Reading Group #11 ('The Gospel According to Mark')
DiscussionsGothic Literature
Rejoignez LibraryThing pour poster.
Ce sujet est actuellement indiqué comme "en sommeil"—le dernier message date de plus de 90 jours. Vous pouvez le réveiller en postant une réponse.
2brother_salvatore
Grreat choice! Love Borges. I think I might have this, but I know I haven't read it, so I can't wait to dig in.
3alaudacorax
I'll just copy v's link across:
http://anagrammatically.com/2008/03/09/borges-gospel-according-to-mark/
http://anagrammatically.com/2008/03/09/borges-gospel-according-to-mark/
4alaudacorax
Um ... I've read this before - but not by Borges, and as sci-fi (that is, set in outer space). I'll see if I can hunt up the story.
6pgmcc
I just read the on-line version linked to above. It was a lovely read. I found myself in the location and getting to know the people and the place.
About half way through it I had an inkling of how the ending was going to pan out.
Hats off to the translator; there was nothing other than the content of the story that could indicate the story may have been written in a language other than English.
The inintial description of Baltasa Espinosa, and the indications of the influences on his development, were artfully structured; the contrast between his father's and mother's instruction was nicely presented and young Espinosa's years of not wonce breaking his promise demonstrated the coping mechanism any son/daughter will adopt to respect both parents and not upset either one.
About half way through it I had an inkling of how the ending was going to pan out.
Hats off to the translator; there was nothing other than the content of the story that could indicate the story may have been written in a language other than English.
The inintial description of Baltasa Espinosa, and the indications of the influences on his development, were artfully structured; the contrast between his father's and mother's instruction was nicely presented and young Espinosa's years of not wonce breaking his promise demonstrated the coping mechanism any son/daughter will adopt to respect both parents and not upset either one.
7alaudacorax
#4 - The story I was thinking of was The Streets of Ashkelon by Harry Harrison, published eight years before this one and available online here - http://www.kobobooks.com/content/50-in-50/sc-ReQpDlUQ80iQS8osTSpOug/page1.html?s...
I suppose it's a case of parallel evolution rather than plagiarism?
ETA - And having tracked down that one, I have a sneaking feeling I've read yet another version of the story set in 19thC 'darkest Africa' or the Amazon or somewhere.
I suppose it's a case of parallel evolution rather than plagiarism?
ETA - And having tracked down that one, I have a sneaking feeling I've read yet another version of the story set in 19thC 'darkest Africa' or the Amazon or somewhere.
8veilofisis
Yeah, I'd say parallel evolution. Stories come from a lot of places, like plants: there are 'melons' from South America that are actually Solanum fruits and grow on shrubs, not vines. If you cut one open, it looks like a melon, smells like a melon, tastes like a melon, and yet it's much more closely related to an eggplant, tomato, or chile pepper. It's just a case of evolution arriving at the same end through incredibly different means. Stories are like that, and especially Gothic stories, I'd say. I think Borges' execution is more startling than similar work, however, and more interesting.
(Oh, and excuse the rambling botanical analogy: it all come back to plants for this girl.)
(Oh, and excuse the rambling botanical analogy: it all come back to plants for this girl.)
9alaudacorax
Have to say that, as a compulsive rambler myself, I found it fascinating.
I have a question, which I don't seem to be nearer answering despite two or three readings and, last night, getting three-quarters of the way through the Gospel of St. Mark: what's the significance, for the story, of the 'hero' having sex with the girl? Is there a significance?
I have a question, which I don't seem to be nearer answering despite two or three readings and, last night, getting three-quarters of the way through the Gospel of St. Mark: what's the significance, for the story, of the 'hero' having sex with the girl? Is there a significance?
10alaudacorax
I have to add that I've done all this thread's reading late at night and, probably, only half awake. So I'm probably missing the obvious. Apologies if I am.
By the way, all that raising the dead and curing the sick when your brain's in its Gothic mode doesn't half give you strange dreams.
By the way, all that raising the dead and curing the sick when your brain's in its Gothic mode doesn't half give you strange dreams.
11pgmcc
#9 what's the significance, for the story, of the 'hero' having sex with the girl?
I don't know what deep "significance" there might be, but it could have been reinforcing the impression, both in the hero's perception and in the mind of the reader, that the "hero" was well thought off and trusted by the family members; that he was the one the girl turned to in the frightening storm, even to the extent of coming to his bed.
If there's anything more significant than that, then it will have to be explained to me.
We could go into many lines of thought, such as the girl was sent to test him; he failed by proving himself as weak as any other human, hence his ultimate fate; or perhaps the author felt he had to have some sex in the story to sell it; etc... Without speaking directly to Borges, or finding his notes on the story, I doubt if we will ever know the full truth.
I found the language very interesting in that any "action" in the bed was not explicitly described; more implied. Probably a sign of the times when the story was written. It was all the more effective for that. (Of course, someone is going to tell me that the Spanish version has the most explicit love scene ever written and that I was a victim of the translator's moral censorship. I don't think so, though.)
I don't know what deep "significance" there might be, but it could have been reinforcing the impression, both in the hero's perception and in the mind of the reader, that the "hero" was well thought off and trusted by the family members; that he was the one the girl turned to in the frightening storm, even to the extent of coming to his bed.
If there's anything more significant than that, then it will have to be explained to me.
We could go into many lines of thought, such as the girl was sent to test him; he failed by proving himself as weak as any other human, hence his ultimate fate; or perhaps the author felt he had to have some sex in the story to sell it; etc... Without speaking directly to Borges, or finding his notes on the story, I doubt if we will ever know the full truth.
I found the language very interesting in that any "action" in the bed was not explicitly described; more implied. Probably a sign of the times when the story was written. It was all the more effective for that. (Of course, someone is going to tell me that the Spanish version has the most explicit love scene ever written and that I was a victim of the translator's moral censorship. I don't think so, though.)
12alaudacorax
#11 - ... he was the one the girl turned to in the frightening storm ...
Hmm - I couldn't (still can't) make up my mind if she had come of her own volition or had been sent.
I find the first paragraph a little difficult. Espinosa seems a little difficult to pin down. I'm wondering if Borges meant us to see him as some sort of 'everyman'.
Hmm - I couldn't (still can't) make up my mind if she had come of her own volition or had been sent.
I find the first paragraph a little difficult. Espinosa seems a little difficult to pin down. I'm wondering if Borges meant us to see him as some sort of 'everyman'.
13pgmcc
#12 I find the first paragraph a little difficult. Espinosa seems a little difficult to pin down.
I quite enjoyed the first paragraph. I got the impression that he was some sort of 'everyman' within the category of privileged sons of rich people. He also appears to be someone of no particularly strong feelings; so neither a mover nor a shaker. To me this is important to the story in that he is, due to the unforeseen circumstances of the floods, forced into a role of leadership for which he is not particularly suited or prepared.
Like yourself, I am unsure if the girl was sent or went of her own volition. This is of course one of the mysteries that can only be solved if Borges manages to send us a message.
I loved the phrase in the second paragraph, "He venerated France but detested the French." I think that may have been an insight into attitudes amongst the well-to-do of the time.
I quite enjoyed the first paragraph. I got the impression that he was some sort of 'everyman' within the category of privileged sons of rich people. He also appears to be someone of no particularly strong feelings; so neither a mover nor a shaker. To me this is important to the story in that he is, due to the unforeseen circumstances of the floods, forced into a role of leadership for which he is not particularly suited or prepared.
Like yourself, I am unsure if the girl was sent or went of her own volition. This is of course one of the mysteries that can only be solved if Borges manages to send us a message.
I loved the phrase in the second paragraph, "He venerated France but detested the French." I think that may have been an insight into attitudes amongst the well-to-do of the time.
14alaudacorax
#13 - ... attitudes amongst the well-to-do ... - This reminds me that I that I know practically nothing about South America over the last century or two. I lately read a biography of a S. American musician which made me realise there was this rich complex of histories and cultures of which I was quite ignorant.
In the light of that: there is obviously a certain amount of irony in the story in that Espinosa is clearly not a Christ-figure, but I wonder if there is even more irony apparent to Borges' compatriots.
In the light of that: there is obviously a certain amount of irony in the story in that Espinosa is clearly not a Christ-figure, but I wonder if there is even more irony apparent to Borges' compatriots.
15pgmcc
#14 but I wonder if there is even more irony apparent to Borges' compatriots
Quite possibly. Not only have I read the story in a language other than the author's, but I am distant in both geography, time and social context. I know nothing of how Spanish landowners viewed the indigenous population, or any other people not of their social class.
Even visiting another European country I would be unaware of certain nuances of behaviour, language or attitude.
It reminds me of a friend from Serbia. He is very well travelled and speaks many languages fluently. He visited Japan and he told me that it was the most alien experience he ever had. It was the first place he'd visited where no-one he met on the street had any words of any language that he spoke, and he couldn't make head-nor-tail of any of the signage.
I must admit, I have limited knowledge of South American society and literature. I have a number of translated books, including a collection of short stories called Dark Water that are supposed to be a good introduction.
Quite possibly. Not only have I read the story in a language other than the author's, but I am distant in both geography, time and social context. I know nothing of how Spanish landowners viewed the indigenous population, or any other people not of their social class.
Even visiting another European country I would be unaware of certain nuances of behaviour, language or attitude.
It reminds me of a friend from Serbia. He is very well travelled and speaks many languages fluently. He visited Japan and he told me that it was the most alien experience he ever had. It was the first place he'd visited where no-one he met on the street had any words of any language that he spoke, and he couldn't make head-nor-tail of any of the signage.
I must admit, I have limited knowledge of South American society and literature. I have a number of translated books, including a collection of short stories called Dark Water that are supposed to be a good introduction.
16veilofisis
(CAREFUL READER, FER HERE THAR BE SPOILERS...)
As for the conversation about sex, I think the scene exists in the story for the same reason as the first few paragraphs' 'everyman' descriptions: to reinforce the absolute NON-Christ-like nature of Espinosa, which makes the climax the more unsettling. I don't think the crucifixion is punishment, after all. He's crucified to end the storm. The irreligious, 'simpler' country-folk are fascinated by the Gospel because it purports that the death of one man--a man that they see, for all his flaws, like wealthy and seemingly protective Espinosa--can save the whole of humanity. They ask him as much at the end, before reenacting the Gospel word for word: with jeers, spit, and the whole works. And they bless him first, which is most telling of their complex and certainly terrifying interpretation of the word of God. There's no deep allegory here, I don't think, but one can't avoid thinking Borges' opinion of religion was not exactly brimming with respect...
EDIT: I realize I mostly just summarized the ending here, but I wanted to make sure I covered everything...
As for the conversation about sex, I think the scene exists in the story for the same reason as the first few paragraphs' 'everyman' descriptions: to reinforce the absolute NON-Christ-like nature of Espinosa, which makes the climax the more unsettling. I don't think the crucifixion is punishment, after all. He's crucified to end the storm. The irreligious, 'simpler' country-folk are fascinated by the Gospel because it purports that the death of one man--a man that they see, for all his flaws, like wealthy and seemingly protective Espinosa--can save the whole of humanity. They ask him as much at the end, before reenacting the Gospel word for word: with jeers, spit, and the whole works. And they bless him first, which is most telling of their complex and certainly terrifying interpretation of the word of God. There's no deep allegory here, I don't think, but one can't avoid thinking Borges' opinion of religion was not exactly brimming with respect...
EDIT: I realize I mostly just summarized the ending here, but I wanted to make sure I covered everything...
17alaudacorax
I've just looked up Herbert Spencer on Wikipedia. The name was vaguely familiar but I'd completely forgotten whatever I might once have known about him. Of course, he was the chap who invented the phrase 'survival of the fittest' and there was all that controversy over 'social Darwinism'.
I suspect that, with the Gutres/Guthries (evolution in reverse?), Borges might be saying something about this stuff, but I'm really not sure what - another case where I'm suspecting that I may be missing something because of my lack of knowledge of South American intellectual life in Borges' times.
And then, looking him up on Wikipedia, Borges' work seems a pretty complicated subject in itself - and I'm feeling my almost total ignorance on him. I'm feeling rather ill-equipped for reading him ... (Wanders forlornly away to seek comfort in teapot.)
I suspect that, with the Gutres/Guthries (evolution in reverse?), Borges might be saying something about this stuff, but I'm really not sure what - another case where I'm suspecting that I may be missing something because of my lack of knowledge of South American intellectual life in Borges' times.
And then, looking him up on Wikipedia, Borges' work seems a pretty complicated subject in itself - and I'm feeling my almost total ignorance on him. I'm feeling rather ill-equipped for reading him ... (Wanders forlornly away to seek comfort in teapot.)
18pgmcc
During lunch I browsed a local bookshop and found two volumes of fiction by Borges. I was going to snatch them up but then noticed they were over 20 euros each. Shortly after my decision not to buy just at this moment I spotted another volume with "Borges" on the cover. It was only 8euro and I grabbed it only to find it was a biography. :-(
Rankamateur, perhaps the biography would have given you insight to the questions you ponder, but for me, forlorn or not, I find teapots more comforting than biographies.
(If you're interested, it was Borges: A life by Edwin Williamson.)
Rankamateur, perhaps the biography would have given you insight to the questions you ponder, but for me, forlorn or not, I find teapots more comforting than biographies.
(If you're interested, it was Borges: A life by Edwin Williamson.)
19veilofisis
Anybody still reading this? Dallas? Or are we ready for something else? Don't anybody feel rushed! :)
20alaudacorax
I'm easy.
I had been intending to have another 'read-through and ponder', but I've been a bit tied-up with one thing and another, lately.
I have to admit it's not been a favourite of the stories we've read. I thought it a little brief and perfunctory - but, of course, I might have revised that opinion on a couple more readings.
I had been intending to have another 'read-through and ponder', but I've been a bit tied-up with one thing and another, lately.
I have to admit it's not been a favourite of the stories we've read. I thought it a little brief and perfunctory - but, of course, I might have revised that opinion on a couple more readings.
21alaudacorax
My mind plays tricks on me, sometimes.
My use of 'favourite' in #20 got me pondering* which stories I've liked best, so far (I set aside the poems - loved them all, and all equally). Two spring immediately to mind. 'The Death of Halpern Frayser': there's no surprise there as I was very taken with it at the time.
But the other one is 'Canon Alberic's Scrapbook'. Now, this is quite weird as I was, as I remember, not too impressed with it; yet, whenever I think of this series of threads, it jumps out on me - in my mind's eye I immediately see the various settings.
*Lovely word that - it's tailor-made for what my mind's doing when I'm sitting fishing a pond ('pond'/'pondering' - geddit? - stop rambling, idiot).
My use of 'favourite' in #20 got me pondering* which stories I've liked best, so far (I set aside the poems - loved them all, and all equally). Two spring immediately to mind. 'The Death of Halpern Frayser': there's no surprise there as I was very taken with it at the time.
But the other one is 'Canon Alberic's Scrapbook'. Now, this is quite weird as I was, as I remember, not too impressed with it; yet, whenever I think of this series of threads, it jumps out on me - in my mind's eye I immediately see the various settings.
*Lovely word that - it's tailor-made for what my mind's doing when I'm sitting fishing a pond ('pond'/'pondering' - geddit? - stop rambling, idiot).
22veilofisis
Hey, 'Canon Alberic's Scrapbook'?! I knew I'd make a James fan out of you! :D
'The Death of Halpin Frayser' is definitely at the top for me. One of the best discussions I've ever had. 'The Listener' is still my favorite story of all time, though, so I'll leave that one out of the running due to bias. :)
'The Death of Halpin Frayser' is definitely at the top for me. One of the best discussions I've ever had. 'The Listener' is still my favorite story of all time, though, so I'll leave that one out of the running due to bias. :)
23brother_salvatore
>19 veilofisis: Unfortunatly I've been out of town for the last several days, so I haven't got to read it yet, let alone keep up with LT. But feel free to move to something new. I'll catch up in the next couple days.
25veilofisis
Oh my, I suppose we had better do something of his for our next read!
26veilofisis
Alrighty, so for our next read, we're going to do some more M. R. James, since he will be turning 149 this Monday. :)
I've narrowed it down to:
'The Mezzotint'
'Casting the Runes'
'Rats'
'Rats' is one of my all-time favorites, but not exactly a super 'James-y' story. 'Casting the Runes' is one of his best and most anthologized. 'The Mezzotint' is genuinely creepy, like 'Casting the Runes,' and another of my favorites.
Anything any of you would particularly like to read?
I've narrowed it down to:
'The Mezzotint'
'Casting the Runes'
'Rats'
'Rats' is one of my all-time favorites, but not exactly a super 'James-y' story. 'Casting the Runes' is one of his best and most anthologized. 'The Mezzotint' is genuinely creepy, like 'Casting the Runes,' and another of my favorites.
Anything any of you would particularly like to read?
27pgmcc
I'm happy to go along with any of the three stories listed. Of the three listed I can't remember much about 'Rats' but I remember liking 'The Mezzotint' a lot.
On a "catch-up" note, I read 'The Death of Halpern Frayser' and liked it a lot. It's the first Bierce I've read and it has managed to shift my Bierce books higher up the TBR pile.
Of course, having read the thread about the story I now realise I have to read it again and again.
The four things that struck me about the story before reading the views on the thread were:
- Terror/Horror coming from the last place one would expect it, i.e. "Mother"
- Revenge by the mother on the son appeared to be more like the revenge of a spurned lover, and yes, the mother son relationship was obviously too close for polite company (I wonder how that went down with society when the story was first released)
- The appearance of what appeared to be a zombie
- The fact that the people discovering the scene, albeit in daylight, appear to be about to experience the same fate
Excellently executed (the story) and very enjoyable.
On a "catch-up" note, I read 'The Death of Halpern Frayser' and liked it a lot. It's the first Bierce I've read and it has managed to shift my Bierce books higher up the TBR pile.
Of course, having read the thread about the story I now realise I have to read it again and again.
The four things that struck me about the story before reading the views on the thread were:
- Terror/Horror coming from the last place one would expect it, i.e. "Mother"
- Revenge by the mother on the son appeared to be more like the revenge of a spurned lover, and yes, the mother son relationship was obviously too close for polite company (I wonder how that went down with society when the story was first released)
- The appearance of what appeared to be a zombie
- The fact that the people discovering the scene, albeit in daylight, appear to be about to experience the same fate
Excellently executed (the story) and very enjoyable.
28veilofisis
'The Death of Halpin Frayser' is one of my all-time favorites. It might even be time to revive that thread, haha...
Let's make it a triple whammy and just do a selection, then, for James' birthday. Nobody need feel as if they have to read all three, though I'm sure a few of us will. That sounds like fun.
So it's 'Rats,' 'The Mezzotint,' and 'Casting the Runes.' New thread is now up, friends. :)
Let's make it a triple whammy and just do a selection, then, for James' birthday. Nobody need feel as if they have to read all three, though I'm sure a few of us will. That sounds like fun.
So it's 'Rats,' 'The Mezzotint,' and 'Casting the Runes.' New thread is now up, friends. :)
29brother_salvatore
Finally got around to reading the Borges story. I like it. It seems though to be told very compactly, not spending too much time on delving too far beyond the surface, leaving much to the reader's imagination. Even when the girl spends the night, it's not explicitly said what happened exactly (at least in the translation I read), but left slightly ambigious from a reader's perspective. But not so ambigious from the Guthres perspective, of course. Not sure what to make of it.
The story reminds me of Shirley Jackson a little bit, probably 'cause it has a Lottery-esqe ending.
Found an interesting audio of Paul Theroux reading and talking about the story.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/10/15/071015on_audio_theroux
It's a good story. Powerful in it's deftness. One I'll have to read several times again before I have any interesting thought about it.
The story reminds me of Shirley Jackson a little bit, probably 'cause it has a Lottery-esqe ending.
Found an interesting audio of Paul Theroux reading and talking about the story.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/2007/10/15/071015on_audio_theroux
It's a good story. Powerful in it's deftness. One I'll have to read several times again before I have any interesting thought about it.
30brother_salvatore
Happy Birthday Borges! Google has a nice little homage on their homepage.
