB.

Morphidae - yup. For years and years. What a constantly boggling and inventive composer!!! I am always surprised. And he plays most of his own instruments....(once recorded the contents of a tool box!?!) I tend to prefer Mike Oldfield to Sally, though Waterbearer was quite nice.

I'm also finding it slow going, for some reason. I think the style of writing requires a bit more attention than normal, which really slows down my normal speedy reading. Not that it's a bad thing, because it means I'll probably retain what's happened better than normal. I'm about 150 pages in and enjoying the story so far.

I started this on my trip (over 1100 miles driving), and am not overwhelmingly involved in the story yet, but that may be due to the fact that my brain is dead from driving so much. What I have read, I have enjoyed, though I'm not thrilled with the society. So far I'm not really drawn to anyone, I think I'm afraid to commit to any of the characters. I have no plans for stopping though, I am looking forward to reading more and finding things out.

For those finding the start slow:

I found the shape of the book to be something somewhat like riding a river over a waterfall - there is a long slow period where you are in a deep moving current, you then find this is too strong to get out of but not especially fast, then very rapidly you are swept into the maelstrom battered and ripped by currents and at the far of the plunge pool you emerge shaken and into placid waters once more.

#14 That's a good description. (I just finished last night.)

Well, I'm very attached to the 'desert bred' fella, and I'm not that far into it. Some of the descriptions read like free verse poetry to me. Yes, I have to reread some of the sentences to fully understand them, but they are beautifully worded. :o)

Picked up a copy from the public library, and have just gotten started. I think I am goig to enjoy this.

Note, I live in Montgomery County, PA. 483 sq miles, population approximately 776,340 (2005). There are 62 boroughs (town/village) and townships. 40 are townships. I imagine most of these "census tracts" have a library; and the county library system is interconnected, to have a card in my township gives me access/privileges throught the county and indeed, the PA public libraries.

Only 2 libraries in Montgomery County have a copy of To Ride Hell's Chasm. I had to go to a neighboring township to check out one of those two! But worth it, I'm sure.

I'm enjoying the story, but there's something just odd stylistically. It's the sentence structure or using too many adjectives or something I can't quite put my finger on. Weird word choices--is "startlement" really a word?

Thanks for message 14, readingfox, I'm ready for that maelstrom to come...it's getting a little tiresome for me at this point. (I'm at about pg 200.)

18 > I think you meant reading_fox... your actually just ahead of me in the book right now.

#19 oops, sorry. I'll fix.

#18, littlegeek: "too many adjectives" Hadn't noticed that yet. The author who I thought poured on too many adjectives was Donaldson in the Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever chronicles books. Sometimes seemed like he composed via thesaurus.

Stephen Donaldson has a very wide vocabularly - or else does use a dictionary/thesaurus to write. But the words he choose are very specific in meaning, distinct from similar words. He is the only author where the I've had to use a dictionary occasionally as the sense of the word isn't always clear form context. English can be a very subtle language.

Back on subject. Donaldson's style is very different from Janny's.

Janny do you feel Hell's Chasm has captured the same style that you put into the longer series works? Or does the condensed format necessitate a different way of writing?

Mine Arrived! *swoons* it's the hardcover version and the first thing I opened to was a gorgeous color plate of fantastical creatres... I can hardly wait to dig in... skimming it I can already see the word twisting mentioned above, almost lyrical...

yay for noonlight! You're not too far behind I don't think, I'm only about halfway through. Sorry you had to wait so long though :/

I'm a bit more than half way through. Read until 4:30am yesterday/today. Now I have nasty housework interfering. I'll do Morphy's 5 minute plan. Obviously I'm really enjoying it, but I do have a bit of trouble with some of the dialogues and the assumptions some of the characters make from what another has said. Sometimes it just doesn't follow for me. However, I have trouble with people in real life who make assumptions from what others say too. I never get it, always say, "but he said..."

Reading Fox - Ok, you asked.

The styles of both works are somewhat similar...here's how they're alike:

Being a serious painter (yes, all of the artwork, cover paintings, maps, and graphics on both the British and the American editions are my own work) and also given my years of musical discipline - the style for this book and the large series are going to be "loaded" for visuals and also for what a kindly fellow author calls "bardic beat" - the rhythm of the wording will be at play. (If you take your time and read a passage aloud, you will sense that design in the pace of the prose). These bits have always been with me, for as long as I've been writing, probably absorbed through the skin, since I read the whole hardback fiction section of our small town's public library as a kid, while still running wild outdoors.

Except for a very rare few books, fantasy as we know the genre today did not exist. SF was far more prevalent, mostly in paperback, and not on the shelf at the average communiy library. (I lived not very far from Montgomery County, then, by the way) The books I read then were written before the short-form, simplified language used in TV dialague and news media.

I do love the -yes- the precision of the English language. No blink of embarrassment for that. But a word isn't there because I liked it soooo much - nothing put down is window dressing.

Every bit was carefully chosen, and has a reason to be there.

To address your question (without going off like a haywire torpedo on a tangent) the one shot book is like the larger series: its chosen style sets mood - either aligns or strikes contrast against - the active engagement of the characters. Every detail shown reveals something about the people, their society, their motivation, or is a coloration hinting at an underlying tension that will erupt as a power play later.

Here's where the difference lies: the one shot novel runs on maybe three "levels" of interconnected suspense, for a plot that moves in a straight line. If I did my job well, and provided the eclectic taste of reader and this story are matched, it will unveil more of its workings and sustain a re-read that evokes its deeper layers of invention.

But here's the difference regarding the long work.

The series has mucho more angles at play. It's been designed to change and unveil itself endlessly in reread. Not just by evoking more and more depth. Each subsequent volume changes the reader's the angle of view. It will bust the cliche, sometimes with dynamite. The events, in sequence, will radically upend and spin the perspective as each new installment is unveiled....it's dimensional, not linear - in that nothing is as it seemed, at first pass. That story doesn't spread out. It deepens and heightens, and more....everything in it will flip perspective on end, depending on how the reader grows their opinions and viewpoint, through life.

The contour of the series will change. A read for the action at age twenty, then a reread five years later, or ten, or whenever, will see a whole other landscape unveiled.

The style of the larger series had to be tweaked a lot more to handle those other levels. It doesn't lend well to skimming. Not every reader wants or has patience for that sort of total immersion. Or an impact, orchestrated to a finish, that is searingly unforgettable.

Hell's Chasm is a much simpler story.

But to a lesser degree, its style has also been geared for an impacting experience.

Such an approach will not reward the quick off the mark presumption, or the simplistic take of a "black/white" projection. (No mistake, I am not condemning that sort of book! There are 'airplane' moments where I just want to be coddled, or amused after a rough day, or just wrap up in a warm fuzzy story that won't challenge my thinking a bit.) The impatience that rips in "just to see what happens" will get zonked by such cocksure assumptions. The delivery's been packed out to explode from a platform of careful staging, and the atmospheric/nuance based style is fashioned to support that unwinding payoff.

Doesn't mean I can't learn to be better, or have to rigidly stand on my shortfalls. Anyone who wants to point out a passage that gave them difficulty - go on and do that in the spoiler section. If you're inclined, the exchange might become illuminating, in all respects - put simply, LT's polite, interactive feedback poses an opportunity too sweet to pass up. You get to ask for the author's take, and the author gains a valuable insight into an individual reader's perspective.

Not to be too snotty, but I can point to an example of what I'm talking about right in your post. I know, a blog post is hardly well thought out, but it does serve to exemplify whatever it is that bugs me. This seems like clunky construction to me:

its style has also been geared for an impacting experience.

I might have recast the final phrase as "maximum impact." You take a good solid noun, convert it to adjectival form and use it to modify a different noun that carries much less, well, impact.

That's the kind of thing that I find slightly odd about the writing style. But this is most definitely a quibble. I am enjoying the story, and look forward to the maelstrom!

#27 - Yeah, but littlegeek, that's the whole point. The phrase 'maximum impact' has been used a bazillion times. Why not find new ways to say the same thing? I like to give my brain a bit of a workout when I read. You must too, or you wouldn't like George Elliot! ;o)

#28 clam, you're right, I'm not the writer. I would love to see a phrase used because it was actually a better way of saying it, not just because it was different. I don't think that construction is more clear nor more melodic.

I love TC Boyle, for instance, who loves to throw in the unusual word choice. But he does it sparingly, and without throwing the rest of the sentence into chaos or sacrificing clearly stated meaning.

I would find an example from the book itself but, d'oh! I left it at my office. Tomorrrow...

Popping back in to say again that this style stuff is piddling. It's like clothing--subject to fashion and personal taste. What's really important is the substance of the story--characters, plot, theme. So far, I'm enjoying these elements.

I don't think you can separate the style from the rest of the work. The style is the writers voice, it's an essential part of the writing. Here, I think it's especially important, because style has been carefully manipulated for effect.

I agree. If I can't read the book because of the style, none of the other elements mean anything.

I'm not referring to group read, just in general.

While I enjoy what I consider to be good prose style, if the book lacks style but has other things to recommend it, I'll hang in there.

Conversely, if a book is all style and little substance it's a waste of time. Cryptonomicon is a good example of this, imho.

Interesting that you chose Cryptonomicon as an example. I would have placed that as a book with substance. But, rethinking it through I see your point. Neil Stephenson does have substance, but he often side steps discussing the main concepts and instead just writes about people thinking through the concepts. So, often there is a lot of talk and in the center, where the concrete idea should be, there is just a puff of smoke. But, Cryptonomicon did have a point, he indicates WWII cryptogoraphy not only jump- started the digital computer, but was an important midway step - and, more importantly, he indicates how the relationship between the two reveal something about the fundamentals of the computer. I assumed his points are valid, but I'm hardly qualified to know.

Grrrr... It' s just too easy to fall off topic... But then I might add this to my Cryptonomicon review :D

A point is not the same as a theme. I didn't care about the characters and there was little insight into the human condition, unless the importance of Captain Crunch counts. (it just might...)

Point-theme-substance - semantics!! Argh. I agree, the characters made me laugh, but I don't recall finding much depth - well, maybe except with Root.

I think Root was too enigmatic to be considered human.

Isn't this supposed to be about some other book?

Well, how interesting! Lends some provocative grist for the mill.

Had an editor flagged that phrase as clutzy, I'd say thanks, and respond by adjusting it.

Maximum impact - true enough, that re-phrase is crisp. Though it doesn't convey the meaning I wanted. To my ear, it suggests a blunt ending engaged for its shock factor. A sharp impression - Whap! Done! - the forceful feel hits too strongly. Each of us might regard the same words very differently. Personally, I'd avoid the risk of implying the cheap shot, or splatter surprise. That's not this book.

The construction wasn't at fault - just clunky wording.

geared for a lasting impact -- or -- geared for a lasting experience - does better.

You bet I had to grope a bit, here...not to tip any spoiler cards, even by implication. ;0

On a general note, it's an interesting discussion angle - solid story, vs personal style, how does one build, or detract from, the other.

Some people insist upon minimalist music, some prefer baroque, and the debates decrying one for the other - human individuality can evoke such - exuberant - controversy.

Clothing's an astute analogy.

My landlord (where I rented for 13 years) was an author. Daniel P. Mannix In the heat of the summer, when the windows in my carriage house apartment were open, I used to hear him composing his manuscripts on a manual typewriter. He would hire a typist for the final pages. In his day, publishers maintained enough staff to do line edits, and copy editors worked in-house. Astonishing, how the late trend of mega-corporate accounting, and the levels of standardized tests for vocabulary have altered the industry.

I was shocked, the first time I heard that some nationally known national magazines (in the US) are now standardized to third grade English.

Vocabulary really isn't the issue. I haven't run across any words I don't know. Sometimes there are unusual forms chosen, such as an adjectival form of a word normally used as a noun. If that usage adds elegance or meaning to the phrase that's great. If not, why bother?

Unless it's a "baffle 'em with bs" form of plotting?

Ah well, all will soon become clear....I hope!

I don't think any of us in here are reading, or even enjoy reading anything written on a third grade level. In fact, many of us were whining about the lack of style in American Gods, even though we found out it was a very deliberate choice on Neil Gaiman's part. I have heard a lot of people complain about J.R.R. Tolkien's writing being 'too descriptive' here in the Dragon, though. So, obviously, you can't please all of the people all of the time, and no one should try.

Oh, I can please all of the people on this thread any time I want to.

It's simple:

WHO WANTS FREE MONEY? :D

See... if I offered that, everyone would be happy :)

But I don't ... I said I can please everyone on this thread, not that I will.

:)

But back to the point, no matter what one creates there are detractors.

When I visited the Louvre, and saw the Mona Lisa I happened to hear a woman near my say "Oh, it's awfully small. And she isn't that pretty."

If he gets detractors, so does everyone else. It's only fair.

See... if I offered that, everyone would be happy :)

#41 - Nothing in life is free...what's the catch?

or: I'd rather have chocolate.

BUMP!

How are people getting along? Will you all be finished before saturday (If you need to ask what's special about saturday, don't, you'll be fine just carry on reading)- or will these threads need resurecting after you've detoured to another book?

No, I'm not going to be done by Saturday, so I will be truly torn! Decisions, decisions...

I'll be done for Saturday... it's a must considering I'll then be into HP...

I've not started my re-read of Hell's Chasm yet as I've been re-reading 'The War of Light and Shadow' books but I finished Peril's Gate last night and thought I could slip in Hell's Chasm before Traitor's Knot. But now I'm wondering how long my daughter will take to read HP7. The weekly shop has been brought foreward so that she has Saturday completely free. Mind you, she may not let me read her copy as she is very finicky about the condition of her books, I'll probably have to wear white gloves and promise not to open it more than an inch! yes I think I'll have time for Hell's Chasm.

#33 and earlier... littlegeek, are you looking for trouble *smiles to disarm the situation immediately*

Our reactions to style are subjective and we react or interact with books individually - like with music. We don't all like the same songs to the same degree, even when we enjoy the same genre (rock, jazz, etc.).

I would guess you disliked the style of Cryptonomicon so much that you did not catch the substance. Also, both the WW2 plot line and the contemporary plot lines were right up my alley, so it was all good for me. I got bogged down a few time in the course of Stephenson's Baroque Cycle.

#43 nice bump, there, reading fox. I won't be done with Hell's Chasm by Saturday. My problem is I've got the library loan going for Hell's Chasm. Guess I will have to break down and buy it, especially if Ms. Wurts indicates it has values apparent only in a 2nd reading!

cad, I think you missed my point about Cryptonomicon....I actually liked the style, but after a while there wasn't enough substance to sustain my interest.

littlegeek, I definitely missed that the style was not a problem. To repeat myself, I've always enjoyed stories, etc of WW2; I am a computer professional, no matter my job title, I think of myself as a programmer. So both time lines had substance, or "stuff" that interested me. Personal preferences, and we are all free to enjoy our own.

...popping in between page proofs and other July craziness, like T storms that hammer us with power outages - and the most gorgeous sunset cloud towers, wow!!!!

Nobody has to like everything - but a spirited exchange of ideas is stimulating, and understanding another point of view can be quite valuable without necessarily changing the ground you prefer.

Differences are the spice - one of the scariest experiences I ever had was to go behind the iron curtain in the Soviet Union in the seventies, when dialogue between governments had JUST been reestablished...what I saw of creativity in children's illustration, in a state run environment, and even, packaging of items in supermarkets - still makes me shudder! Sometimes we complain never realizing we live in a very free and rich environment that has such an aggressive streak of expression. We have all these choices, and each one is precious to somebody.

Idea driven books vs character driven ones, it's a polarized chasm, to some people. Sometimes an idea driven book may be sharper as a nonfiction title - Seeds of Change comes to mind. But some people read only for idea driven books, and are bothered by characters that get in the way. Day of the Jackal comes to mind, in that vein.

I like invention in many directions - (Have a chocolate, this is a discussion) - and I admit to some pretty strong preferences. What I love has a passion to it - When I encounter something that's not my cuppa, I may explore it just to see where the author was taking me - a few times, I've been flat surprised. My hot out of the box supposition was way off base, only recognized when I got to the ending.

What constitutes substance in a story?

I'll bet if we all answered that one, we'd have extremely individual answers. (might be interesting to see, come to think of it)

What constitutes substance in a story?

I can't put a finger on what exactly that is, but I can say this. I know when I feel a story has substance. Like everyone else, I read for a time, then I put the book down, and go to work, or make a meal, or work in the yard, or shower or whatever. If I find myself feeling that my home is the world of the book, and that I am "visiting" the real world, waiting to get back to my home - then I know the story has substance.

Summarized: for me, a story has substance when it has enough of a draw to become my "primary home" for the duration of (and immediately after) the book.

Perhaps I have answered "When does JPB know a story has grabbed him?" instead of the question posed. But to me, substance is so many different things. Some books have substance in description, some in plot, some in giving the emotional depths of their characters. But any of these approaches, if done skillfully, can grab you. I believe stories that end up being mediocre in all these areas end up being ho-hum stories, and that (for most authors) an attempt to delve deeply in all these areas creates an over-long result.

52> I like your answer and can't think of a better way to say it myself.

What constitutes substance in a story?

To expand on #52's thoughts, for me a story has substance if upon reading it there is a sense to me that the story is telling itself. I don't quite know how to describe this phenomena, but when characters and settings transcend the written pages to take form and shape in my mind (and often heart) I consider that substance. It's J. R. R. Tolkein's Middle Earth; C. S. Lewis's Narnia ; R. A. Salvatore's Icewind Dale ; and George R. R. Martin's Westeros. With "substance" stories, I don't feel like I'm reading something out of an author's mind, but rather discovering uncharted realms with tales that were simply waiting to be told.

I'm only about half through To Ride Hell's Chasm but so far Sessalie and its inhabitants (especially Mykkael and Taskin) have taken shape enough that I can visualize the kingdom as possessing its own life and history. As JPB would say I'm sufficiently "grabbed".

Certainly an illusive quantity.
I like JPB's metaphor of living in the book world and visiting the real world, only because one has to.

A certain dgree of belivability - characters behave in ways that seem reasonable given the situation (and universe) they are in. In turn this leads to elbakerone's "possessing its own life and history" which I also agree with. It can be overdone. I don't want to read about the 'backstory' for ages, that confuses substance with volume - substance is not depth though most of C j Cherryh's works have both. There must also be parallels one can draw from the novel to the real world when one is forced back to it.

Have I progressed the definition much. No.

I agree with JPB and others on substance, for myself, in addition to those things the story/characters will make me examine something about myself/beliefs/life/views. Possibly changing them, possibly not. That isn't important, what's important to me is that I sit up and take notice and am required to ask questions of myself and the author and the story.

What constitutes substance in a story?

JPB's response inspired me to dash out my own response. But, I came up empty. This question just doesn't have an easy answer. So, I tried thinking about it longer. The answer below feels vague, and ephemeral, it would probably totally different tomorrow, but it’s an answer.

I think of the substance as that dense center of the story that is thick enough that you can chew on it. It's not a physical thing. But the imagination is so strong that we can conjure volume out of thin air and almost feel it. When we do chew on it, it has resistance. We can swallow it, and then feel it moving around in our gut - some thick mass of emotion and imaginative experience.

So, what is it in a story that inspires this kind of response? I can’t pin it down to any single thing. In my favorite books, which tend to have a strong naturalist feel, it’s tone, but also characters, history, and place. In other books it may be the emotions they bring up, or the charm, or the nerves that a disturbing story strikes. For me it’s not the rush; that fades quickly. Also, I think I can safely say it’s not plot. It's the experience.

The only thing I could add to the substantial things said here - for me a story not only has to draw me in, more than just give me an experience that's alive - it also has to leave me with something in hand after the fact. I need to have seen something, or gained an insight, or have watched as an idea I held became reexamined or changed. Substance also has to deliver an impact that gives me something more than what I held before I started out on that journey.

Unless I am reading just for comfort. Those books do not need substance - they're aspirin. One's as alike as the next, and I have never re-read a one of them, or recommended them, beyond casually passing them on.

Lotsa people inherited a book, for the fact they got a train or a plane seat, just after me.

What constitutes substance in a story?

Yep, I'd agree with what's been said before, when a book grabs you, drags you into that world and holds you there (even when you're not reading it), then you know it's got substance - and after you've finished it, it lives on in your thoughts and memories. Those are the great books, the stories that just won't let you go.

And what's more, you can never really tell where or when the next one will come along... (at least, I can't).

I've been reading Jenny's books for quite a while and I've noticed a change in style over time, comparing say Sorcerer's Legacy or Master of Whitestorm to newer books like To Ride Hell's Chasm or Traitor's Knot.
Janny is very good with the maxim that reminds an author to 'show' a reader what's happening however, I have noticed a trend in more recent books to 'tell' as well as 'show'. This is not really a problem in most places as it adds to the depth of flavour of the book BUT it does have an impact on the pace.
I find it rather annoying in scenes that need a faster pace, e.g. fight scenes, I want my blood to be pumping along with the characters as they struggle for their lives I don't want to be bashing my head against the prose. I can recall a recent one where I actually got bored and put the book down.
Another trend I've noticed is the need to repeat information. E.g. his struggle with his reflexes, or, I know Arithon has inner conflict after 7 books, stop telling me, let me just see it.
Sorry if that all sounded rather negative I guess I just wanted to vent. I actually own all Janny's books and love her stories and characters I guess I'm just frustrated that I'm not enjoying one of my favourite authors as much as I used to.

P.S. Janny I actually blame your editors for this as an author can't be expected to be totally objective about their work and editors should be the ones to point out problem spots.

Of course after all that I'll probably find I'm alone with my issues.

Authorial amusement, here -- did nobody catch the third major theme, woven into this tale...?

.....have I given y'all enough time?

(snort and duck!)

Janny,

I have been rather slow to start reading, due to lots and lots of little things, but I am loving the book. The captain of the Guard Taskin is a good guy. I think in time he will be someone I love to hate but hate to love.
He has that high handed way of dealing with people, but you can tell he respects his men.

Mykkael reminds me very much of Lackey's Alberich. In that he is very much in a world where people don't understand him and to some extent fear him because of it. Yet he does his best not to let this get to him.
My heart went out to him when he was forced to strip and show that he didn't have any of the marks that his people normally bear.

I am very much waiting to see what happens next.

RuneFirestar - My heart went out to him when he was forced to strip and show that he didn't have any of the marks that his people normally bear.

Yes, that was a part of the book where my stomach was tied in knots.

I wish that Taskin had more trust in Mykkael. Just because he is desert-bred and works in unconventional ways doesn't mean he's a threat to the Kingdom.

He gave his oath that he would serve King and Kingdom. Why is that not enough?

What constitutes substance in a story?

Much like a meal, a story must have volume to be satisfying to a discerning reader.

A story with generic characters and plot line is too easily mentally digested, and passes out of the brain too quickly to leave memories or impressions behind (almost like a weak, thin broth requires little digestion and 'passes' quickly through the body). It was this very reason that brought me to begin publishing: modern fantasy books had begun to be too predictable for me as a reader.

...On the topic of TRHC, congratulations to all of you who have written thus far in this thread: you've convinced me that I must go buy another copy! Oh, Janny, why didn't you suggest that I buy a copy for myself when you signed the first one for my sister at Conestoga? :(

-Danny Birt

I've been rethinking the idea of substance for the last few days, ever since I finished Angle of Repose (by Wallace Stegner). It's an interesting book. It's fiction, but the main characters are loosely based on real people, a husband and wife who in ~1870's lived in various rough places in the west including Idaho, Leadville, CO, Mexico and a couple places in California. The basis of the wife is Mary Hallock Foote, a somewhat important author of her time. And, the book directly quotes real letters by her written from all these places.

So, not only are the places real, but we have real words from the actual times. No matter what I may think of the story, I can't deny it has a validity - it has weight...substance.

So, how to re-define substance of a story? I would say that it's the effect the story leaves on us after we finish the story. If the story carries weight, it if sticks, finds a place to firmly rest in our minds... if it has something that can secure it there, maybe by a mental rope from a firmly implanted mental peer. (I'm having more word trouble, I'm trying to avoid the word "resonate" - which is close to what I mean, but also a little bit different)... well, it's these aspects that I think determine the substance of a story.

But, my thoughts will probably change again shortly.

There have been some excellent points made, here.

I also think when a story bears upon an issue that's an active one, or that sparks a recognition about something that affects in our personal lives, then that adds meaning that gives it substance.

An new update announcement for anyone who may not have had a chance to find To Ride Hell's Chasm at the time of the group read, or who wishes to sample an audio teaser - I have just posted audio files of a reading of the first three chapters of this book for free download (in addition to the text excerpt of chapter one.)

There are two ways to access the audio files, which are in MP3 format:

if you want to just play them on your computer, straight up, use the link on my author page on Redroom. Under Media, click the play audio link, then click the start arrow. If your computer has quicktime player or itunes, or an mp3 capability, that program will automatically pick up the file and play it. Note: Chapter 1 and 2 files are visible. To find chapter 3, click "Show all media" and it will come up.
The link for this feature is:
http://www.redroom.com/author/janny-wurts

If you wish to download the mp3 file as an rss feed, (like a podcast) or to put on an mp3 player, such as an ipod, or device with mp3 capability use the link off the paravia page:

To subscribe to the podcast, go to this link http://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts/Version3/Audio/Readings.html and read the instructions at the bottom of the page for how to setup iTunes software to access the podcasts. If you don't have iTunes on your machine, it is a free download form Apple (link on the podcast page). Of course if you prefer to use some other podcast software, feel free.

It's a free sample - have fun!

Thank you for this Janny... very kind indeed :-)

Tane - you're most welcome!

Just a mention to say this title is now made available for the Kindle!

See... now you're just teasing me ;-)

As if I didn't have reason enough to buy a Kindle :-)

Actually, this is really good news... do you have many Kindleized books, Janny?

#72 - I don't have a kindle, either.

To my knowledge, this is the first - did you coin the term Kindleized?

I would not have had a clue, except that a reader told me. (The editorial staff at HarperCollins is way too overburdened.) I've asked about others, when readers made inquiries, and was told "they've been moved up in the queue" due to that interest.

I know the War of Light and Shadow series is in standard e book format, at least the first six volumes, thanks to Reading Fox, here, for letting me know.

The books are all being converted - I haven't a clue, with regard to the schedule.

Janny - I would love to have the War of Light and Shadow series on kindle. As for e-books - Amazon provides a free conversion to kindle format. I've tried it with Gutenberg Project books and with pdf format books. The results were readable, but with less-than-ideal formatting.

#73
Kindleized - you heard it here first ;-)

I'm looking forward to seeing how this whole new world of epublications develops.

# 74, dchaikin, amazing what you find out, when other readers investigate....apparently four volumes of the series are available in Kindeized versions (thank you, bow back to Tane) right now.

Grand Conspiracy, Peril's Gate, Traitor's Knot, and Stormed Fortress are immediate (and apparently were issued way earlier this year).

I've put through a query to find out when the earlier ones may be added to the loop. Apparently it is easier to format the newer titles.

I've also gotten word, today, that the e version of To Ride Hell's Chasm is completed. The editor is finding out whether this release is worldwide, yet, or just in the UK. Stand by for more info...

I am very excited because for many readers with limited space, e books are a tremendous convenience. I don't think we will see an end of paper books, but I think e books will replace the function that paperbacks held, back when they were inexpensive to buy.

WOW - a friend commissioned a kerrie (one of the beasties) from To Ride Hell's Chasm - made by the superb fantasy sculptor, Laura Reynolds - check it out, she's awesome!

http://www.epilogue.net/cgi/database/art/view.pl?id=125553

coolness...

Totally awesome sculpture!

Very nice!