August Topic: What can fiction teach us about history?

We are interested in reading through time because we are interested in history.
History is so much more than just a boring sequence of facts about ‘great events.’ And it is in the ‘so much more’ that fiction can help enhance our understanding of, for example, what it was like to live at the time in question. Or it can help us speculate on what really was so-and-so’s motive for doing such-and-such?
Remember that fiction can be written at the particular time, or later as an ‘historical novel’.

What fiction do you plan to read that will shed light on some aspect of history?
Here are a few examples pulled off my bookshelves:

Novels written at the time
-‘North and South’ by Elizabeth Gaskell. Working class life in England at the time of the Industrial Revolution (and a great love story too)
-‘Dr Zhivago’ by Boris Pasternak. Life in Russia during and after the Revolution (and another great love story too)
-‘All Quiet on the Western Front’ by Erich Remarque. The unspeakable life of German soldiers during World War I.
-‘Sister Carrie’ by Theodore Dreiser. Life in Chicago and New York, lived by an ingenue from a small country town.
-‘Germinal’ by Emile Zola. Industrial strife and hard times in theca mines of late 19th century French

Novels written retrospectively
-‘Wolf Hall’ by Hilary Mantel. The perils of living in the court of Henry VIII, not to mention being married to him.
-‘Fire from Heaven’ by Mary Renault. First book in a trilogy about Alexander the Great.
-‘I Claudius’ by Robert Graves. First of two books about the Roman emperor Claudius.
-‘Sea of Poppies’ by Amitav Ghosh. First in the ‘Ibis Trilogy’ about India and China, both suffering the adverse effects of the British Empire in the Nineteenth century
-‘The Book Thief’ by Marcus Zusak. A child’s eye view of Nazi Germany.

I have long had an interest in the history of the American West and I am going to read a couple of books in August about certain aspects of that history. Comanche Dawn by Make Blakely, set in the 1680s it tells of the first horse obtained by the North American Plain indians, and the rapid development of their horse driven culture. I am also going to read West Like the Lightning by Jim DeFelice, which is a history of the short lived Pony Express.

"Hearts & Bones" by Margaret Lawrence is the first in a trilogy set just after the American Revolution. As historical fiction it reveals the less than glorious life of the common soldiers who fought for freedom only to discover that the English aristocracy had been replaced by their own American version.

I LOVE this topic!!! My library has North and South. I loved the only other Elizabeth Gaskell that I've read, so I may try for that. Last month, I finally got around to reading Pillars of the Earth, which I loved. With four books in the series, I will likely have at least one of those left to read for August. Pillars dealt with 12th century cathedral building, (which was fascinating to me after getting to see some), and with The Anarchy - the civil war between King Stephen and Empress Maud. A lot of fascinating history, realistically rendered.

Such a great topic! Too far in advance for me to chose......yet to decide!

>4 countrylife: North and South is a great example of fiction written at the time, and the Pillars of the Earth stands for fiction written (a very long time) later.
I read Follet's book years ago, and was fascinated by the hit and miss process of building an early Gothic cathedral, and the ultimate discovery of the need for flying buttresses to stop them falling down. Empirical rather than theoretic engineering......'oh, it fell down, lets try something different.'
Try to save North and South until August if you can, I would love to be able to discuss it.

In addition to North and South, Gaskell's also got Sylvia's Lovers, which includes an excellent portrayal of the press gangs of the Napoleonic Wars era. Sylvia's Lovers is one of Gaskell's lesser-read and less popular novels, but I have a liking for it.

Charlotte Bronte's Shirley is set in Yorkshire during the economic depression of the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812. It tends to be rated rather low among the Bronte novels, but I enjoyed the autobiographical elements in it – including Emily's dog Keeper in the character of Tartar. North and South in many ways tracks the social themes of Shirley, although Gaskell's perrspective is substantially to the left politically from that of her Tory friend Charlotte.

And note that in North and South, Rev. Hale's parsonage is in the fictional village of Helstone – Gaskell's acknowledgement to CB, one of whose two Shirley heroines is Caroline Helstone.

>7 CurrerBell: Does Shirley also have so much dialogue in Yorkshire dialect? I just finished Sylvia's Lovers and all that local talk slowed me down a little. But I liked it very much.

>8 MissWatson: No, I wouldn't say Charlotte used that much dialect. (That was Emily in WH.) Incidentally, as I recall, Gaskell footnoted her dialect in Mary Barton.

>9 CurrerBell: According to the editor of my copy, her husband William added those notes and they were intended to show that the speech the workers in this area used had a long tradition and were by no means uncouth, just fallen out of usage among standard English of the time. Most of them cite Chaucer and his contemporaries, so far.

>Thank you for that intriguing little detail on Helstone.
And I have added Sylvia's Lovers to my TBR list

>11 scunliffe: And the governess in Gaskell's Wives and Daughters is Miss Eyre.

>1 scunliffe: -- Your topic prompts me to ask a question that I've often wondered about.

Novels written retrospectively -
These I tag "historical fiction", as they are about past events, but written in the writer's present.

Novels written at the time -
What are these novels called? For want of a better tag, I use "contemporaneous fiction".

I'm curious what others call them, because seeing "historical fiction" on books like North and South is incorrect according to the definition of historical fiction.

I call them “contemporary, period name” :)

>14 AnnieMod: I use AnnieMod's nomenclature, which sounds a bit more grand than I mean it to be. The distinction between this and 'historical fiction' is hugely important. Historical fiction often uses a particular point of view of the past in order to create a good novel. Hilary Mantel for example, is very lop-sided in her version of Thomas Cromwell (a topic on which I would love to say more if anyone wants to hear it.)
Contemporary period name fiction is more likely to be accurate, but still only from the point of view of the author. Elizabeth Gaskell, as a good Unitarian, had a broad view of society as whole. You will learn much more from her about English social conditions than you will from Trollope's upper middle class/aristocratic focus, no matter how delightful his novels are.
Dickens of course tried to cover it all, especially in Bleak House. But sometimes it is difficult to figure out among his hyperbolic (and also delightful) descriptions, quite how accurate and representative he is of reality.
So, as we know today from the Internet, consider the source!

>13 countrylife: Interesting question, just how "retrospective" does the retrospection have to be?

I'd see Shirley as "retrospective." CB was looking back toward the Napoleonic era. (Waterloo occurred the year prior to CB's birth.) Likewise, EG was looking back to the Napoleonic era in Sylvia's Lovers.

The Red Badge of Courage, published three decades after Appomatox, is certainly, by the "retrospection" definition, historical fiction. But The Naked and the Dead would be a different matter.

>16 CurrerBell: Another example, Elizabeth Wharton wrote The Age of innocence in the early 1920's if my memory serves me right. And it is about New York before the end of the 19th century. My attempt to answer your question is that perhaps it is not so much a matter of elapsed years, as to whether there has been a change in societal attitudes. If so, the Age of Innocence would definitely be an historical novel. And maybe the same for your CB and EG examples, although the 19th century societal changes were weighted to the latter half (Industrial Revolution, Railways, Parliamentary reform etc) of the 19th century.

>16 CurrerBell:, >17 scunliffe: Not that this is the be-all and end-all of definitions, for reference purposes the Walter Scott Prize for Historical Fiction has this definition to be considered for the prize:

"Reflecting the subtitle ‘Sixty Years Since’ of Scott’s most famous work Waverley, the majority of the storyline must have taken place at least 60 years ago."

https://www.walterscottprize.co.uk/about-the-prize/

Finished audio of Fall of Giants by Ken Follett

I use the terms, "Historical Fiction” for works that authors have set in the past and; “Period Fiction” for those works whose authors were writing contemporarily, but now give modern readers insight into that period. And example of “Historical Fiction” would be Laurie R. King’s Mary Russell series set in Sherlock Holmes’ world; whereas “Period Fiction” would be Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s Sherlock Holmes Stories themselves.

I often think about John Le Carré’s chagrin at the induction of his papers at Oxford: At the speech marking the occasion, his spy novels were labeled as “historical fiction”! Speaking of Le Carré, one of the three titles I have lined up for August is by JLC (and ergo could be considered hist-fic by Oxford’s remarks) is The Night Manager.

Then there’s Richard III (by William Shakespeare which tells us something not only about RIII; but the audience for which it was originally written (so "double" Historical Fiction) and; The Mischief of the Mistletoe (Pink Carnation #7; by Lauren Willig) which will probably only provide a smidgen of historicity, but will doubtless be fun!

I might end up with a classic in the mix which I would consider Period Fiction; but we'll see...

that history may be partly ficticious

There’s a great quote from the science fiction novel, Pattern Recognition (by William Gibson):

The future is there ... looking back at us. Trying to make sense of the fiction we will have become. And from where they are, the past behind us will look nothing at all like the past we imagine behind us now. ... I only know that the one constant in history is change: The past changes. Our version of the past will interest the future about the extent we're interested in whatever past the Victorians believed in. It simply won't seem very relevant.

It’s kinda wonky sounding out of context of the original story; but my understanding of it is that our present and future actions are predicated on our interpretations of the past and; those interpretations can shift as things either become more occult or more revealed.

This year, I started off reading Kim (by Rudyard Kipling which lead to other stories and NF books set in/about 19th century British Colonialism. And now, I have a nominally keener understanding of some current world events. I’m not so sure any of it will change my future actions, but I do pause a bit every time I use a Twinings tea bag or see that big diamond set in the British Queen’s crown…

>22 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I am glad you read Kim. For me it gives a counter-balance to the side of Kipling most people often chose only to see, his jingoistic British Imperialism. I should mention that I am an ex-pat US based Brit. There are other gentler works by Kipling such as the Jungle Book and Just So Stories. And the heart breaking couplet written after the death of his son in WWI,

If any question why we died,
Tell them that our fathers lied.

I was quoting from memory, so it might be slightly incorrect.

Imperialism does not just take the form of physical occupation and imposition of values on another territory. It can, for example, take the form of economic dominance.
At some time in the future our successors may look back at the USA from 1950 to roughly now, and condemn our (I am a citizen so can say 'our') economic exploitation of the rest of the world in the same way British imperialism is condemned.

Some great ideas are listed here! I have added this theme to our Monthly Wiki.

>13 countrylife: there is not one definition of HF that everyone would agree on. Usually its a present author writing about a past event but how long ago is past? I have to laugh when I see a HF novel about the 70s, to me it was yesterday yet that was 50 years ago.To the question that you call novels written at the time I agree with Annie that contemporary novel would work for a novel writen in the authors own time.

>1 scunliffe: HF is a gateway to history; seems like often when I finish a well done HF I start looking for a Historic book about that time period or event, which often then leads me to another HF and so it goes. an example the book the good earth that I loved in HS led me to many books about China, including Wild Swans then to the Court of the lions Another more recent match the professor and the madman with the dictionary of lost books.

And even tho its 'fiction' I expect HF to be well researched and based on fact, with poetic license to make changes when nec. I expect a bibliography and/or an authors note explaning what is real and what was changed. oh and a map or family tree is very helpful Authors who do this well: Sharon Kay Penman ,Bernard Cornwell, Hillary Mantel Robert Graves

Not sure what HF I will read. I don't know as much about the 18th or 19th centuries in places outside of Europe and America.I may be looking for those

>25 cindydavid4: If you're looking for Asian HF, you might want to check out Amitav Ghosh's The Ibis Trilogy, which deals with India, the Indian Ocean, and China during the First Opium War.

>25 cindydavid4: >26 CurrerBell: I read the first one in the trilogy, Sea of Poppies a couple months ago and loved it! I'm in the middle of the second on the series now, River of Smoke and; I'm hoping to get to Flood of Fire by the end of the Summer:-)

>26 CurrerBell: I thoroughly endorse The Ibis Trilogy. Also enjoyed Ghosh's The Glass Palace about Burma, and The Hungry Tide about the Sundarban Islands in the Bay of Bengal. His quasi sequel to the latter, Gun Island was by contrast rather disappointing, combining too many scenes, themes and coincidences. So 80% for Mr. Ghosh, which is pretty good.

>25 cindydavid4: A gateway to history indeed, and sometimes a gateway to rather distorted versions thereof. Which is not to ignore that all 'factual' history is itself written and often read from a subjective point of view, even entirely created from scratch if you go back to Herodotus.
You mention Hilary Mantel and I got a lot of pleasure from Wolf Hall, although less from Bring up the Bodies and very little from The Mirror and the Light. 'Come on, just chop his head off and finish the book!' By complete coincidence I was taking a look at the notes I had made while studying History at university almost 60 years ago when I came across several pages grouped under the heading 'Wolsey and Cromwell.' By yet another coincidence Wolsey was the founder of the college where I studied, before Henry VIII swiped it from him. These notes make a strong case that Cromwell was a far more responsible politician than Wolsey. Cromwell did most of the king's governing through the legitimate method of parliamentary process, whereas Wolsey acted more as a surrogate dictator for Henry. I had forgotten entirely about this subject in the intervening half century +.
Mantel gives a very clear picture of Cromwell as an intelligent ogre who tramples ruthlessly over the bodies of those he coerces into providing mostly false testimony to free him from Catherine and then Anne, which in retrospect is rather one sided.

I try to read globally, but there are some areas that I fall short. One of those areas are the Spanish speaking histories/countries. I think for this month I'm going to try to read Fountains of Silence by Ruta Sepetys about the Spanish Civil War and the rise of Fascism in Spain. This would be the 1950's, so I think it might be a tad too "early" for "historical," but it's on my TBR and I'm gonna make it work!

>26 CurrerBell: >27 Tanya-dogearedcopy: >28 scunliffe: I definitely endorse The Ibis Trilogy, but with the one reservation that I thought the conclusion of Flood of Fire (volume 3) wrapped everything up just a little too neatly and tidily. Overall, though, a minor flaw considering the high quality of all three novels (and I thought the first, Sea of Poppies, was the best).

I have a few other books by Ghosh around the house and may look them up for August.

>29 scunliffe: "'Come on, just chop his head off and finish the book!'

heh i loved the book, but yeah, Iwas saying that myself towards the end. The three books were interesting; in the first I really liked her portrail of him. in the second I say the monstrous way he twisted words to fit the kings needs; then the last I saw him as a complex politician trying to keep his head down, so to speak.

never sure how much was cromwell or henry who really made the decisions.

>30 Tess_W: heck thats 70+ years ago! its HF for me

>30 Tess_W: My history’s teacher definition was that history is anything that happened before you were born (or more than a generation ago if you are a not so young adult). The Cold War is history at this point. Franco is as much history as WWII is. :)

Sepetys was not even born in the 1950s so she was definitely writing about history from her perspective. Which makes it a historical novel.

>33 cindydavid4: I was 6 years old 70 years ago. Now I think of anything to last week as food for history, with the earlier stuff being more digested

>35 scunliffe: esp as we are bombarded with news and events. the 24/7 news cycle has made sorting out what is history more difficult; the last impeachment trial feels like decades ago....

>26 CurrerBell: sorry late in responding, I did read Sea of Poppies year ago and never got to the other two. I need to catch up

I just finished reading River of Smoke (Ibis Trilogy #2; by Amitav Ghosh) and, at first I was a little disgruntled as the research seemed a bit artlessly incorporated into the narrative; but the end was a marvel in political overview and underscored what I liked in the first book. So far, 5.0 stars for Sea of Poppies and 4.5 for River of Smoke. Forewarned about the "tidy wrap” up of, but still looking forward to, Flood of Fire in August :-)

A propos our August theme, this quote from Hilary Mantel:
"Your real job as a novelist is not to be an inferior sort of a historian, but to recreate the texture of lived existence."

Oh I hate info dumps in historic fiction . Save that for author notes or separate or footnotes if you must.
The above quote by mantel is very apt.

I'm tentatively planning on Oil and Marble: A Novel of Leonardo and Michelangelo by Stephanie Storey.

oh that does look good!

In his excellent book Making History Richard Cohen makes the point that both Solzhenitsyn and Toni Morrison were novelists who revealed history that was either completely unknown, or unknown to most of us.
So I shall read/reread one of each One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich and Jazz. I have read Beloved twice before, so I will read about Harlem in the 20's instead.

>25 cindydavid4: there is not one definition of HF that everyone would agree on. Usually its a present author writing about a past event but how long ago is past?

I agree with this, but I've also heard it defined as an author writing about a time before they were born. I kind of like that. I know not everyone would agree, but I feel like it's a decent "rule of thumb" to go by.

ETA: I also like an author's note to explain what was real or not.

Good discussion here - wish I hadn't left it so long to take a look at the thread! Of course, I'll be choosing what to read soon, just haven't quite yet.

>44 LibraryCin: I also like an author's note to explain what was real or not.

Totally agree! I often avoid historical fiction because of feeling that I'm not sure what is true and what's not. When the author explains what's known and documented about the story (for example, Maggie O'Farrell does an excellent job of this for Hamnet), I feel like the author and the reader are on the same "page" so to speak ;)

I enjoyed this discussion too. I think I will read something by Alan Furst.

>46 kac522: Oh, and I'll be reading "Hamnet" in August for my book club. Perfect. That's one (and likely there will be more) I'll be reading for this, then. :-)

>48 LibraryCin: Just to muddy the water, one also has to understand that 'history' is itself not necessarily factual. It is one of the liberal arts, not a science. Once you get beyond a list of known dates, all other 'facts' are really interpretations of events selected and presented to fit the historian's point of view.

>49 scunliffe: Good point!

>46 kac522: That's just one of the things I love about Susanna Kearsley's novels--at the end of the story she explains which characters are historical vs fictional and where they fit into historical events, including those which she altered slightly to fit her story. I've learned a great deal about Scottish and English history through her characters eyes.

>52 cfk: Thanks for that--I've heard several people who have loved her books, but I'm rather picky about historical fiction. I may give them a try now!

>52 cfk: ditto sharon kaye penman and elizabeth chadwick. I learned so much about wales, scotland and england in the middle ages that Id never learned before. Led me to search out more Historic work from their bibliographies, and we ended up taking a trip to wales which was amazing

>26 CurrerBell: >27 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I read Sea of Poppies, but not the other two for some reason. Thanks for the reminder

>52 cfk: re Susanna Kearsley It looks like she writes Romantic History which I really don't care for. Just how Regency are her books?

I don't do Regency or hysterical fiction. Romance becomes a part of her stories but it is not the driving force.

thank you and I hope you werent insulted by my asking. Just been burned than a few times (hee aned I love your description of hysterical fiction. seen my share of those too) anyway I will take a look at her books, thanks

>57 cindydavid4: It's sooo frustrating trying to find real historical fiction rather than the 'swoon & sword' stuff.

August is just a few hours away so I will start the ball rolling. Just today I finished The Good Lord Bird by James McBride.
The principal character is the abolitionist John Brown. We don't learn anything new about the failed raid on Harper's Ferry, but the use of a fictional first person observer, a young boy slave, provides the opportunity for a black perspective on the events. Brown is portrayed as something of a religious maniac in his fervor to free slaves, more likely to endanger them by his efforts than to save them. Irreverent perhaps, but he does get some degree of reverrence too. Comes off much better than Frederick Douglass, seen as a pompous man good only for pompous speeches with a tendency to drink-inspired lechery, and a thoughtless husband. (In truth, if you read his autobiography, his wives do not intrude at all on his appreciation of himself)
Are these portrayals accurate? Does it matter? Probably not. The lesson I take a away is that Americans tend to romanticize and mythologize their heros, deserving or not.

I have completed my read of West Like the Lightning by Jim DeFelice, a non-fiction book about the Pony Express. I then read a YA book entitled Pony Express by Harriet Cade to see if the author kept to the known facts about the Pony Express and she did. The story was about a girl who disguised herself as a boy in order to ride for her injured twin brother, but other than stretching the truth by having a female rider, the author kept pretty much to the facts that we know about the Pony Express. There were discrepancies regarding the Indian raids that were a big part of the story but overall, Pony Express was a fun story about a girl who had an enormous adventure and I believe would impart some interesting facts to any young people who cared to read about the Pony Express.

Recently enjoyed Richard's Wright's "Black Boy". Gave me a deeper look into the cultural world of 1910's-1920's American South from the perspective of a Black man, writing in the 1940's, recounting his childhood through early adult life.

>39 scunliffe: What an excellent quote for this thread and this group! Thank you for sharing - "Your real job as a novelist is not to be an inferior sort of a historian, but to recreate the texture of lived existence."

>56 cfk: -- Love that - "hysterical fiction". I don't care for those, either. And I'd even put the popular Outlander in that bucket. Too much soft porn and not enough history. I barely made it through the first one, and never went back for more.

>63 countrylife: totally agree re outlander; I couldn't even finish the first book.

Last month I finished Shadow of the Moon by M. M. Kaye, a historical romance set during the 1857-58 rebellion in India. I enjoyed this novel and thought the setting very interesting, so I decided to read The Siege of Krishnapur by J. G. Farrell for this month’s theme. I’m about half way through, and while there is love in the air for some of the characters, this is clearly no romance. Farrell presents a satirical view of the British in charge of the fictional town of Krishnapur during the uprising. His satire is biting, bringing to my mind Jonathan Swift. His irony and wit and some of the absolutely absurd scenes he describes have me laughing out loud at times. It seems a presentation of one man’s view of the British in India at a time when things were beginning to go very badly for the Empire. I’m coming to feel that his view probably has validity, and that this work, like the works of Swift, has educational value.

>65 dianelouise100: I just put both of these books into my Powell’s wishlist. I’ve been on a British Colonialism reading binge this year and they sound like great reads! 🙂

>66 Tanya-dogearedcopy: I bet you’ll like them. I’ve added a number of historical novels set in India to my TBR, it’s a whole new area for me.

Hamnet / Maggie O'Farrell
3 stars

It’s the 16th century. 11-year old Hamnet and Judith are twins and have an older sister, Susanna. When Judith becomes ill, Hamnet tries to find someone to help.

I didn’t like the characters. The story was told as it followed different characters and in fact, went back and forth in time. I found it hard to follow at the start, maybe the first 1/3 of the book or so: who was who and how are they connected to each other? I wasn’t a fan of the writing style: everything felt detached to me – maybe this is why I didn’t like the characters? Why oh why did we need to include the magical realism (did NOT like that at all!): in addition to Agnes’s (the mother’s) foresight, which wasn’t bad, there was another part that changed a huge part of the story, and I thought it was stupid! I really did.

I thought there were “spoilers” given away in Historical Note at beginning of book! Given this, I assume they weren’t meant to be spoilers and I had heard before I read it, but I feel like I might have enjoyed it more if they had remained unknown until revealed in the book. I feel like with everything I didn’t like, I should rate it lower, but I am rating it ok, based on the story itself.

>66 Tanya-dogearedcopy: If you dont have them already on your list, there are two other novels by J.G.Farrell about the decline of the British colonial empire. As a true Irishman he rather enjoyed his subject, but he writes so well that I as a true Englishman, cannot find fault. After all, the colony that we oppressed longer and more savagely than any other was Ireland, even if it was the Norman conquerors of England that started it in the 11th Century.
The first of these books is Troubles, set in Ireland in 1919 just before the Irish broke out in open and successful revolt. The second is Singapore Grip, in the last days of Singapore before it was taken by the Japanese in WWII. I gave all three of these books 5 stars, and wish he had lived longer to write more.

>69 scunliffe: I was just looking at the whole trilogy! (I wanted to make sure they weren’t interdependent as I wanted to jump straight into the second title, The Siege of Krishnapur). Luckily, it looks like I can and, that I can save Troubles for that interstitial period between wars which, IIRC is coming up in 2023 as a quarterly challenge. I haven’t decided whether I’m going to read Singapore Grip sooner or later! ;-)

ETA - I couldn't wait so I dnloaded The Siege of Krishnapur from Audible. New-to-me British narrator Peter Wickham has that Old School British sound that I love and I'm already a couple hours into the story. :-)

I’m very impressed with The Siege of Krishnapur, which I’ve just finished. I especially enjoyed Farrell’s ironic style and am looking forward to reading Troubles, now that I’m aware that he is Irish (thanks, scunliffe).

I just finished The Black Obelisk by Erich Maria Remarque, even better than his Three Comrades in portraying the chaos of Germany in the early days of the Weimar Republic immediately after WWI. Astronomical inflation, which only the financially astute could survive, and the threatening right wing presence of proto-Nazi Freikorps, embracing with violence the lie set up by Hindenburg that Germany had not actually lost the war. (Frighteningly similar to what is now going on in the U.S.). These themes add up to a disorienting state of near insanity for German society as a whole, and are wonderfully captured by the events of the novel itself. Most definitely a good source of historical learning through fiction, of finding out what it was like to be there.

>72 scunliffe: "and the threatening right wing presence of proto-Nazi Freikorps, embracing with violence the lie set up by Hindenburg that Germany had not actually lost the war. (Frighteningly similar to what is now going on in the U.S.)."

I did not know this. yes frightening indeed. In my state election deniers have won primaries for governor sec of state, and county recorder. if they win the general, they will have control over the election. I am hoping that people will open their eyes and see what is coming, and they will lose. But I really am afraid what will happen if they win. There is a reason why people say those who forget history or condemned to repeat it*; History acts as a crystal ball to see our future if only we would look

*the other part of this" those who remember history will be condemned to see others repeat it. sigh

I read The Woman in the Moonlight by Patricia Morrisroe. This was the story about Beethoven's dedication of the "Moonlight Sonata" to Countess Giulietta Guicciardi, his 16 year old piano student as well as his lover. Napoleon was threatening Austria at this time, so the setting was very historical. I learned a lot about society in Vienna during this time and lightly researched some of the characters contained with the book. Quite well researched! However, the story telling was very average.

Here's a book I recently finished: The night watchman by Louis Erdrich
The real learning from this book concerned the work done by her grandfather against amazingly high odds to preserve the status of the Turtle Mountain Chippewas in North Dakota, which required a well prepared presentation to Congress in D.C.
This learning is contained in marvelous novel, not always easy to read, of both the mistreatment of Native Americans, and of their fulfillments. And as ever, Louise Erdrich is a masterful story teller, so we get good learning and great fiction.

I read an Alan Furst novel, set in 1938-39, The Foreign Correspondent. Carlo Weisz is an Italian emigre’ from Trieste, living in Paris and working as a journalist for Reuters. He also becomes the editor of an anti-fascist underground newspaper, after Italian secret police working in Paris kill the previous editor. There is not a lot of action in this book, but menace is lurking around every corner. It is the story of an honorable man doing his best to help his country on the cusp of war.

In a note before the book starts, Furst tells us that Italian emigres in Paris founded the Italian resistance, producing over 500 newspapers and journals that they smuggled into Italy to give hope and encouragement to the people there.

I need to catch up a little!

I finished The Siege of Krishnapur (by J.G. Farrell; narrated by Peter Wickham) and I loved it! The British are holed up the Residence as the sepoys revolt… A satirical take on the Classism of British India, it is the perfect antidote to Flashman (Flashman #1; by George MacDonald Fraser). The only reason I didn’t give it a full five stars is because I didn’t actually dream about it (one way I can tell a book has gotten under my skin).

The Mischief of the Mistletoe & "Away in the Manger: A Very Turnip Wedding Night” (Pink Carnation #7 & 7.5; by Lauren Willig) - A Georgian Romance/Napoleonic spy thriller, this Christmastime story is about a young woman who has taken on a position as a junior teacher at an all girls academy. While there, she inadvertently intercepts a message definitely not meant for her… Based on Jane Austen’s unfinished novel The Watsons, this features Ms Austen herself as a secondary character and touches on boarding school life for girls in the early 19th century. Fun, but probably more along the lines of “hysterical fiction” mentioned earlier than hardcore historical fiction. Still, you have French spies running around, powdered wigs, layered cloaks …

The Night Manager (by John LeCarré) - Set in the days of the First Gulf war, Jonathan Pine is a hotelier who gets ensnared in the world of arms trafficking. This novel is more “Bondesque” with its outsized nemesis, women and, exotic locales than I’m used to from this author, but it still remains within the world of credibility. While reading, I dreamt that I was in a small aircraft landing on a small island—all the while filled with dread and nerves… so yeah, 5 stars for the book. 😉 Note: The series (Amazon Prime) has moved the timeline up to the Arab Spring; but has so far preserved the style & tension of the original. Also, Tom Hiddleston, Hugh Laurie and, Olivia Coleman are in it ❤️❤️❤️

Richard III (by William Shakespeare) - Richard of York is making his moves: discrediting and killing his enemies, manipulating his allies and, going for the crown… Based in historical chronicles and mashed up with Tudor-appeasing propaganda, Shakespeare gives us one of the greatest dramatic villains of all time.

I hope to start Flood of Fire (Ibis Trilogy #3; by Amitav Ghosh) this weekend and wrap up the story of indentured servants aboard a ship on the eve of the First Opium War.

These Happy Golden Years / Laura Ingalls Wilder
4 stars

Laura is now 15(?) years old and has her first teaching job. But it’s taking her away from her family and she needs to board with people near the new school… and the wife/mother doesn’t seem to like her much. Lucky for Laura, Almanzo decides to come bring her home on weekends. And the job is only for a couple of months. Once she is done, she can go back to her own schooling.

This is the start of this installment of Laura’s childhood/growing up in the late 1800s. The rest of the book follows her to more teaching jobs and with her and Almanzo’s courtship.

I really enjoyed this one, as well. It feels like not as much happened in this one as in some of the others, but we followed the seasons through a few more years as Laura (and Mary) grow up and are branching out on their own. From the title of this one, I always thought they would be much older (“Golden Years”) in this book, but I suppose the meaning of the phrase might be different now. I found it interesting that she could go back and forth between teaching and being a student (with her regular class!). Obviously she didn’t need to finish school to become a teacher. I really do love the descriptions of the prairie and of the weather.

I just joined the group, so hello there! I don't generally plan out much of my reading in advance, but one novel I've read during August that certainly helped me learn about fiction is a book I've just noted in the quarterly thread, Boy in Blue by Royce Brier.

My full review is on the book's work page, but here is an excerpt relevant to this topic:

"Robert's early army days entail a lot of training, and then months of marching hither and yon, up and down Tennessee, without seeing much action. As readers, we know, of course, that there must be a climactic battle coming at the end of all this. Still, the descriptions of those dreary months of marching and discomforting struggle are rendered quite well and we do feel that we're getting a believable close feel for the experience of an army in the midst of its perplexing (to the foot soldiers) wanderings. Brier was very good with the sights and sounds and physical toils of the marching, rain soaked or sun beaten days and weeks going by, with just enough characterizations of Robert's marching comrades to fill in the spaces around him. The flyleaf tells us that Brier spend a long time walking the Cumberland Valley trails that the Federal army traversed during the weeks leading up to the battles fought there, and we can certainly believe it.

The battle, when we finally get to it, takes up around the final 60 or so pages of the book. We do not know whether Robert will survive. It is a testament to Brier's skill, I think, that the ending, whether it's to be happy or tragic, is not telegraphed. So, all in all, I am happy to have read this novel."

Cheers!

Welcome! glad you found us; think you'll enjoy the vareity of themes, and how loosey goosey they can be; next month esp is probably going in many different directions. Looking forward to what else youll read

Just saw this in a review of that book ". Boy in Blue was published in 1937. Doing the math, this means that it was published 85 years ago, but "only" 72 years after the end of that war" one of those books that might be considered history rather than historic fiction, depending on how you define it

A novel I read that certainly enhanced my knowledge the civil war; Oldest Living Confederate Widow Tells All the book has a very young woman marry a soldier in the war, so she has much to tell; I found it very good, esp enjoyed the description of Shermans March of the South and the burning of Atlanta. Did not realize that the path of destruction could be seen from the air for a long time. Interesting that the documentary The Civil War aired about the same time, brought it all together for me.

>80 cindydavid4: “ Just saw this in a review of that book ". Boy in Blue was published in 1937. Doing the math, this means that it was published 85 years ago, but "only" 72 years after the end of that war" one of those books that might be considered history rather than historic fiction, depending on how you define it ”

Yes, that was my review, actually. I personally never conflate historical fiction with history, however, regardless of when it was written. A novelist’s first obligation is to his/her storyline, even if a fact must be sacrificed or an event and/or character invented along the way to that end. An historian’s first obligation is to facts. That’s the line I draw, anyway. We each have our own definitions, I guess. Cheers!

>79 rocketjk: Welcome to the Reading Through Time Group, we are a small group of history (both fiction and non-fiction) lovers. If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to post - someone will answer.

>81 rocketjk: heh didn't realize it was yours! I agree about differences in definition; back a while ago we discussed that in Avid Reader, and think we came to the same coclusion - its all in how we see it. For HF, Im a bit more picky about the facts; I don't mind if the author changes facts for the story,but they darn well better fit the story, the time and place, and make sense (also helps if HF writer includes an authors note about changes that were made) History should be fact which is why I am skittish about narrative fiction, which I now understand better, from an earlier discussion; still depends on how the writer is able to make it work.

>1 scunliffe: Several years ago, I became an accidental homeschooling parent, with that fateful decsion turning into a nine-year career. I was fortunate to belong to a wonderful online community that offered incredible support. One idea that came out of the experiment was utilizing history at the center of my son's education. Many other disicplines were connected through this central theme. So for freshman year of high school, the study of ancient times also involved reading works like The Iliad, The Epic of Gilgamesh, and authors like Aristophanes, Euripides, and Confucious. These were the actual, full-length works. It was a wonderful way to learn and teach.

what a great idea! We used themes with the preschoolers, teaching all lessons via the theme. Teaching via history with older kids would not only be a great way to learn, but so much fun to teach!!!

A Gentleman in Moscow / Amor Towles
2.25 stars

In 1922 in the Soviet Union, rich man Count Alexander Rostov is sentenced to “house” arrest, imprisoned in a fancy hotel. He spends the next few decades in the hotel.

That’s pretty much it. Not much happens (until the end). I found the “imprisonment” odd, as he didn’t even need to stay in his room; he had access to go wherever he wanted in the entire hotel. He could chat with whomever he wanted, he ate in the restaurant, he sometimes slept with an actress who stayed in the hotel. Not exactly sure what kind of “prison” this is (not much, in my opinion). At some point, he was working in the restaurant, but I missed when that started.

It was pretty slow-going and I was bored so I skimmed some of the book. A little girl “the Count” met, Nina, was slightly interesting for a very short time. Later on, Sofia was occasionally interesting. Not sure what happened here, but possible Whatever happened to Nina? Why didn’t she ever come back for Sofia?. Very possible that was explained, too, and I missed it. The book gets the extra ¼ star for the ending, but for the most part, nothing happened and it was boring. I realize my opinion does not agree with most.

thats ok.* for some reason I was really charmed by it. I didn't mind stuff not happening, just for me watching 'the count' navigate and visit and later become a father figure to Nina. As to why she didn't come back, I assumed, given her underground involvement, that she was captured and imprisoned and/or killed. Regarding what fiction could teach history , this not so much, except about this old hotel and how people dealt with the life in the soviet union. BTW I was really excited about his new book lincoln highway and terribly disappointed in it.

*I still don't understand how crawdads is still number one on the best seller list, but thats just me

>87 cindydavid4: Once a book gets momentum, everyone (especially people who rarely or never read) start buying it -- because it is popular, it makes a good present (they think), it looks good on a shelf or who knows what else. And if you had read 2 books since high school (and one of them was your laundry machine manual), this book actually looks interesting and fresh (and does not feel like a repetition of better stories you had read)...

Either that or it is the aliens ;)

>88 AnnieMod: hee yeah I know, but man its been over a year, maybe close to two!

>87 cindydavid4: As to why she didn't come back, I assumed, given her underground involvement, that she was captured and imprisoned and/or killed.

Thank you for this. I completely missed that she was involved that way. I suppose I didn't notice even *why* she left Sofia there to begin with.

>84 AdventureGirl59: that sounds like a great program, and one that benefit the teacher as well as the student. I suppose you can stretch History beyond the Liberal Arts, for example the history of botany (Linnaeus) or astronomy (Galileo) or physics (Archimedes) and so on....

>89 cindydavid4: I found the singing Crawdads tedious and unconvincing to the point of being ridiculous. I did not finish, did not care who pushed what's his name off the tower, although it was probably a good idea to do it.

Herman Hesse, Siddhartha. This isn't a retelling of the story of the Buddha. The Buddha appears here as Gautama, but Siddhartha is a separate character (if "separate" has any meaning in Zen, and that's really what Hesse's novel is, more than it is "original, "orthodox" Buddhism), a seeker who encounters the Buddha in his youth but follows his own path.

>92 scunliffe: sharing the same bench you are on

>93 CurrerBell: I did not realize that; never read the book, but always assumed they were the same person. thanks for that.

This month I read By Her Own Design.

This biographical historical novel is a great read for those interested in fashion design in the 20th c. Annie Lowe was a black woman with exceptional design skills. With the mentoring of her matriarchal household, the determination to never give up and some artistic patrons along the way, she created a business where she dressed the women of high society in the US. Her most well-known (now) dress was Jacqueline Kennedy’s wedding dress when she married JFK. But there are sore spots in this narrative where they shouldn’t have been. Why was she never recognized? Why did her name not attach to her art? This is well worth the read for the history and the unveiling of a person of color whose work was nearly erased. It is packed with facts but wrapped in a story that is easy to follow in its memoir format.

>94 cindydavid4: Don't misunderstand me. The Buddha historically was Siddhārtha Gautama. Hess (I'm not sure why) made the alteration in his novel.

Haaa, thank you for that clarification, Poetic license involved I see.

>95 beebeereads: smithsonian had a fascinating article about her a few years back.

>95 beebeereads: I remember reading about her in The New Yorker last year! Let me go see if I can find a link...

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/03/29/ann-lowes-barrier-breaking-mid-cen...

oops, yes it was in the NYer, thanks for the correction. Excellent article

I read A Single Thread and learned about the lives of women in Winchester in the aftermath of WWI. So many men died in the war leaving many women single. It was a difficult situation in a society set up for men to be the breadwinner. I also appreciated learning more about Winchester and Winchester Cathedral one of the places in my family history.

>98 cindydavid4: >99 Tanya-dogearedcopy: Thanks so much for pointing me to this article!

Abundance / Sena Jeter Naslund
3 stars

This is a fictional account of Marie Antoinette’s life, as she moved from being a princess in Austria to the queen of France before the French Revolution overthrew the French monarchy.

I listened to the audio and it just didn’t draw me in much, so since I was often distracted, I did miss much of it. I have read only one or two other books on Marie Antoinette. I found some of the vocabulary used in the book a bit… “pretentious”? I can’t think of a good word – “high-falutin’”? (LOL!) I suppose pretentious works. That certainly didn’t help get me more interested. I am still rating it ok, as it did pick up a bit toward the end during the Revolution. I did find interesting what happened to Marie and Louis’ son and daughter after their parents were put to death. I likely did read of that previously, but I had forgotten.

>103 LibraryCin: This has been on my TBR 6 years! I've tried it twice but it just doesn't grab me. One of my friends suggested Antonia Fraser's book Marie Antoinette - The Journey so I may give it a try and let this go, I think twice tried is an indication that I'll never read it.

I also read Abundance but really liked it (I dunno if having read about MA when I was younger made much of a difference, but it worked for me/ I remember being excited when Fraser came out with the bio of MA, but oh man talk about a research dump. Way over detailed, bailed half way through

>104 clue:, I clicked through to the Antonia Fraser book and it is the one I've read about her. I gave it 4 stars, so I liked it better than Naslund's fictional book.

>105 cindydavid4: I wonder if knowing more about her ahead of time would have helped? Or maybe not listening to the audio? I'm not sure.

>106 LibraryCin: heh, as they say, ymmv :)