Severus Snape

I thought the resolution was *emotionally* fitting, but my brain still wasn't convinced.

First of all, Lily rushes to his aid against the Marauders, and Snape, instead of thinking, "Hey, she likes me! I'm in there!", attacks her with a racial insult.

Now I don't know about you, but when I had a crush on a guy at school I used to long for him to notice me. (Cue soundtrack of "Whyyyy can't he see-ee... How blind can he beeee... Someday heeee will see-ee, That heeee was meant for me!") If a guy I fancied sprang to my defence against a bunch of bullies, I wouldn't have repaid his kindness by insulting his racial status. HELL NO! I would probably have taken it as proof of his interest in me and doted on him further... Which is probably why no school crush of mine ever bothered to rescue me in such heroic fashion :)

So you see, when I see Snape treating Lily like that and then later claiming he's desperately in TRULUV with her and always has been, my kneejerk reaction is, "You sure?"

Secondly, if Harry is the son of the woman he loved with all his heart, why does Snape go out of his way to hurt him? "Our... new... celebrity." Yeah, that really convinces me that Snape loved his mother with all his heart! Why on EARTH doesn't Snape think "Harry has no parents now, there's no James to get in my way, so I will befriend him and get as close as I can to Lily through her child?" That, to me, would be a logical way to behave if he loved Lily. But it's not Snape that behaves that way, it's Remus. Bizarre.

I know, Snape is emotional not logical. But I can't help thinking it's a bit of an "idiot plot" if it only works because a central character reacts in perversely negative ways to external stimuli.

Hmm...about that Snape and Harry thing... I just finished reading the book myself and my opinion is that it is because of James. I mean, the grudge they held was strong - I must admit and I think this plays a role in why he hates Harry so much. And then again, this is Snape we're talking about. I've never really understood the way his mind works...

#1

I don't think that a boy wants to be defended from other boys by a girl. :-)

Myshelves you make the most important point. Snape if anything, was a proud character and he let his pride get in the way of seeing what Lilly had done for him.

When Snape was complaining about Harry to Dumbledore I think he said something along the lines of Harry being as arrogant as James. Snape saw more of Harry's father in him than he did of his mother. Snape never looked close enough at Harry to see that he had, as Dumbledore tried to point out to him, Lilly's eyes.

A boy will defend his pride by calling a girl who cares for him an insulting racial epithet? Really? I can understand "Stay out of this, girl, I can fight my own battles!", I can't understand "Get away from me with your MUDBLOOD cooties!"

Also, "Our... new... celebrity." Say what you like about Harry having a resemblance to Snape's detested childhood bully, Snape should have been mature enough to recognize that Harry was an eleven-year-old and, effectively, a tabula rasa.

Like I said, "idiot plot" - it required Snape to act like an idiot.

i think that when snape called lily a mudblood, it was just because he was angry about being totally humiliated in front of practically half of the school by his enemy. snape didn't really think,about what he was saying, it probably just kinda slipped out.

snape hated james and whenever he looked at harry, all he could see was james. i don't think that snape could get over that, even though harry had lily's eyes and snape loved lily.

If stuff "just slips out", it's normally because the person is thinking it in all sincerity. So he TRULUVS her and thinks of her as a "Mudblood" at the same time? What a jerk...

Jerk, also, that he sees an eleven-year-old orphan as a threat.

Snape is a far better hater than he is a lover, which is why the request that we see him as a lover all along rather grated with me.

#7

I agree.

This "love" that everyone is mooning about is the selfish "I want her, and I don't care what she wants, or what makes her happy or unhappy" variety.

Given that the object of his affections had died, brutally, then his love would have been a very bitter, angry love (he's generally quite a bitter, angry man- and with reason). And it is sort of natural for him to hate Harry, because Harry is living evidence of how Lily loved James, and possibly he blames Harry for Lily's death.

As for the pensieve memory, Snape was poisoned by his fellow Slytherins to hate 'mudbloods' and so when he was looking for something biting to say to Lily, since he was so mad and horribly humiliated, and a rash teenager, that's what came to mind.

*Snape's defense rests*

Yes, the object of his affections died at the hands of his former boss. That would make one bitter, granted, but I'd have thought being so wrong about things might have also led to a bit of humility in the future. Compare him with Dumbledore, who also lost a loved one thanks to a dodgy association and who lost most of his arrogance as a result.

Snape, however, seems just as keen as ever to make snap judgements and to vent unwarranted loathing onto an eleven-year-old orphan who never did anything *to* him. And then we're supposed to believe that inside he's a big squishy bundle of love who made his Patronus into Lily's as a tribute? Doesn't compute.

I wouldn't say it's "sort of natural" for him to hate Harry - on the contrary, as Lily's son Harry should be his favourite! What kind of "love" is cruel to the beloved's son in that way? A selfish sort of love, a love that cares nothing for what the beloved would have wanted, as #8 suggests.

Regarding Snape's insult, I still say that his use of that insult shows that he thought of her in that way. If your friend randomly came out with the worst thing they could say about you in a random argument, you would seriously start to question whether they even liked you. I don't blame Lily for her reaction at all - and, apart from anything else, half-bloods in glass houses shouldn't throw stones labelled "Purity of Blood", should they now?

half-bloods in glass houses shouldn't throw stones labelled "Purity of Blood", should they now?

No indeed, and I think that is precisely Rowling's point (and with Voldemort, too, who is also a half-blood). :)

Regarding Snape's treatment of Harry, I saw it as three things: 1) Harry as the spittin' image of James Potter, his arch-enemy; 2) Harry as a living reminder of Lily Potter, for whom he suffered an unrequited love; and 3) Harry as the child he and Lily might have had, but didn't, and now (thanks to her death at Voldemort's hands) would never have.

Snape's not exactly the sunniest, most cheerful of people on a good day, so I can see how the three factors above, plus his own constant grief/torture over the whole thing, could combine and cause him to have a love/hate attitude towards Harry.

Indeed, Dumbledore remarks on this in, let's see, is it Book 5? after Harry's disastrous Occlumency lessons with Snape. Dumbledore apologizes to Harry, saying that he thought Snape had moved on a bit could put the past behind him, but he (Dumbledore) was wrong.

Okay, I have a couple alternate theories on the whole Snape hating Potter thing.

Publicly: If he and Dumbledore both suspected that Voldemort would be coming back, it would blow Snape's cover to be drooling over Harry Potter like the rest of the wizarding community. If he was supposed to have been loyal to Voldemort to the bitter end and, presumably, willing to go back to Voldemort's service if he came back, it would look mighty strange for him to be favoring Harry Potter, the reason for Voldemort's fall. Besides, he didn't want anyone to know he was in love with Lily; favoring Harry Potter would have had everyone scratching their heads and going "huh?"

Privately: It seems reasonable for him to privately also dislike Harry. The woman he loved went off and married his mortal enemy and now he has to see a daily reminder of that. I think that would hurt, just a bit and cause him to lash out at Harry, especially if he thought Harry was acting more like James than Lily.

As for the mudblood comment. Has no one ever said anything to a loved one in the heat of the moment that they regretted and wished they could take back? People are fallible, it happens. I seem to recall from Snape's memories of the incident that Lily was trying not to smile or trying to hold back a smile or something like that. The person he'd been in love with for so many years, laughing at his public humiliation? I can see how he would lash out at her and try to hurt her as much as he was hurt.

And I agree with Absurda. Being nice to Harry and his friends (or anyone who was not of Slytherin house) would have been information that would have made it's way back to the DE pretty quick. Would have completely blown his cover. And even being nice to Harry on the sly would have been dangerous since book five has Voldemorte in Harry's mind and regardless of how he may feel about Harry, he still doesn't trust his ability to withstand Voldemorte's mental pull.

The mudblood comment, people say many things in the heat of the moment and as I've seen many times people will say things because they know it will agitate their opponent - regardless of what they believe - and completely forget about other parties who they do not intend to wound. He knew that Potter and Sirius hated the term mudblood and that Potter liked Lily. Simply a way to get a rise out them. He'd just been overtaken (them against him) and at this point his only effective weapon would have been the words he used. Lily I think got caught in the crossfire.

And if he had been corrupted by the Slytherin mindset... I've seen plenty of people who have racist or bigoted beliefs but are willing to make the exception. "You're alright, but all the rest of them are dirt." Sometimes they are able to accept the person or they simply pretend that that aspect of them does not exist. I've had the personal experience of being the "only one that's alright," so it does happen.

I always believed Snape was "Dumbledore's man" so to speak. Rowling, instead of writing for the initial demographic she wrote for in books 1-3, did not alter her writing for the adult readers but wanted to write for the kids who started with Harry. So her books got more mature as her readers did.

Part of that maturity is indicated by her allowing Snape to be a heroic character without being a hero himself. He is petty, childish, resentful, bitter and holds a grudge a long time. He can be a good guy and not be a boyscout(gryffindor). That is the way the world often is. You often have to work with people who are on the same side as you but still they seem to be personally repellant. It also brings back the adage that one must not simply "judge the book by it's cover." Evil will not always appear evil, the most dangerous evil is they brand that can wear a pleasant face. Just because Snape is unattractive and petty and I don't care how old he is... adults are as just susceptible to immature behavior as children - even more so as they've had alot more practice. And Snape has had a lot of practice. Dumbledore used and manipulated him for his own ends - even if they were for the greater good. The boys who were supposed to be role models in the school, were bullies and no one gave him any credit for much of anything. Except Lily, of course he loved her, she was the only person who was his friend and cared for him without demanding anything but equal respect for herself and his own wellbeing in return. He's lost the only relationship that ever gave him any solace.



He's not a nice man, he's not a fair one, I don't even know if he's a good man. But he's one of the good guys. I don't think it's an idiot plot, I think it's a rather mature plot (though not executed as smoothly as I'd have liked) and quite fitting given the lessons Rowling's imparted (through Dumbledore) over the years. In all the stories you read when you are young you hear about the handsome prince vanquishing the ugly witch, the ogre, the giant. I would have been greatly disappointed had Rowling continued with the evil = ugly, good = beautiful routine. People are fallible, and some are injured and broken and their own worst enemy this does not mean they are unredeemable or evil. With Dumbledore gone this lesson about people and growing up had to be taken over by someone, even if it was posthumously. So I suppose it's fitting that Harry's son is named Albus Severus.

Absurda & sollocks,

Very insightful posts!

I would introduce one little quibble. :-) Yes, if Snape was to be useful as an agent when Voldy returned, it was not a good idea for him to be kind or friendly to Harry. But from what we saw in the pensieve, in one scene in Dumbledore's office, his attitude towards Harry wasn't a matter of policy: "... mediocre, arrogant as his father, a determined rulebreaker, delighted to find himself famous, attention-seeking and impertinent---"

Also, with regard to "Albus Severus," my reaction was, to borrow a phrase from Ron, "Overkill, mate." :-)

That whole damned epilogue was overkill. I suspect she let her kids write it, as some sort of Christmas present ;)

She is supposed to have written it many years ago (17?), and to have used it with few changes. I think that her writing got better in the meantime. :-)

Yeah there were a couple of cloying moments in the book, she usually has one. And I'd heard that about the epilogue too. Her writing has improved, she started raising the bar plotwise around Azkaban and there was no stopping her after that. Which makes her distinct from, say, Lemony Snickets. He's pretty fun and successful, but repetitive and once I read through the first four books I was done. When I finished the first book I immediately when to the next one and the next one and agonized when I found I had to wait a year to read another.

o.K.
I wrote a letter to J.K saying that she should
write a book on different characters so that we could learn more about them. What do you folks think?

Harley

doesnt any body else find snape quite fit in the seventh book