Illustrated Cabell Bibliography

In the recent thread on updates to Hall, Crypto-Willobie proposed both an online bibliography and a census of dust jackets. The more I thought about, the more I came to the conclusion that those aren't two things, they are one thing.

I'm proposing that we develop a collaborative illustrated bibliography of JBC's works. I've made a VERY small start to the way I think it might work. This address

http://www.karkeeweb.com/cabellmain.html

should take you to my rough draft. You'll need to use this link or set a bookmark - for now I've added it to another website of mine, on a very different subject, and there is no link to this page from the website index page.

If you follow the links to the page for The Eagle's Shadow, you'll see what I have in mind. THis is the only page that is even close to complete - click on the thumbnails to see the full size photos.

If anyone is interested in this sort of collaboration - let me know. I can handle the HTML part, but it will have to be a joint effort to write the text and provide photos.

John

This sounds great to me. I like what you have so far, and am glad to contribute in any way I can.

It looks great so far, John! comments...

- Do you think we can (fair) use text from Brewer, Bruccoli, Brussel, Hall/Bond and incorporate where appropriate? After all we would be not-for-profit and would acknowledge.

- You seem to have most of the editions, jackets etc necessary to supply the visuals. I might (or might not) have a few that you lack, but would have to figure out how to use my wife's scanner. Do you think we could connect with the Cabell Library collection for images we are missing? Rabbler Jim Glanville has some lines open to the librarian there. I'm in occasional contact with former Kalki editor Bill Godshalk who has an interesting collection - I could solicit his help. (For all I know you're already in touch with these people and more...)

- Your question about whether there really is a second state of 1904 US Eagle's Shadow as described by Hall.... I've seen a dealer on-line (Aurelius Books) who claims to have a second state but does not describe it in detail. I've just written him to confirm details (expanded dedication but seated figure).

I'd enjoy contributing however I can....

John -- do you recognize this Cabellian bookplate?

It's about 4"x5" decorated with bookshelves on all sides; in the center are two figures, one a stallion wearing a checkerboard jockstrap standing on his hind-legs with his arms folded like a person and a human smirk on his face; and he is regarding an ostrich with a world-globe body who is sticking his head in the ground. There is a legend beneath reading (of course) Mundus Vult Decipi (sic). The bookplate is signed "Leohwaldinian(?) ex libris"

Perhaps there would be a place for bookplates, inscription, association features of certain copies, etc in the bibliography.

>5 Crypto-Willobie: Your question about whether there really is a second state of 1904 US Eagle's Shadow as described by Hall.... I've seen a dealer on-line (Aurelius Books) who claims to have a second state but does not describe it in detail. I've just written him to confirm details (expanded dedication but seated figure).

I heard back from this dealer. Apparently what he has is Hall's 3rd state, which, according to the Brussel bibliography (1932) he used, is the second state. So, could Hall be wrong? But didn't his info regarding Eagle's Shadow states come from Nelson Bond?

Sorry for dropping off, but I've had some health issues and just got back home yesterday. I don't recognize the book plate, but it certainly sounds interesting - exactly the kind of thing we could show on the bibliography site. Hall may well have gotten his info on Shadow states from Nelson Bond; I don't honestly recall discussing it with him. And this may very well be a perfectly valid variant - I am constantly amused how a particular piece can seem to be unobtanium for one person, while another collector seems to be tripping over the same item at every corner.

So sorry to hear aobut your health issues, John, and glad you're back with us.
How can we help you move forward with the on-line bibliography?

I've been giving some thought as to how I think we should proceed.

First of all, I realize I'm just a newby here, and I want to make sure that the group is behind this. If we go forward, I really think it should be presented as a group effort of The Rabble Discuss Cabell. And anyway, it's just too large a task for one person alone.

I would suggest something like this:

I will volunteer as webmaster for the new site. I have the tools and (barely sufficient) ability to handle the web work, manage the photos, etc.

I suggest that another member (Crypto-Willobie?) take on the role of editor-in-chief. I've made a draft of what I think the site and its individual entries might look like, but I'd like the editor to revise the format as he sees it. I expect it will develop as we move forward.

We also need to consider the relation between the website and LibraryThing. Obviously the two are linked somehow, but I don't know this site's policies and don't want to step on anyone's toes.

Once we have an agreed format, then as many people as possible should start writing text, using our template as a base. I would suggest we use Hall's designations, as those seem to be the most comprehensive and available. We should, however, add formal bibliographic descriptions as Brussel and Brewer. We can quote those, I think, as long as we are careful to attribute them properly.

So as I see it, each person picks a title, and using the template, writes up a descriptive entry for each of Hall's variations, modified of course by later knowledge. If you have the examples and the capability, then make the appropriate scans as well. Everyone sends them to me. As webmaster, I'll put it all together, add scans (when available), and upload it, where the new entry is reviewed and approved by the editor.

As for additional resources such as libraries, I don't have any such connections, and I think we should certainly take advantage of any help we could get. I, for one, would be honored to have Mr. Godshalk and other such experts involved. However, that would be a group/editorial decision.

I can provide scans of quite a few items, but certainly not all. We'll need as much group involvement here as possible. One immediate formatting issue - I am at present sizing the large versions of the pictures to 1200 pixels in that largest dimension. I chose this as a compromise between sufficient detail and download time, but looking back at it now the pictures seem a bit too large. Does this size seem appropriate? Once we get into production it will be a pain to change. If you can and do provide scans, don't worry about formatting. I will resize everything to fit - just send 'em nice and large so we have room to work with. One more thing about photos - send lots. We can work out the minimum we'll need for each entry, but remember that this is the web. We don't have the space issues we all have to work with in hard print, so we can add as much detail as we like, such as inscriptions, interesting bookplates, etc. - all subject to the editor's approval, of course!

Finally, I've set up a new email address

cabell@karkeeweb.com

for scans and text to be included in the project.

What do you think?

I am glad to help in any way I can; whether writing text, providing scans, or in some other way. My collection is fairly limited. Outside the Storisende and BAF paperback editions of the biography, I have mostly focused on illustrated editions especially those illustrated by Pape. I have a few of the post biography works.

The following link is to the online illustrated bibliography of Ernest Bramah, which may be much less extensive than what we are considering, but may have some helpful ideas for constructing the Cabell website. http://www.ernestbramah.com/books.htm

With all of the editions of Jurgen that have been published over the years, that work would almost seem to warrant a page to itself.

I can't pledge to contribute writing or scans at this time, but thought it worth mentioning that I'm very interested in viewing the results. I suspect this would be a marquee example of the illustrated bibliography, perhaps whetting the appetite of LT coders so other examples could be built & hosted here on LT itself (for those wanting that option).

I would be happy to scan the covers of my Cabell books, at least the ones still needed. Feel free to make requests. All of mine are in my library.

I also have quite a few duplicates for sale.

>8 John_Thorne:
I want to make sure that the group is behind this. If we go forward, I really think it should be presented as a group effort of The Rabble Discuss Cabell. And anyway, it's just too large a task for one person alone.

I agree it should be a group effort, and that The Rabble is a good place to center it. But because it is such a large project, and some of the Rabble may not have the time, energy, resources, or materials to contribute much, I think we should attempt to recruit some 'outside' help. I will solicit Bill Godshalk (too bad Nelson Bond is no longer with us!). It's probably a good idea to try to get the folks at the Cabell Library at VCU with their key collection and/or the folks at the Alderman Library at UVA with their similar collection either on board or at least aware of the project and willing to help with scarce material and advice. Rabbler Jim Glanville has told VCU's Cabell collection librarian about us, so I guess I'll feel them out too. Suggestions for other recruits welcome.

I would suggest something like this: I will volunteer as webmaster for the new site. I have the tools and (barely sufficient) ability to handle the web work, manage the photos, etc. I suggest that another member (Crypto-Willobie?) take on the role of editor-in-chief. I've made a draft of what I think the site and its individual entries might look like, but I'd like the editor to revise the format as he sees it. I expect it will develop as we move forward.

Editor-in-chief? Well, 'managing editor', ok. I won't be handing down directives, but I can see the usefulness of funnelling contributions through a central point and formatting to a 'house style.' That said, I feel that the best way for me to offer useful input is to be completely frank, then flexible. I think the proto-site as set up by John is a great start but were I Horvendile, or Koshchei, I might do a few things differently...
For one, I'm not sure I see the point of dividing up the titles in groups by decade -- that suggests a particular structure that doesn't seem organic to the Canon. (Perhaps it's a web-programming convenience?). I suggest a preferable 'structure' might be just a raw list of titles (50-some?) in chronological order (Eagles; Line; Gallantry... Quiet Please; As I remember) as live links which when you click on them take you deeper into the detail. Or if a structure is necessary, then fewer than six. Perhaps 1) pre-Mcbride 1904-1913; 2) McBride thru end of Biography 1915-1930; 3) Three trilogies 1932-1942; 4) Last two trilogies (the turn to history)1943-1955. Even these interrupt the flow though- Soul 1913 looks forward to the McBride books; 1st Gentleman 1942 looks forward to the next trilogy etc..But I'm not the webmaster and I don't insist; this is just what I think.

We also need to consider the relation between the website and LibraryThing. Obviously the two are linked somehow, but I don't know this site's policies and don't want to step on anyone's toes.

I'm not sure there has to be an official link between the NCB (New Cabell Bibliography, to save me typing) and LT. It's a project that grew out out of conversations occurring on an LT thread, but it exists on a different site and isn't really officially sponsored by LT. Having a link to it on the Cabell author page should be just as freely permissible as having the link there to his Wikipedia page. On the other hand the LT Rabble , for now at least, will serve as the discussino group annex to the NCB, so perhaps some official connetion is desirable... not sure.

Once we have an agreed format, then as many people as possible should start writing text, using our template as a base. I would suggest we use Hall's designations, as those seem to be the most comprehensive and available. We should, however, add formal bibliographic descriptions as Brussel and Brewer. We can quote those, I think, as long as we are careful to attribute them properly.

How do we handle the short stories and magazine essays? In Brussel and Brewer the stories are listed first under the book they were later worked into and then in a separate Periodical section that excludes books. But in a real sense the published stories and the published books form one continuous chain -- see The Evolution of the Biography in Townsend of Lichfield. The Husband's Comedy was later worked into Rivet, but was called a 'novellette' when it was first published; The Ultimate Master and An Amateur Ghost are really distinct works from Domnei and Jurgen. Is it possible (or too cumbersome?) to intersperse the stories etc with the 'raw list' of books I mentioned above? The novels in bold and the mag contribs in italic? And on the story page would be a live link to the relevant book page; and on a book page would be links to relevant stories?

So as I see it, each person picks a title, and using the template, writes up a descriptive entry for each of Hall's variations, modified of course by later knowledge. If you have the examples and the capability, then make the appropriate scans as well. Everyone sends them to me. As webmaster, I'll put it all together, add scans (when available), and upload it, where the new entry is reviewed and approved by the editor.

This seems like a good way forward. I may start by working up Chivalry or Cords of Vanity, with bibliography excerpts and mag links to show what i mean.

As for additional resources such as libraries, I don't have any such connections, and I think we should certainly take advantage of any help we could get. I, for one, would be honored to have Mr. Godshalk and other such experts involved. However, that would be a group/editorial decision.

As I said above, let's get whoever we can. I think there are probably a fair number of possibly interested people, but they are scattered. It may be easier to seduce some of them if we can show them our starts. The proto site John put up is a great start; I think if we do a bit more work on it, tweaking it and incorporating more bibliographical text and commentary it should be even more seductive to helpers

I can provide scans of quite a few items, but certainly not all. We'll need as much group involvement here as possible. One immediate formatting issue - I am at present sizing the large versions of the pictures to 1200 pixels in that largest dimension. I chose this as a compromise between sufficient detail and download time, but looking back at it now the pictures seem a bit too large. Does this size seem appropriate? Once we get into production it will be a pain to change. If you can and do provide scans, don't worry about formatting. I will resize everything to fit - just send 'em nice and large so we have room to work with. One more thing about photos - send lots. We can work out the minimum we'll need for each entry, but remember that this is the web. We don't have the space issues we all have to work with in hard print, so we can add as much detail as we like, such as inscriptions, interesting bookplates, etc. - all subject to the editor's approval, of course!

I have a fair number of printings, jackets, etc though I suspect most of what I have John has too, and closer to his scanner. But we'll figure out what we have and then know what we need. When we get to items or jackets no one has, we may be able to the ask friendly libraries to help us out.

Finally, I've set up a new email address
cabell@karkeeweb.com
for scans and text to be included in the project.

That will make things so much easier. Some folks have it but in case they don't and need to contact me directly I'm at llwyd53(at)gmail.com.

What do you think?

Great, John, thanks... I think we on our way!

I think we are on our way as well. One thing I have learned from past experience is that it is important to have the structure nailed down before we get serious about populating it. There are simply too many internal links, etc., to make major changes easy after we get rolling.

I'm not crazy about the current arrangement either. It was a response to two things: a desire to list the works in chronological order, and an attempt to avoid an overly cluttered front page. Listing 50+ titles one-by-one can be done, of course, but what do we do about secondary material? Perhaps I can develop some sort of multi-column table for the index? If you can give me some ideas, then I'll build a few drafts we can work from. What I put up before was thrown together quickly, just to give folks an idea of what might be possible. At this point, we should consider everything as flexible.

I am also very much in favor of including magazine articles. Putting them into the pages for the individual books they were incorporated into, liked as you suggest, seems workable. One of my own pet desires is to scan a make available the original magazine version of The Eagle's Shadow. As far as I know this has never been done. I do have all of the issues, and would like to add this at some point.

I also agree with your suggestions about getting other folks involved. We should make a good start first, including some so folks can see this is more than just a pipe dream.

More detailed response later, but real quick...
I think the Saturday Evening Post, which still exists, might retain rights to the serialized form of Eagle's Shadow? I know that some of the Harper's stories, once freely available on Googlebooks became available only through a Harpers archive subscription once Harpers (which likewise still exists) realized they were out there.
But isn't the serialization of ES a different situation than the stories? The stories were all revised at least a little (some a lot) when they were absorbed into books, but ES was written first as a complete novel then just serialized. I only have pt.1 and have only done a partial comparisino but I found no changes in the part I looked at...

Progress report on the Cabell website

Over the last two months, John Thorne and I have been working on the proposed Cabell website on our own. The idea was not to exclude anyone, but rather we felt that to really get something so potentially massive off the ground a strong initial 'push' was required and that this would be easier to accomplish with a smaller, focused team rather than with a larger, if democratic, team.

Well, much of the structure is now in place -- it's not carved in stone, it's open for input and subject to modification, but now it's there to work on and play with. A brief tour:

Home Page http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/
Brief essay on Why a Cabell Site http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/cabell_why.html
Bibliographies http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/cabell_brewer_main.html (Brewer order)
and http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/cabell_chron_main.html (chronological order)
Some sample book pages:
http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/bibliography/manuel/chivalry/chiv_a1.htm...
http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/bibliography/manuel/melicent/mel_a1.html
http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/bibliography/florida/two_pirates.html
The bibliography is of course a massive undertaking. With a couple exceptions we have so far only worked on the pre-McBride titles (1904-1913, but also including later printings of these titles); for these we have most of the images up but only part of the collations and notes. When these are reasonably complete we will move on to the first half dozen McBride titles (1915-1920) including the zillion printings of various editions of Jurgen. Then, probably, 1921-1930, 1932-1942, and 1943-1955.

Among the features on the site will be our very own The Rabble Discuss Cabell. LibraryThing has generously consented to 'share' this discussion group with The Silver Stallion. It will still be hosted here on LT, but will be accessible from SS as well. Other features will include a links page, an area for Notes & Queries, and for essays and papers, book reviews of many kinds, a photo gallery, a glossary of names real and imaginary... and.. and...well you tell us...

Actually, you are 'us': the Rabble group is where The Silver Stallion site was born, so you are in a real way 'The Fellowship' of 'The Silver Stallion.' What can you contribute? that's up to you. We need:
-- Images of specific printings of various titles (for now, up though Domnei on the chronological list). Do you see one with no image yet? is your copy in better shape that the one we have posted? Send us a scan.
-- Are you interested in generating collations and notes for the bibliography? Tell us which ones you want to work on. Do you have input for the Commentary on specific titles?
-- Do you have, or do you want to write, reviews of books which can be posted on the Silver Stallion site? They should have some notional connection to Cabell, but they can be older books that influenced him or just parallel his work; or books from his heydey of the 20s and 30s that were influenced by the so-called 'Cabell school'; or later books by science fiction or fantasy authors that show his influence; or books related to his Southern (or '20s) milieu; or even books by the man himself.
-- Do you have questions for the Queries column? or Notes to offer of your observations? or longer essays? We will post them.
-- Do you have suggestions for improving what we already have up, or about features we need, or directions we should go? tell us.
-- Anyone want to start one of those Reading Threads where a bunch of us read or re-read a specific Cabell (or Cabell-related) title and then trade posts and opinions on it? Do it right here on The Rabble and it will also be on The Silver Stallion.

You can always post your suggestions right here in the Rabble group, on this thread or another. Or if you have scans or or other images, or technical input, you can contact John at the Webmaster link on the SS Homepage http://www.silverstallion.karkeeweb.com/cabellmain.html, or at cabell@karkeeweb.com (same address). Or if you have reviews or other bits of text to offer you can contact me at editor@silverstallion.karkeeweb.com, or post on my profile http://www.librarything.com/profile/Crypto-Willobie.

We also are beginning to reach out to academics with Cabellian interests, including several who contributed to the journals "Kalki" and "The Cabellian" back in the 1970s; and to fantasy and sf scholars, and to fans, bloggers, and collectors wherever we can find them. A lot of work to be done, a lot of fun to be had, a lot of books to play with and READ...

Bill Lloyd, aka Crypto-Willobie

P.S. I need help with a reference to complete the 'Why a Cabell Site?' essay. I can't locate my copy of Michael Swanwick's What Can Be Saved from the Wreckage and I may want to use part of his comment that Cabell's First Gentleman of America reminds him a bit of R. A. Lafferty. Anyone out there able to supply me? Thanks.

Quick note regarding the PS: I'm friends with Michael on Facebook, I just asked him.

Wow! The site looks great. Thanks, Bill and John, for all the hard work getting it started. I'm not able to spend as much time exploring it while I am at work, but did read the 'Why a Cabell Site?' essay which was excellent. Some of those pictures I had not seen before. Sorry I don't have the Swanwick booklet, but hopefully someone will be able to provide the quote. I know I will be re-visiting the site later to have a more extensive look.

-Dorwin

That was fast:

"The requirement to be true to the known facts led to moments that were unexpectedly affecting, particularly in the relationship between Don Luis and his adoptive father, the fanatic but loving Don Pedro Menendez. Had Cabell discovered the joys of historical research and naturalistic characterization earlier in his career, this might have proved a fruitful direction for him. As it is, the book reads like a sketch for one of R.A. Lafferty’s historical fantasies."

Thanks, anglemark...

Really, that is a fabulous beginning. My enthusiasm for Cabell outpaces my familiarity, at least at present, so I'll content myself with soaking it up and reading more of Cabell before I attempt to contribute anything.

I am intrigued by the R.A. Lafferty reference, as I've a title in my TBR pile ....

Finally, so pleased to see the site is linked both to Rabble specifically and LT, generally.

New site is going to be a real touchstone. Its the exact site I was looking for when I first got on the internet 17 years ago. Its this kind of work thats going to plug that gaping hole in the Library Of America which I find so ridiculous. Thank you gentlemen for the work you have taken on.