2John5918
Nothing new there. Out here on the periphery I've heard Muslim leaders encouraging Christians to be more faithful Christians and Christian leaders encouraging Muslims to be more faithful Muslims, going back at least a quarter of a century.
3Diamondhead
Since Im new here, I dont know how much was there a debate on Pachamama, but Malachy Martin actually warned on mother earth being worshiped in 1997. He claims it is Gorbachov himself behind it, who was moved to much powerful position after dissolution of SSSR. They created new religion, and are slowly imposing it...
4John5918
>3 Diamondhead:
Sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. What is this new religion that Gorbachev started? How is it being "imposed"?
There has been a bit of a debate (or rather some sniping from a single poster) on LT about Pachamama. A lot of it comes down to a failure by some Christians in Europe and north America to recognise that the Christian churches which we know and love contain a lot of accretions from European history and culture, which is fine in itself as long as we don't try to impose it on everybody else. Now that the majority of Christians and the most vibrant expanding churches are in the Global South, we need to recognise that European culture is not the only lens through which to view Christianity. In the Catholic Church we speak of inculturation and incarnation into non-western cultures; other denominations may have different terms to describe it, but it's a recognition that just as Christianity in the west validly developed according to European culture and mentality, it is also valid for Christianity in non-western cultures to develop in ways which are meaningful for those cultures. Unity in diversity rather than uniformity.
It is being driven not by shadowy international conspiracies, nor by dead communist leaders, but by committed and thoughtful Christians who understand their own cultures. I'm most familiar with African Catholic theologians such as Fr Agbonkhianmeghe Orobator, Fr Stan Chu Ilo, and the late Fr Laurenti Magesa. Pope John Paul II and his successors have endorsed the Zaire Rite, an African adaptation of the mass, but inculturation goes deeper than just the liturgy. The current Synod on Synodality consultation process which is ongoing in the Catholic Church has been hailed by many Catholics in Africa as being compatible with ubuntu, palaver, barasa, ujamaa and other traditional African practices. African protestant theologians would include Professor Jesse Mugambi and the late Rev John Mbiti. Chinua Achebe's famous novel Things Fall Apart has also provided inspiration and impetus. The same dynamic can be found in all continents. Pope Francis himself is Argentinian so he understands the meaning of Pachamama and its significance for South American Christians far better than north Americans who may wish to use it as a polemical tool.
Edited to add: Many western Christians also forget that we've actually had inculturation since the earliest days of the Church. There's a thread about it on the Catholic Tradition group (link) where I've referred to some of the early sources. But perhaps the most obvious modern example of ancient inculturation is the eastern churches such as the Orthodox Church and Eastern Rite Catholics. They began developing differently from the Roman/Latin church at a very early stage. This culminated in the Great Schism of 1054 when the western and eastern churches went their separate ways, and the eastern churches continued to develop independently of the Roman Catholic and later western protestant churches; indeed western protestantism could be said to be inculturated as it grew during the European period of enlightenment, the "Age of Reason", and incorporated a lot of values from that period. African, Asian and Latin American churches came much later to the concept as they had been subjugated by western colonial powers and western Christianity, but now, belatedly, they have joined the pilgrimage. Thanks be to God!
Sounds to me like a conspiracy theory. What is this new religion that Gorbachev started? How is it being "imposed"?
There has been a bit of a debate (or rather some sniping from a single poster) on LT about Pachamama. A lot of it comes down to a failure by some Christians in Europe and north America to recognise that the Christian churches which we know and love contain a lot of accretions from European history and culture, which is fine in itself as long as we don't try to impose it on everybody else. Now that the majority of Christians and the most vibrant expanding churches are in the Global South, we need to recognise that European culture is not the only lens through which to view Christianity. In the Catholic Church we speak of inculturation and incarnation into non-western cultures; other denominations may have different terms to describe it, but it's a recognition that just as Christianity in the west validly developed according to European culture and mentality, it is also valid for Christianity in non-western cultures to develop in ways which are meaningful for those cultures. Unity in diversity rather than uniformity.
It is being driven not by shadowy international conspiracies, nor by dead communist leaders, but by committed and thoughtful Christians who understand their own cultures. I'm most familiar with African Catholic theologians such as Fr Agbonkhianmeghe Orobator, Fr Stan Chu Ilo, and the late Fr Laurenti Magesa. Pope John Paul II and his successors have endorsed the Zaire Rite, an African adaptation of the mass, but inculturation goes deeper than just the liturgy. The current Synod on Synodality consultation process which is ongoing in the Catholic Church has been hailed by many Catholics in Africa as being compatible with ubuntu, palaver, barasa, ujamaa and other traditional African practices. African protestant theologians would include Professor Jesse Mugambi and the late Rev John Mbiti. Chinua Achebe's famous novel Things Fall Apart has also provided inspiration and impetus. The same dynamic can be found in all continents. Pope Francis himself is Argentinian so he understands the meaning of Pachamama and its significance for South American Christians far better than north Americans who may wish to use it as a polemical tool.
Edited to add: Many western Christians also forget that we've actually had inculturation since the earliest days of the Church. There's a thread about it on the Catholic Tradition group (link) where I've referred to some of the early sources. But perhaps the most obvious modern example of ancient inculturation is the eastern churches such as the Orthodox Church and Eastern Rite Catholics. They began developing differently from the Roman/Latin church at a very early stage. This culminated in the Great Schism of 1054 when the western and eastern churches went their separate ways, and the eastern churches continued to develop independently of the Roman Catholic and later western protestant churches; indeed western protestantism could be said to be inculturated as it grew during the European period of enlightenment, the "Age of Reason", and incorporated a lot of values from that period. African, Asian and Latin American churches came much later to the concept as they had been subjugated by western colonial powers and western Christianity, but now, belatedly, they have joined the pilgrimage. Thanks be to God!
6John5918
>5 brone:
Yes, let's have a peek at the liturgy of the Church. I've seen altars of all shapes and sizes in churches and chapels. I believe you and I once agreed that a military chaplain could celebrate mass on the bonnet of a jeep, and I've seen missionary priests deep in the bush in a war zone celebrating mass under very difficult circumstances wherever they could. Altars are decorated with flowers and candles, and in the middle are images of Jesus and sometimes Mary, as well as the bread and wine. Anglican churches in England have Harvest Festival when the altar and sanctuary are decorated with the fruits of the earth, and in Catholic churches in Africa the offertory collection is often in kind rather than cash, so fruits, vegetables, eggs and even livestock are brought to the altar. Men in long white dresses circle around with a burning "cup" of incense. Similarly dressed men, boys or girls shake little bells. People are playing various musical instruments, including a bizarre one where a mechanical pump blows into a huge array of pipes. People are calling upon their ancestors, the saints. Doesn't sound too different from the Mayan mass that you're describing.
Yes, let's have a peek at the liturgy of the Church. I've seen altars of all shapes and sizes in churches and chapels. I believe you and I once agreed that a military chaplain could celebrate mass on the bonnet of a jeep, and I've seen missionary priests deep in the bush in a war zone celebrating mass under very difficult circumstances wherever they could. Altars are decorated with flowers and candles, and in the middle are images of Jesus and sometimes Mary, as well as the bread and wine. Anglican churches in England have Harvest Festival when the altar and sanctuary are decorated with the fruits of the earth, and in Catholic churches in Africa the offertory collection is often in kind rather than cash, so fruits, vegetables, eggs and even livestock are brought to the altar. Men in long white dresses circle around with a burning "cup" of incense. Similarly dressed men, boys or girls shake little bells. People are playing various musical instruments, including a bizarre one where a mechanical pump blows into a huge array of pipes. People are calling upon their ancestors, the saints. Doesn't sound too different from the Mayan mass that you're describing.
8John5918
>7 brone:
With all due respect, you once again show your ignorance of what ecumenism is. It's dialogue and collaboration between Christian denominations, nothing to do with agnosticism, DEI (whatever that is), gnosticism, demiurges, or heresy. And of course everything to do with Jesus' own plea that his followers might be united.
With all due respect, you once again show your ignorance of what ecumenism is. It's dialogue and collaboration between Christian denominations, nothing to do with agnosticism, DEI (whatever that is), gnosticism, demiurges, or heresy. And of course everything to do with Jesus' own plea that his followers might be united.
10John5918
>9 brone:
Can you cite a source for any of this? It's too rambling to be able to google.
But what has it to do with ecumenism, as you claimed in >7 brone:?
what do us ignorant pew sitters who pay the bills know
Well, it's a good question. What do you, in the USA, know about the Church in the Amazon? What do Catholics in the Global North know about the Church in the Global South in general? What do people steeped in north American or European cultures know about African or Amazonian cultures? Call me old-fashioned, but I've always found it useful to try to understand something before making critical comments about it.
Can you cite a source for any of this? It's too rambling to be able to google.
But what has it to do with ecumenism, as you claimed in >7 brone:?
what do us ignorant pew sitters who pay the bills know
Well, it's a good question. What do you, in the USA, know about the Church in the Amazon? What do Catholics in the Global North know about the Church in the Global South in general? What do people steeped in north American or European cultures know about African or Amazonian cultures? Call me old-fashioned, but I've always found it useful to try to understand something before making critical comments about it.
11cpg
>10 John5918: "Can you cite a source for any of this?"
Probably https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A875-Jus.htm
Probably https://www.traditioninaction.org/RevolutionPhotos/A875-Jus.htm
13John5918
>12 brone:
If the one suggested by >11 cpg: is the only source, it is rather inadequate. A few carefully selected photos to match the dismissive innuendo in the text, a misleading headline, no real context, and no attempt to understand the context and culture.
What is a "marxist hug"? As far as I know, hugging is part of many cultures, including many western cultures.
I've had the privilege of meeting Emilce Cuda at a conference in Rome. I was impressed with her.
Liberation theology is not marxist, although there's no point in telling you that as you appear to use the term "marxist" as a pejorative against anyone and anything you disagree with, regardless of actual meanings and facts. Liberation theology is very biblical (especially Exodus and the prophets), builds on the teachings of Jesus, is rooted in Catholic Social Doctrine, reads the "signs of the times" (Gaudium et spes) and is both praxis and grassroots theology. You should appreciate the latter as you are always on about a so-called elite. Well, liberation theology was developed by and with the ordinary punters in the pews, people just like you and me except living their faith in a different set of circumstances.
I'd still be interested to hear from you why you keep typing the longer word "Bergoglio" instead of the more respectful, more correct, shorter and simpler "Francis".
If the one suggested by >11 cpg: is the only source, it is rather inadequate. A few carefully selected photos to match the dismissive innuendo in the text, a misleading headline, no real context, and no attempt to understand the context and culture.
What is a "marxist hug"? As far as I know, hugging is part of many cultures, including many western cultures.
I've had the privilege of meeting Emilce Cuda at a conference in Rome. I was impressed with her.
Liberation theology is not marxist, although there's no point in telling you that as you appear to use the term "marxist" as a pejorative against anyone and anything you disagree with, regardless of actual meanings and facts. Liberation theology is very biblical (especially Exodus and the prophets), builds on the teachings of Jesus, is rooted in Catholic Social Doctrine, reads the "signs of the times" (Gaudium et spes) and is both praxis and grassroots theology. You should appreciate the latter as you are always on about a so-called elite. Well, liberation theology was developed by and with the ordinary punters in the pews, people just like you and me except living their faith in a different set of circumstances.
I'd still be interested to hear from you why you keep typing the longer word "Bergoglio" instead of the more respectful, more correct, shorter and simpler "Francis".
15John5918
>14 brone: Outrages against Christ don’t come principally from blowing up churches but refashioning the exacting teaching... When Successors of the Apostles maintain a safe silence in the face of LGBTQ++++ propaganda, by permitting proclaimed pro abotion {sic} catholics to recieve {sic} communion
It's really telling that you have so little respect for your own sources that you are unwilling to give the authors nor websites credit for whatever they are publishing. Don't you think they deserve acknowledgement and visibility for their work? You're probably also denying them revenue which they need to keep their site running, as many websites receive income from advertisers for every click on their site.
It's also recognised practice to use quotation marks ("") when you give a direct quote. I've managed to find this one using google search here. Failure to do so lays you open to accusations of plagiarism.
It's really telling that you have so little respect for your own sources that you are unwilling to give the authors nor websites credit for whatever they are publishing. Don't you think they deserve acknowledgement and visibility for their work? You're probably also denying them revenue which they need to keep their site running, as many websites receive income from advertisers for every click on their site.
It's also recognised practice to use quotation marks ("") when you give a direct quote. I've managed to find this one using google search here. Failure to do so lays you open to accusations of plagiarism.
17John5918
>16 brone: the Marxist google site
Is Google Marxist? That's an interesting comment. Most of the complaints I read about Google are that it is capitalist, indeed very capitalist. It makes a lof of money out of using our data, and it pushes sites which pay it to the top of its search pages. As far as I can see it is a US multinational corporation that has made billionaires out of some of those involved with it, and it doesn't seem to like paying tax in some of the countries where it making profits. But of course you only use the word Marxist as an insult towards things you don't like, not with any actual meaning attached to the word.
Is Google Marxist? That's an interesting comment. Most of the complaints I read about Google are that it is capitalist, indeed very capitalist. It makes a lof of money out of using our data, and it pushes sites which pay it to the top of its search pages. As far as I can see it is a US multinational corporation that has made billionaires out of some of those involved with it, and it doesn't seem to like paying tax in some of the countries where it making profits. But of course you only use the word Marxist as an insult towards things you don't like, not with any actual meaning attached to the word.
20John5918
>19 brone:
Interesting that you post this in a thread entitled "Pagan Influence". The word pagan generally refers to religious beliefs other than those of the main or recognised religions. Hinduism is practiced by 1.2 billion people (almost as many as Catholicism), that's about 15% of the world's population, the third largest global religion after Christianity (~30%) and Islam (~23%), and is certainly the main recognised religion in India, so it seems rather bizarre to refer to it under the label "pagan" in a post about events in India.
hindu extremists
The clue is in the second word, "extremists". Christians are not being persecuted by Hindus, they are being persecuted by extremists. Sadly every religion, whether Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Judaism or whatever, has a small percentage of extremists who hate and attack others, just as every secular identity grouping, whether left, right, atheist, nationalist, ethnic or whatever, also has extremists. Fortunately the vast majority of people in all these groups are not extremists and seek to get on well with their neighbours, to live and let live, and it's both lazy and dangerous to characterise whole groups negatively based on the actions of extremists. Each religious grouping, fortunately, also contains a lot of people who refuse to collude with the extremists within their own religion, and who challenge it - "not in our name"! I find it sad when Christian extremists fan the flames of conflicts by ridiculing that quiet majority who try to live peacefully with their neighbours as Christ demanded, which is one of the reasons I bother to respond to your hateful rants even though I know you are not listening. If I didn't, I would be guilty of colluding with your extremism.
Interesting that you post this in a thread entitled "Pagan Influence". The word pagan generally refers to religious beliefs other than those of the main or recognised religions. Hinduism is practiced by 1.2 billion people (almost as many as Catholicism), that's about 15% of the world's population, the third largest global religion after Christianity (~30%) and Islam (~23%), and is certainly the main recognised religion in India, so it seems rather bizarre to refer to it under the label "pagan" in a post about events in India.
hindu extremists
The clue is in the second word, "extremists". Christians are not being persecuted by Hindus, they are being persecuted by extremists. Sadly every religion, whether Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism, Judaism or whatever, has a small percentage of extremists who hate and attack others, just as every secular identity grouping, whether left, right, atheist, nationalist, ethnic or whatever, also has extremists. Fortunately the vast majority of people in all these groups are not extremists and seek to get on well with their neighbours, to live and let live, and it's both lazy and dangerous to characterise whole groups negatively based on the actions of extremists. Each religious grouping, fortunately, also contains a lot of people who refuse to collude with the extremists within their own religion, and who challenge it - "not in our name"! I find it sad when Christian extremists fan the flames of conflicts by ridiculing that quiet majority who try to live peacefully with their neighbours as Christ demanded, which is one of the reasons I bother to respond to your hateful rants even though I know you are not listening. If I didn't, I would be guilty of colluding with your extremism.
24John5918
>23 brone: those of us who still retain fidelity to the papacy
Given how dismissive, derisory, disrespectful and downright hostile you are to the pope, can you honestly type those words with a straight face?
Given how dismissive, derisory, disrespectful and downright hostile you are to the pope, can you honestly type those words with a straight face?
26John5918
>25 brone: people who still worship wood, animals, stars, cows. crocodiles
Actually, people don't "worship" these things. You're spreading the same sort of misinformation which allows many protestants to think that we Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints. We, like all of them, worship God.
we dance with them
You are completely ignoring posts by me and others which have pointed out that the dance to which you are referring is an Indian dance, not a Hindu dance. Is the US national anthem ever sung in a Catholic school? Do US Catholic high schools ever have graduation dances in which western-style music is played and western-style dancing is done? Is the US flag ever displayed at a Catholic school? Are baseball and American football played in US Catholic schools? Do US Catholic baseball teams' games have tailgate parties? Are Independence Day and Thanksgiving celebrated in US Catholic parishes? Do US Catholic parishes have potluck dinners (often including mom's apple pie)? Are the hymns sung in US Catholic churches composed and written by westerners? Shock, horror - the Catholic church in the USA is inculturated into the US/western culture! Why shouldn't the Catholic church in India or anywhere else also be inculturated into the local culture? Perhaps only because there are some who still have a colonial superiority mentality (see below) and assume that western culture is normative and everything else is "pagan"?
I think the Brits used to call it "going native"
Yes, they did use that term, although probably not exactly in this context. A colonial mentality which one would have hoped had long been abandoned.
Actually, people don't "worship" these things. You're spreading the same sort of misinformation which allows many protestants to think that we Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints. We, like all of them, worship God.
we dance with them
You are completely ignoring posts by me and others which have pointed out that the dance to which you are referring is an Indian dance, not a Hindu dance. Is the US national anthem ever sung in a Catholic school? Do US Catholic high schools ever have graduation dances in which western-style music is played and western-style dancing is done? Is the US flag ever displayed at a Catholic school? Are baseball and American football played in US Catholic schools? Do US Catholic baseball teams' games have tailgate parties? Are Independence Day and Thanksgiving celebrated in US Catholic parishes? Do US Catholic parishes have potluck dinners (often including mom's apple pie)? Are the hymns sung in US Catholic churches composed and written by westerners? Shock, horror - the Catholic church in the USA is inculturated into the US/western culture! Why shouldn't the Catholic church in India or anywhere else also be inculturated into the local culture? Perhaps only because there are some who still have a colonial superiority mentality (see below) and assume that western culture is normative and everything else is "pagan"?
I think the Brits used to call it "going native"
Yes, they did use that term, although probably not exactly in this context. A colonial mentality which one would have hoped had long been abandoned.
27MarthaJeanne
I bet those American Catholic schools even put up trees in December, to worship the sun god. In fact maybe even some US Cathollic churches do, too.
The first year we lived in India, my family made a jack-a-lantern at Halloween, as that was part of our normal celebration of my birthday. The local people were amazed that the sahib himself went with the children to pick a pumpkin. This must be something important. Then he made an image out of it and offered a candle to it. Silly Sahib! You don't make gods out of pumpkins! That is a waste of good food, and it spoils soon. If you just want a temporary image, clay is much better.
I have never carved a pumpkin since. My husband and our boys did a few times, and I didn't have a problem with that, but they had to do it without me.
The first year we lived in India, my family made a jack-a-lantern at Halloween, as that was part of our normal celebration of my birthday. The local people were amazed that the sahib himself went with the children to pick a pumpkin. This must be something important. Then he made an image out of it and offered a candle to it. Silly Sahib! You don't make gods out of pumpkins! That is a waste of good food, and it spoils soon. If you just want a temporary image, clay is much better.
I have never carved a pumpkin since. My husband and our boys did a few times, and I didn't have a problem with that, but they had to do it without me.
28John5918
>27 MarthaJeanne:I bet those American Catholic schools even put up trees in December, to worship the sun god. In fact maybe even some US Cathollic churches do, too.
And the Vatican! I saw it with my own eyes last Christmas!
Christmas is an excellent example of inculturation. Western Christianity took an existing non-Christian ("pagan") feast and Christianised it. The sun god was Roman, if I recall correctly, but some of the later accretions such as the tree were Germanic. I believe the traditional Germanic winter feast of Yule was also absorbed into Christmas, but is still celebrated separately by German neo-pagans .
You don't make gods out of pumpkins!
Silly American pagans! And they still do that every year before the Feast of All Saints (also known as Hallowmas or All Hallows' Day, its eve being Hallowe'en)!
And the Vatican! I saw it with my own eyes last Christmas!
Christmas is an excellent example of inculturation. Western Christianity took an existing non-Christian ("pagan") feast and Christianised it. The sun god was Roman, if I recall correctly, but some of the later accretions such as the tree were Germanic. I believe the traditional Germanic winter feast of Yule was also absorbed into Christmas, but is still celebrated separately by German neo-pagans .
You don't make gods out of pumpkins!
Silly American pagans! And they still do that every year before the Feast of All Saints (also known as Hallowmas or All Hallows' Day, its eve being Hallowe'en)!
29MsMixte
>27 MarthaJeanne: At least where I live (semi-rural area in Washington State), pumpkins are recycled through goats. Christmas trees are also beloved by goats as long as the trees do not have tinsel or artificial flocking.
30MarthaJeanne
The trees at Schönbrunn go to the zoo elephants. Household trees here in Vienna get burned for district heating, as they don't trust that all households will really clear all the tinsel etc. There aren't that many households in the city with access to goats.
32John5918
As usual, you omitted to quote a source for those words. They are from the Vatican's Message of the Dicastery for Interreligious Dialogue to Buddhists on the occasion of the Feast of Vesak 2023, 21.04.2023, signed by Miguel Ángel Cardinal Ayuso Guixot, MCCJ, the Prefect. As far as I can see there is no mention of the Holy Father and no pictures, and it was not addressed to "the head Buddha" (indeed I don't think Buddhism has a "head").
In the interests of full disclosure, I knew the good cardinal many years ago when he spent twenty years as a humble missionary in Sudan and Egypt, not an easy ministry. He's an acknowledged expert on Islam.
In the interests of full disclosure, I knew the good cardinal many years ago when he spent twenty years as a humble missionary in Sudan and Egypt, not an easy ministry. He's an acknowledged expert on Islam.
33lilithcat
>32 John5918:
(indeed I don't think Buddhism has a "head"
The Dalai Lama is considered the head of one of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism. But, as with Christianity, there are many different sects of Buddhism.
(indeed I don't think Buddhism has a "head"
The Dalai Lama is considered the head of one of the schools of Tibetan Buddhism. But, as with Christianity, there are many different sects of Buddhism.
34John5918
Although this is a Christian, not simply a Catholic, group, nevertheless brone purports to be upholding Catholic teaching, so let me just quote from a few authoritative Catholic sources.
DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS NOSTRA AETATE PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON 28 OCTOBER 1965
"Just as interreligious dialogue is one element in the mission of the Church, the proclamation of God's saving work in Our Lord Jesus Christ is another... There can be no question of choosing one and ignoring or rejecting the other." Pope John Paul II, Insegnamenti 1987, X/1, pp. 1449-1452. Cf. Bulletin No. 66 (1987/3), pp. 223-225, quoted in DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION #6
REDEMPTORIS MISSIO On the permanent validity of the Church's missionary mandate, Pope John Paul II, 7 December 1990
"Interreligious and intercultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims cannot be reduced to an optional extra. It is in fact a vital necessity, on which in large measure our future depends". Pope Benedict XVI, 20th World Youth Day in Cologne, 18-21 August 2005
DECLARATION ON THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS NOSTRA AETATE PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS POPE PAUL VI ON 28 OCTOBER 1965
The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men {sic}. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ "the way, the truth, and the life" (John 14:6), in whom men {sic} may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself. (#2)
"Just as interreligious dialogue is one element in the mission of the Church, the proclamation of God's saving work in Our Lord Jesus Christ is another... There can be no question of choosing one and ignoring or rejecting the other." Pope John Paul II, Insegnamenti 1987, X/1, pp. 1449-1452. Cf. Bulletin No. 66 (1987/3), pp. 223-225, quoted in DIALOGUE AND PROCLAMATION #6
REDEMPTORIS MISSIO On the permanent validity of the Church's missionary mandate, Pope John Paul II, 7 December 1990
Inter-religious dialogue is a part of the Church's evangelizing mission. Understood as a method and means of mutual knowledge and enrichment, dialogue is not in opposition to the mission ad gentes... Dialogue does not originate from tactical concerns or self-interest, but is an activity with its own guiding principles, requirements and dignity. It is demanded by deep respect for everything that has been brought about in human beings by the Spirit who blows where he wills. Through dialogue, the Church seeks to uncover the "seeds of the Word," a "ray of that truth which enlightens all men {sic}''; these are found in individuals and in the religious traditions of mankind {sic}. Dialogue is based on hope and love, and will bear fruit in the Spirit. Other religions constitute a positive challenge for the Church: they stimulate her both to discover and acknowledge the signs of Christ's presence and of the working of the Spirit, as well as to examine more deeply her own identity and to bear witness to the fullness of Revelation which she has received for the good of all... Each member of the faithful and all Christian communities are called to practice dialogue, although not always to the same degree or in the same way. The contribution of the laity is indispensable in this area... Dialogue is a path toward the kingdom and will certainly bear fruit, even if the times and seasons are known only to the Father (cf. Acts 1:7). (## 55-57)
"Interreligious and intercultural dialogue between Christians and Muslims cannot be reduced to an optional extra. It is in fact a vital necessity, on which in large measure our future depends". Pope Benedict XVI, 20th World Youth Day in Cologne, 18-21 August 2005
35MarthaJeanne
I think Christians would expect that officials of other religions treat Christianity with respect, and this will only happen if those speaking for Christianity treat their religions with respect.
37John5918
>36 brone:
That seems rather a sarcastic and vacuous response to a post outlining some Catholic doctrine. Do you have anything substantive to add to the conversation? It would be nice to have a real conversation, as inter-faith dialogue is a fascinating and important topic.
That seems rather a sarcastic and vacuous response to a post outlining some Catholic doctrine. Do you have anything substantive to add to the conversation? It would be nice to have a real conversation, as inter-faith dialogue is a fascinating and important topic.
38John5918
I just came across this article this morning, not completely on topic but an example of the misunderstandings that can come about if we don't respect and understand other faiths and cultures. I wonder how we would feel if Christianity were to be judged solely by the actions of a few Catholic and Protestant "terrorists" in Northern Ireland, or Judaism solely by the actions of extremists in modern day Israel, or Buddhism solely by the treatment of the Rohingya in Myanmar? Or if, as a Catholic with Irish ancestry, I were expected to begin every conversation by renouncing the "terrorist acts" of some Northern Irish Republicans. It's all too easy (and lazy?) to fail to distinguish between a religion and the political ideologies which co-opt or hijack it.
UK politicians stigmatising Muslims over Islamist terrorism, report finds (Guardian)
UK politicians stigmatising Muslims over Islamist terrorism, report finds (Guardian)
Senior politicians must stop stigmatising Muslims by making them feel responsible for Islamist terrorism, according to a report that aims to reset the government’s approach to dealing with religious groups. Muslims are being marginalised in a number of areas of British life, according to the report by the government’s faith adviser, Colin Bloom, including by being made to feel they frequently have to renounce terrorist acts...
40John5918
>39 brone:
Just a few comments. Firstly, it is not "inter-faith", it is ecumenical.
Secondly, it is not unusual for Christian denominations to use each other's churches. I don't know the details of the "miscommunication", but in principle there should be no objection to other Christians holding a service in a Catholic church. It is not unusual, and it is certainly not a "scandal" for most Christians, including most Catholics, although the historically Catholic countries of southern Europe tend to be less familiar with ecumenism than say northern Europe or Africa simply because they have had less contact with protestants.
Finally, I'm wondering what Marxists have to do with a Christian prayer service. They tend to be atheists, you know.
Just a few comments. Firstly, it is not "inter-faith", it is ecumenical.
Secondly, it is not unusual for Christian denominations to use each other's churches. I don't know the details of the "miscommunication", but in principle there should be no objection to other Christians holding a service in a Catholic church. It is not unusual, and it is certainly not a "scandal" for most Christians, including most Catholics, although the historically Catholic countries of southern Europe tend to be less familiar with ecumenism than say northern Europe or Africa simply because they have had less contact with protestants.
Finally, I'm wondering what Marxists have to do with a Christian prayer service. They tend to be atheists, you know.
42John5918
>41 brone: Today the popular belief is "what we believe in common unites us" fails to mention the implication that there are somethings that do not unite us, this failure could lead to indifferentism
Is that what you believe? Did you not read any of the Church doctrine posted in >34 John5918:?
Is that what you believe? Did you not read any of the Church doctrine posted in >34 John5918:?
45cjbanning
>44 brone: I agree that paganism "has been called many things"--mostly by the uninformed. Gnosticism, for example, is a Christian heresy, which is about as far from actual paganism as it is possible to get. It seems to me that you want to dump heresy, non-Christian belief, and belief which is adiaphora but ultimately incorrect all in the same pot, which only creates confusion, because the epistemology behind each type of false belief--that is, how we know that it is false (if we even do know for sure that it is false), and how we communicate to others the knowledge that it is false--is very, very different. Lumping different types of theological falsehoods and inaccuracies under the same label obscures more than it illumines.
47John5918
>46 brone: It doesn't matter what people believe it only matters what people believe to be true
A quote like that really needs to be read in its original context. If he made that statement in general terms, then it can certainly be questioned. But if he's simply saying that people's perception of the truth is what drives them, and thus that is what we need to influence if we wish to change their perceptions and actions regarding the environment or anything else, then it's a true and uncontroversial statement.
A quote like that really needs to be read in its original context. If he made that statement in general terms, then it can certainly be questioned. But if he's simply saying that people's perception of the truth is what drives them, and thus that is what we need to influence if we wish to change their perceptions and actions regarding the environment or anything else, then it's a true and uncontroversial statement.
48John5918
>46 brone: The efficacy of the solutions its god (technology) presents
I would have thought quite the opposite. Much of the discourse on the climate crisis suggests that technology alone is not a solution. What is needed is a change of attitude, a change of culture, a change of individual and societal behaviour. Pope Francis has made a great contribution to the conversation with his encyclical Laudato si' which addresses these broader non-technological issues.
Edited to add: Actually I think Pope Francis addresses a lot of your concerns about the dominant modern cultures and societies, and I am a little surprised that you don't find more common ground with his efforts to present Christian solutions to some of the problems.
I would have thought quite the opposite. Much of the discourse on the climate crisis suggests that technology alone is not a solution. What is needed is a change of attitude, a change of culture, a change of individual and societal behaviour. Pope Francis has made a great contribution to the conversation with his encyclical Laudato si' which addresses these broader non-technological issues.
Edited to add: Actually I think Pope Francis addresses a lot of your concerns about the dominant modern cultures and societies, and I am a little surprised that you don't find more common ground with his efforts to present Christian solutions to some of the problems.
49John5918
An interesting if slightly populist contribution from BBC.
BBC News: The Satanic Temple: Think you know about Satanists? Maybe you don't
BBC News: The Satanic Temple: Think you know about Satanists? Maybe you don't
51John5918
>50 brone:
I would have thought that unfettered free market capitalism, extreme right wing ideology, modern neo-Nazism and fascism, white supremacism, racism, so-called "Christian nationalism", war, militarism, nuclear weapons, widespread ownership of small arms and light weapons, anti-democratic tendencies, xenophobia, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, lack of respect for the human dignity of any individual or group of human beings, extractive industries and their associated exploitation of people, and lack of care for God's creation of the natural environment are all far more "Atheist Materialist" than green socialism. The latter is actually very much in tune with Catholic doctrine, which includes both care for creation and the common good.
I would have thought that unfettered free market capitalism, extreme right wing ideology, modern neo-Nazism and fascism, white supremacism, racism, so-called "Christian nationalism", war, militarism, nuclear weapons, widespread ownership of small arms and light weapons, anti-democratic tendencies, xenophobia, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, lack of respect for the human dignity of any individual or group of human beings, extractive industries and their associated exploitation of people, and lack of care for God's creation of the natural environment are all far more "Atheist Materialist" than green socialism. The latter is actually very much in tune with Catholic doctrine, which includes both care for creation and the common good.
53John5918
>52 brone: the infamous Black Rock Group
Infamous? Hm. I'd never heard of them. There are a lot of confusing references online to Black Rock Group, including that it is a right wing political strategy group and a donor to right wing causes. That's why it's useful to cite a source so that we can all see what it is we are actually talking about and that we are talking about the same thing. I can't find a reference to Bill Gates, although apparently he did buy in to Blackstone (not Black Rock) two years ago. It would be nice if you could give us some actual information about these nefarious organisations and people that you mention so that we can all join in the conversation.
Last time I looked neither Bill Gates nor George Soros had been canonised. I'd never heard of Maggie Sanger but when I looked her up I found a Margaret Sanger, a US nurse who died nearly fifty years ago and who was a lifelong opponent of abortion. Is she the one? She doesn't seem to be referred to as "Maggie". I don't really know if there are any "Progressive marxists in the secular world", as I think most progressive left of centre thinkers have moved beyond "pure" Marxism and have built on it a more nuanced understanding of the modern world, but I certainly don't think you'll find many in Rome. Although the Vatican is conservative by nature, nevertheless you will find many who disagree with your rather extreme political, social and religious views. But Marxists? No.
Infamous? Hm. I'd never heard of them. There are a lot of confusing references online to Black Rock Group, including that it is a right wing political strategy group and a donor to right wing causes. That's why it's useful to cite a source so that we can all see what it is we are actually talking about and that we are talking about the same thing. I can't find a reference to Bill Gates, although apparently he did buy in to Blackstone (not Black Rock) two years ago. It would be nice if you could give us some actual information about these nefarious organisations and people that you mention so that we can all join in the conversation.
Last time I looked neither Bill Gates nor George Soros had been canonised. I'd never heard of Maggie Sanger but when I looked her up I found a Margaret Sanger, a US nurse who died nearly fifty years ago and who was a lifelong opponent of abortion. Is she the one? She doesn't seem to be referred to as "Maggie". I don't really know if there are any "Progressive marxists in the secular world", as I think most progressive left of centre thinkers have moved beyond "pure" Marxism and have built on it a more nuanced understanding of the modern world, but I certainly don't think you'll find many in Rome. Although the Vatican is conservative by nature, nevertheless you will find many who disagree with your rather extreme political, social and religious views. But Marxists? No.
55John5918
>54 brone:
Yes, you keep making vague references to these "lies" and "the truth", but you're very coy about giving us any factual information, and if anyone tries actually discussing them with you, you refuse to engage. Not the most productive strategy for promoting and publicising "the truth".
Yes, you keep making vague references to these "lies" and "the truth", but you're very coy about giving us any factual information, and if anyone tries actually discussing them with you, you refuse to engage. Not the most productive strategy for promoting and publicising "the truth".
56sqdancer
>53 John5918:
this might explain the depopolation part of brone's post about Gates
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-bill-gates-population-article-095694820460
this might explain the depopolation part of brone's post about Gates
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-bill-gates-population-article-095694820460
57John5918
>56 sqdancer:
Thank you very much. That explains it. More of the "fake news" which brone rails against but actually promotes and propagates.
Thank you very much. That explains it. More of the "fake news" which brone rails against but actually promotes and propagates.
59John5918
>58 brone: "what we now call the Catholic religion existed among the ancients, as was from the beginning of the human race, until Christ himself came in the flesh; from which time the already existing true religion began to be styled Christian"
As usual you omitted the source of your quote. This is from here.
It surprises me that you choose to post this quote, since on the one hand you are so dismissive of other religions and yet here you recognise them as the "existing true religion" which later came "to be styled Christian". Or, as we learn from St Paul in Acts 17:23, "I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you." While you may be sad that they have not yet come "to be styled Christian", the "already existing religion" cannot be called both demonic and true at the same time. And incidentally, other "already existing religions" predate and have nothing to with Marxism.
As usual you omitted the source of your quote. This is from here.
It surprises me that you choose to post this quote, since on the one hand you are so dismissive of other religions and yet here you recognise them as the "existing true religion" which later came "to be styled Christian". Or, as we learn from St Paul in Acts 17:23, "I noticed among other things an altar inscribed: To An Unknown God. In fact, the unknown God you revere is the one I proclaim to you." While you may be sad that they have not yet come "to be styled Christian", the "already existing religion" cannot be called both demonic and true at the same time. And incidentally, other "already existing religions" predate and have nothing to with Marxism.
60MarthaJeanne
Perhaps Marxism was also pre-existant and true.
63John5918
>62 brone:
You omitted to mention where you got most of this text from. I believe it's a 2014 interview with Bishop Athanasius Schneider published by the schismatic Society of Saint Pius X here. He is known for dissenting from Church teaching.
the 25,000 walking 12 miles a day in France
Actually there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people walking more than 12 miles a day in France, Spain and Portugal on the Camino, the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela in Spain, not for political or ideological reasons, not as a campaign for anything nor in opposition to the Church, but as a genuine and humble spiritual journey which pilgrims have been doing for a thousand years. I've been a pilgrim on the Camino myself twice. I just got a WhatsApp from a South African priest friend who led a group from his parish, describing it as "very special". I concur. It is indeed very special.
You omitted to mention where you got most of this text from. I believe it's a 2014 interview with Bishop Athanasius Schneider published by the schismatic Society of Saint Pius X here. He is known for dissenting from Church teaching.
the 25,000 walking 12 miles a day in France
Actually there are tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of people walking more than 12 miles a day in France, Spain and Portugal on the Camino, the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela in Spain, not for political or ideological reasons, not as a campaign for anything nor in opposition to the Church, but as a genuine and humble spiritual journey which pilgrims have been doing for a thousand years. I've been a pilgrim on the Camino myself twice. I just got a WhatsApp from a South African priest friend who led a group from his parish, describing it as "very special". I concur. It is indeed very special.
64MarthaJeanne
Let's see. 12 miles is nearly 20 km. That's a good day's journey. There are so many pilgrimage routes in Europe. In Austria, besides the path to the Camino (with an information point near the cathedral in Vienna) there is a set of trails to Mariazell that are very popular.
But pilgrimage is nothing new or specifically Christian. Hinduism and Buddhism both have pilgrimage traditions that go back over 2000 years. Even the Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca has earlier roots.
But pilgrimage is nothing new or specifically Christian. Hinduism and Buddhism both have pilgrimage traditions that go back over 2000 years. Even the Islamic pilgrimage to Mecca has earlier roots.
65John5918
>64 MarthaJeanne:
Indeed. On the Camino many people were walking 30 or more kilometres a day, although I generally limited myself to around 20 to 25. I've also walked St Cuthbert's Way, an old pilgrimage route on the English-Scottish border which ends on Holy Island (Lindisfarne).
Just a few months ago a group of South Sudanese pilgrims, led by a bishop and a nun, walked 400 km to the capital city Juba for the ecumenical visit by the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Moderator of the Church of Scotland. A couple of decades ago there was a pilgrimage through Kenya and Uganda retracing the journey of the first Catholic missionaries who travelled on foot from Mombasa to the interior, many of whom died on the way. That one is around a thousand kilometres, closer to the distance of the Camino Frances, albeit without the albergues (pilgrims' hostels) and other facilities en route. I wasn't part of either of those, but I know many of the pilgrims who were.
I repeat that it is a "very special" experience heading off on such a pilgrimage, carrying all that you need for the journey on your back, completely separating yourself from your normal life, in a way surrendering control, for a period of prayer, meditation, searching, discernment, asceticism, or whatever other reason, religious or non-religious, has led you to it. I've also done long distance hikes, but being a pilgrim is different from being a hiker or a tourist. It's a humbling but gratifying experience, particularly the hospitality, comradeship and assistance you receive from people en route, both fellow pilgrims and the local population who, on the Camino, have a thousand year old tradition of welcoming pilgrims. Deo gratias!
The pilgrimage to Mecca is interesting. In Sudan there are communities who still speak a form of Hausa. They are the descendants of pilgrims who walked from west Africa to Mecca (more than 7,000 km) and never made it home again, settling in Sudan during their return journey.
Indeed. On the Camino many people were walking 30 or more kilometres a day, although I generally limited myself to around 20 to 25. I've also walked St Cuthbert's Way, an old pilgrimage route on the English-Scottish border which ends on Holy Island (Lindisfarne).
Just a few months ago a group of South Sudanese pilgrims, led by a bishop and a nun, walked 400 km to the capital city Juba for the ecumenical visit by the Pope, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Moderator of the Church of Scotland. A couple of decades ago there was a pilgrimage through Kenya and Uganda retracing the journey of the first Catholic missionaries who travelled on foot from Mombasa to the interior, many of whom died on the way. That one is around a thousand kilometres, closer to the distance of the Camino Frances, albeit without the albergues (pilgrims' hostels) and other facilities en route. I wasn't part of either of those, but I know many of the pilgrims who were.
I repeat that it is a "very special" experience heading off on such a pilgrimage, carrying all that you need for the journey on your back, completely separating yourself from your normal life, in a way surrendering control, for a period of prayer, meditation, searching, discernment, asceticism, or whatever other reason, religious or non-religious, has led you to it. I've also done long distance hikes, but being a pilgrim is different from being a hiker or a tourist. It's a humbling but gratifying experience, particularly the hospitality, comradeship and assistance you receive from people en route, both fellow pilgrims and the local population who, on the Camino, have a thousand year old tradition of welcoming pilgrims. Deo gratias!
The pilgrimage to Mecca is interesting. In Sudan there are communities who still speak a form of Hausa. They are the descendants of pilgrims who walked from west Africa to Mecca (more than 7,000 km) and never made it home again, settling in Sudan during their return journey.
67CobbsGhost
>65 John5918:
I read a bunch of comments above and I wanted to ask you, do you practice Christianity? Do you believe in Christ as Lord and Savior?
I read a bunch of comments above and I wanted to ask you, do you practice Christianity? Do you believe in Christ as Lord and Savior?
68John5918
>66 brone:
Although I suppose I'm towards the "progressive" side of the spectrum on most Christian issues, I don't recognise the caricature that you present here, at least not in the "progressive" Christians that I engage with. I wish you would stop calling everyone who disagrees with you, everyone who is to the left of Attila the Hun, to use a common idiom which probably slanders old Attila, a Marxist. It just makes you look bitter and uninformed.
Although I suppose I'm towards the "progressive" side of the spectrum on most Christian issues, I don't recognise the caricature that you present here, at least not in the "progressive" Christians that I engage with. I wish you would stop calling everyone who disagrees with you, everyone who is to the left of Attila the Hun, to use a common idiom which probably slanders old Attila, a Marxist. It just makes you look bitter and uninformed.
69John5918
>67 CobbsGhost:
Edited. I've deleted my original long post which I later realised was superfluous and open to misinterpretation. My apologies. The simple answer, of course, remains: yes and yes.
Edited. I've deleted my original long post which I later realised was superfluous and open to misinterpretation. My apologies. The simple answer, of course, remains: yes and yes.
71John5918
>70 brone: revert back to our roots
If you look carefully at the liturgical reform in the Catholic Church, you'll see that that is exactly what has happened, going back to the roots, the early liturgy, and removing many of the later accretions so that it may be "unencumbered by useless repetitions" (Sacrosanctum concilium 34). I believe Anglicans also looked back to the early liturgy for their own reforms, which is why the current Anglican and Catholic masses are so similar.
Africans of today as did the Europeans of old have adjusted their sector of Catholicism to the modern cultural currents of heathenism
I humbly beg to differ. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
If you look carefully at the liturgical reform in the Catholic Church, you'll see that that is exactly what has happened, going back to the roots, the early liturgy, and removing many of the later accretions so that it may be "unencumbered by useless repetitions" (Sacrosanctum concilium 34). I believe Anglicans also looked back to the early liturgy for their own reforms, which is why the current Anglican and Catholic masses are so similar.
Africans of today as did the Europeans of old have adjusted their sector of Catholicism to the modern cultural currents of heathenism
I humbly beg to differ. I don't think you know what you are talking about.
72CobbsGhost
>69 John5918:
You seemed very concerned with the world and very upset with certain individuals above. You know your heart better than I and it sounds like you're pleased with what you have done. Thanks for the reply.
You seemed very concerned with the world and very upset with certain individuals above. You know your heart better than I and it sounds like you're pleased with what you have done. Thanks for the reply.
73John5918
>72 CobbsGhost:
Thank you. Yes, I am concerned with the world in which we live. It's God's creation and our home. As a Catholic I follow Catholic Social Doctrine in that regard.
"Upset" might be too strong a word, but I find the disunity in and between our different Christian churches to be sad. There's no problem with being different, but there should be a sense of unity within that diversity, and vice versa. Much of my work has been ecumenical, and I have found that to be very fulfilling and fruitful.
As for "certain individuals", I will challenge people who insist that their particular brand of Christianity is the only true one and who use derogatory labels for any Christian who disagrees with them. That's one of the reasons I wrote a longer answer to your question than one might have expected, perhaps even a slightly defensive answer, for which I apologise - I'm a little fed up with having my Christian commitment consistently questioned by one poster in particular. I will also challenge statements which I consider to be dubious, as well as fake news, conspiracy theories, half-truths, rumour, innuendo, "culture wars", abuse of individuals and groups, hate speech, etc. I would hope that this leads to civil, charitable and fruitful conversations where we can all explore our faith more deeply and understand each other better, although sadly it often doesn't. I find that frustrating.
Thank you. Yes, I am concerned with the world in which we live. It's God's creation and our home. As a Catholic I follow Catholic Social Doctrine in that regard.
"Upset" might be too strong a word, but I find the disunity in and between our different Christian churches to be sad. There's no problem with being different, but there should be a sense of unity within that diversity, and vice versa. Much of my work has been ecumenical, and I have found that to be very fulfilling and fruitful.
As for "certain individuals", I will challenge people who insist that their particular brand of Christianity is the only true one and who use derogatory labels for any Christian who disagrees with them. That's one of the reasons I wrote a longer answer to your question than one might have expected, perhaps even a slightly defensive answer, for which I apologise - I'm a little fed up with having my Christian commitment consistently questioned by one poster in particular. I will also challenge statements which I consider to be dubious, as well as fake news, conspiracy theories, half-truths, rumour, innuendo, "culture wars", abuse of individuals and groups, hate speech, etc. I would hope that this leads to civil, charitable and fruitful conversations where we can all explore our faith more deeply and understand each other better, although sadly it often doesn't. I find that frustrating.
75John5918
>62 brone: - >65 John5918:
A tragedy on a pilgrimage in Uganda.
“A heartbreaking blow”: Police on Death of Two Pilgrims Walking to Uganda Martyrs’ Shrine (ACI Africa)
I had the privilege of making the pilgrimage to Namugongo Shrine on Martyrs' Day in 1976. It was a joyful and memorable occasion as the Archbishop of Kampala, Emmanuel Nsubuga, had just returned from Rome after being made Uganda's first cardinal, and this was his first public engagement back in his home country. As a callow youth, newly arrived in Uganda as a volunteer lay missionary teacher, it was also my first experience of a huge open air mass. Not something we tended to see much of where I grew up in east London!
* The other 23 were Anglicans.
A tragedy on a pilgrimage in Uganda.
“A heartbreaking blow”: Police on Death of Two Pilgrims Walking to Uganda Martyrs’ Shrine (ACI Africa)
The death of the two pilgrims who were walking to Namugongo Shrine in the Archdiocese of Kampala to join others in the annual June 3 Martyrs’ Day pilgrimage is “a heartbreaking blow”, the police in Uganda have said. In a statement ACI Africa obtained, the police in Uganda say the two pilgrims from the country’s Masaka Diocese died in the Thursday, June 1 early morning accident that happened along the Kampala- Masaka highway after a bus veered off the road, hitting them. “The loss of Nabakooza Oliva and Nambi Specioza is a heartbreaking blow, particularly as they were on their way to join thousands of fellow faithful in commemorating the Martyrs Day celebrations, a significant event in the calendar of our beloved country,” the police say... Fr. Paul Musana, the Vicar General of the Catholic Diocese of Jinja that is animating this year’s Martyrs Day told ACI Africa that over one million pilgrims were expected at Namugongo Shrine and that they would begin arriving on June 1 ahead of a welcoming Eucharistic celebration. The Uganda Martyrs’ Day dates back to the first decade of Christian presence in the East African nation when 45 men aged between 14 to 50 years were killed because of their faith by the King of Buganda between 31 January 1885 and 27 January 1887. Among the 45 were 22 Catholics* beatified in 1920 and canonized in 1964 who continue to promote Catholic life in Uganda and also play an important role in constructing a Catholic identity globally...
I had the privilege of making the pilgrimage to Namugongo Shrine on Martyrs' Day in 1976. It was a joyful and memorable occasion as the Archbishop of Kampala, Emmanuel Nsubuga, had just returned from Rome after being made Uganda's first cardinal, and this was his first public engagement back in his home country. As a callow youth, newly arrived in Uganda as a volunteer lay missionary teacher, it was also my first experience of a huge open air mass. Not something we tended to see much of where I grew up in east London!
* The other 23 were Anglicans.
76cjbanning
>74 brone:
People who have "has deliberately rejected God" have always been around, and I think it was probably even more true in ages past than today that were more concentrated among "the elite, articulate section" of the human species. I think those who "merely ceased to believe in God" were much rarer (although not nonexistent either, of course) in ages past, especially prior to the Enlightenment.
I must admit I found the rest of your post difficult to follow. I happen to agree that we need a third way to capitalism and communism (if perhaps not for the reasons you believe we do), but I have no idea what a post-liberal order will or ought to look like. Nor am I sure what you are putting forth as a suggestion. Catholic integralism? Feudal monarchism? Something else?
The Catholic magisterium has been very clear about the importance of the political order respecting religious freedom as a fundamental human right which follows on the duty of all people to seek the truth about God. This necessarily includes the freedoms of those who hold to religious beliefs which are in error--which includes both heretics and pagans (categories you don't seem to bother to distinguish between)--as well as those who ascribe to the One True Faith. This teaching of the Catholic Church is found not only in the Vatican II document Dignitatis humanae but also in encyclicals by Popes Leo XIII and St. John Paul II.
Given this clear teaching of your Church, I would be interested in hearing what you think the political alternative to capitalism and communism ought to look like, and how it will respect the religious freedoms of pagans in accordance with Catholic teaching.
People who have "has deliberately rejected God" have always been around, and I think it was probably even more true in ages past than today that were more concentrated among "the elite, articulate section" of the human species. I think those who "merely ceased to believe in God" were much rarer (although not nonexistent either, of course) in ages past, especially prior to the Enlightenment.
I must admit I found the rest of your post difficult to follow. I happen to agree that we need a third way to capitalism and communism (if perhaps not for the reasons you believe we do), but I have no idea what a post-liberal order will or ought to look like. Nor am I sure what you are putting forth as a suggestion. Catholic integralism? Feudal monarchism? Something else?
The Catholic magisterium has been very clear about the importance of the political order respecting religious freedom as a fundamental human right which follows on the duty of all people to seek the truth about God. This necessarily includes the freedoms of those who hold to religious beliefs which are in error--which includes both heretics and pagans (categories you don't seem to bother to distinguish between)--as well as those who ascribe to the One True Faith. This teaching of the Catholic Church is found not only in the Vatican II document Dignitatis humanae but also in encyclicals by Popes Leo XIII and St. John Paul II.
Given this clear teaching of your Church, I would be interested in hearing what you think the political alternative to capitalism and communism ought to look like, and how it will respect the religious freedoms of pagans in accordance with Catholic teaching.
79John5918
>78 brone:
There are some contradictions in your post. Psalm 96:5 (not, I think, 95:6) has different translations and I think it's only the Douai-Rheims which says "devils". Most of the others, including the venerable King James Version, say "idols". Again, Douai-Rheims is the only one which says "gentiles", with the others using terms like "peoples", "nations" or "other nations". I'm certainly not enough of an expert to say which is the more accurate translation.
But let's take the translation that you favour. "Gentile" means someone who is not a Jew. In the New Testament we see the early tensions as gentiles began to become Christians, which was not an easy transition for Jewish Christians. Today, all of us Christians are gentiles. So is our "God of the gentiles" a "devil" (or "idol")? Taking texts out of context and interpreting them literally rather than through the lens of biblical exegesis can lead to such contradictions.
I'm surprised that you choose to quote approvingly from a protestant poet, as it seems from your posts that you view protestants as heretics and pagans. A hint of ecumenism there, perhaps? Looking for what we have in common rather than what divides us?
There are some contradictions in your post. Psalm 96:5 (not, I think, 95:6) has different translations and I think it's only the Douai-Rheims which says "devils". Most of the others, including the venerable King James Version, say "idols". Again, Douai-Rheims is the only one which says "gentiles", with the others using terms like "peoples", "nations" or "other nations". I'm certainly not enough of an expert to say which is the more accurate translation.
But let's take the translation that you favour. "Gentile" means someone who is not a Jew. In the New Testament we see the early tensions as gentiles began to become Christians, which was not an easy transition for Jewish Christians. Today, all of us Christians are gentiles. So is our "God of the gentiles" a "devil" (or "idol")? Taking texts out of context and interpreting them literally rather than through the lens of biblical exegesis can lead to such contradictions.
I'm surprised that you choose to quote approvingly from a protestant poet, as it seems from your posts that you view protestants as heretics and pagans. A hint of ecumenism there, perhaps? Looking for what we have in common rather than what divides us?
80MarthaJeanne
Devils or demons comes from the septuagint - the ancient Greek translation. Idols or similar is from the Hebrew.
Douai-Rheims is a translation of the Vulgate Latin Bible. So Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English. Even current Catholic translations (like the New Jerusalem Bible) prefer idols.
Douai-Rheims is a translation of the Vulgate Latin Bible. So Hebrew to Greek to Latin to English. Even current Catholic translations (like the New Jerusalem Bible) prefer idols.
83John5918
>81 brone: newer versions of the Catholic bible follow Protestant King James Version
Not true. The New Jerusalem Bible, which is an update of the Jerusalem Bible, like most modern translations follows the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts, and is a direct translation into English from those languages, referring to other versions where the text is open to more than one interpretation.
The English Douai-Rheims, on the other hand, is a translation of a translation. Rather than "following" the King James Version, there is evidence that to some extent it influenced the KJV, at least as far as the New Testament was concerned. But with improved translation techniques, new manuscript discoveries and scholarship, modern translations are undoubtedly more accurate than either the Douai-Rheims or the KJV.
But you are correct in saying that all Catholic bibles such as the New Jerusalem or Douai-Rheims, and these days some protestant ones, contain the Deutero-Canonical books.
Not true. The New Jerusalem Bible, which is an update of the Jerusalem Bible, like most modern translations follows the original Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts, and is a direct translation into English from those languages, referring to other versions where the text is open to more than one interpretation.
The English Douai-Rheims, on the other hand, is a translation of a translation. Rather than "following" the King James Version, there is evidence that to some extent it influenced the KJV, at least as far as the New Testament was concerned. But with improved translation techniques, new manuscript discoveries and scholarship, modern translations are undoubtedly more accurate than either the Douai-Rheims or the KJV.
But you are correct in saying that all Catholic bibles such as the New Jerusalem or Douai-Rheims, and these days some protestant ones, contain the Deutero-Canonical books.
84MarthaJeanne
Also all Greek Orthodox bibles contain the Deutero-Canonical books.
85John5918
>75 John5918:
2023 Uganda Martyrs Day Registers Highest Number of Pilgrims Ever (AMECEA)
Perhaps frustratingly for European and north Americans, the article doesn't actually give the number of pilgrims, but then African discourse often emphasises the narrative and qualitative over and above the quantitative, literal and mathematical!
Edited to add: Pilgrims locked out of Namugongo Catholic shrine over surging numbers (Monitor) suggests that more than three million pilgrims were expected to attend.
2023 Uganda Martyrs Day Registers Highest Number of Pilgrims Ever (AMECEA)
The Uganda Martyrs’ Shrines Namugongo, on 03rd June 2023, registered the highest number of pilgrims in history with a call on believers in Christ to emulate the Saint Charles Lwanga and Companions whose bloodshed turned into seeds of faith in Uganda. This year’s celebration attracted pilgrims from all across the East African countries, Malawi, and Nigeria, among other African countries and the world at large...
Perhaps frustratingly for European and north Americans, the article doesn't actually give the number of pilgrims, but then African discourse often emphasises the narrative and qualitative over and above the quantitative, literal and mathematical!
Edited to add: Pilgrims locked out of Namugongo Catholic shrine over surging numbers (Monitor) suggests that more than three million pilgrims were expected to attend.
87John5918
>86 brone:
I don't know what you're reading but the homosexual advances of the king are certainly not "conveniently left out of his heroic story these days", at least not in Uganda nor in any of the accounts which I have read. But it also has to be remembered that the execution of these young men was not fundamentally driven by homosexuality but was part of a power struggle between the king and the competing colonial powers, Britain and France. The king believed that the missionaries were in league with the foreign invaders against him, and thus the murder of Christian converts was an attack on the colonialists. And if you read >75 John5918: you'll note that the Anglican martyrs are mentioned, but you've got the numbers wrong - it was 45 martyrs, 22 being Catholic and 23 Anglican. Might also be worth mentioning Anglican Bishop James Hannington who was murdered for the same political reasons. The first group of Catholic missionaries all died en route during the eleven hundred kilometre trek on foot from Mombasa before even setting foot in Uganda.
I don't know what you're reading but the homosexual advances of the king are certainly not "conveniently left out of his heroic story these days", at least not in Uganda nor in any of the accounts which I have read. But it also has to be remembered that the execution of these young men was not fundamentally driven by homosexuality but was part of a power struggle between the king and the competing colonial powers, Britain and France. The king believed that the missionaries were in league with the foreign invaders against him, and thus the murder of Christian converts was an attack on the colonialists. And if you read >75 John5918: you'll note that the Anglican martyrs are mentioned, but you've got the numbers wrong - it was 45 martyrs, 22 being Catholic and 23 Anglican. Might also be worth mentioning Anglican Bishop James Hannington who was murdered for the same political reasons. The first group of Catholic missionaries all died en route during the eleven hundred kilometre trek on foot from Mombasa before even setting foot in Uganda.
89CobbsGhost
>79 John5918:
Young's literal:
5. For all the gods of the peoples are nought, And Jehovah made the heavens.
(Psalms, 96)
Young's literal:
5. For all the gods of the peoples are nought, And Jehovah made the heavens.
(Psalms, 96)
90MarthaJeanne
>79 John5918: I dislike the choices that translator made. It is certainly not a 'neutral' translation of the Hebrew, although it seems to be based on the Hebrew rather than the Greek.
91John5918
>88 CobbsGhost:
Thanks, yes, that text, which I think of often, is a great reminder about humility. One has to try and speak the truth as one sees it humbly without putting others down, and one has to challenge falsehoods where one can. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for the times I fall short. But I think it's also a warning about those who claim they have the only "good" religion and who deride (as opposed to simply disagreeing with) all those who don't match their idea of what "good" religion is.
Thanks, yes, that text, which I think of often, is a great reminder about humility. One has to try and speak the truth as one sees it humbly without putting others down, and one has to challenge falsehoods where one can. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa for the times I fall short. But I think it's also a warning about those who claim they have the only "good" religion and who deride (as opposed to simply disagreeing with) all those who don't match their idea of what "good" religion is.
93John5918
God is Trinity, ie God is by nature relationship. God is also in relationship with us. We develop and change, therefore the relationship develops and changes.
95John5918
>94 brone:
Just for the record, whatever else Bill Clinton may be, he is certainly not a Marxist. I've no idea about Alex Soros, and indeed I've only become aware of George Soros because right wingers give him so much free publicity.
Just for the record, whatever else Bill Clinton may be, he is certainly not a Marxist. I've no idea about Alex Soros, and indeed I've only become aware of George Soros because right wingers give him so much free publicity.
96cjbanning
>83 John5918: It's worth pointing out that the King James Version itself contains the deuterocanonical books, although it's not easy to find a modern print edition that includes them in a single volume.
