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1tomcatMurr
As announced on the old thread, I am returning to my Russian exile.
Here is the old thread:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/68511
This week I have been reading mainly about Russian philosophers. One that has really caught my attention is Peter Lavrov, who was one of the main populist thinkers in the 1870s and 1880s. He was especially interested in history, and put forward his own theory of history a la Hegel/Marx.
He said that history is driven by thinking individuals motivated by two impulses of criticism, and idealisation, the first to destroy what already exists, and the second to build something better.
Progress consists in the development of consciousness and in the incorporation of truth and justice in social institutions: it is a process of individuals who aim at a transformation of their culture.
At the same time, he warned that the idea of ‘progress’ is an illusion and is not a law of history. Historiography involves the selection of significant data from the amorphous mass of historical material, and that this selection process is subjective, due to the social idea adopted by the scholar. I think that has many similarities to Tolstoy’s theory of history as put forward in the vexing theoretical chapters in War and Peace. Berlin cites De Maistre as an influence on Tolstoy, but I can’t help feeling that Lavrov was equally influential.
There is much richness in Russian thought that was obscured from the West by the Revolution and the subsequent domination of Marxist /Leninist thought.
I have also been studying this picture on my desktop:
Surikov’s The Morning of the Execution of the Streltsy.
The Streltsy were a kind of urban and rural militia formed by Ivan the Terrible in the mid 16th century. They were open to anyone of a certain class and were given the right to bear arms and defend the cities in times of trouble. Throughout subsequent Romanov rule, the streltsy acted as a kind of check on Romanov ambitions and were frequently involved in peasant and Cossack uprisings. They represented the forces of reaction, especially during the reign of Peter the great, who was trying to modernise Russia. After one such uprising, which happened while Peter was abroad, Peter returned in great fury and destroyed the streltsy executing the ring leaders. The picture shows this event.
What’s interesting about it, though, is that the picture focuses on the families and belongings of the streltsy, rather than the executions (the gibbets can be glimpsed in the distance on the right of the picture.) Surikov focuses on the wider historical picture, the conflict between the Old Russia and the New. In this way, he also avoids charges of subversion, by not dwelling on the way the autocrat removed opposition, the actual executions themselves.
Two historical ironies arise from this:
1. The picture was first exhibited in Petersburg on the very day of the assassination of Alexander II, which subsequently ushered in a period of great repression, with revolutionaries rounded up and shot, just like in the picture.
2. The picture can also be seen as a foreshadowing of the terrible purges of the Red Army under Stalin during the 1930s.
Here is the old thread:
http://www.librarything.com/topic/68511
This week I have been reading mainly about Russian philosophers. One that has really caught my attention is Peter Lavrov, who was one of the main populist thinkers in the 1870s and 1880s. He was especially interested in history, and put forward his own theory of history a la Hegel/Marx.
He said that history is driven by thinking individuals motivated by two impulses of criticism, and idealisation, the first to destroy what already exists, and the second to build something better.
Progress consists in the development of consciousness and in the incorporation of truth and justice in social institutions: it is a process of individuals who aim at a transformation of their culture.
At the same time, he warned that the idea of ‘progress’ is an illusion and is not a law of history. Historiography involves the selection of significant data from the amorphous mass of historical material, and that this selection process is subjective, due to the social idea adopted by the scholar. I think that has many similarities to Tolstoy’s theory of history as put forward in the vexing theoretical chapters in War and Peace. Berlin cites De Maistre as an influence on Tolstoy, but I can’t help feeling that Lavrov was equally influential.
There is much richness in Russian thought that was obscured from the West by the Revolution and the subsequent domination of Marxist /Leninist thought.
I have also been studying this picture on my desktop:
Surikov’s The Morning of the Execution of the Streltsy.
The Streltsy were a kind of urban and rural militia formed by Ivan the Terrible in the mid 16th century. They were open to anyone of a certain class and were given the right to bear arms and defend the cities in times of trouble. Throughout subsequent Romanov rule, the streltsy acted as a kind of check on Romanov ambitions and were frequently involved in peasant and Cossack uprisings. They represented the forces of reaction, especially during the reign of Peter the great, who was trying to modernise Russia. After one such uprising, which happened while Peter was abroad, Peter returned in great fury and destroyed the streltsy executing the ring leaders. The picture shows this event.
What’s interesting about it, though, is that the picture focuses on the families and belongings of the streltsy, rather than the executions (the gibbets can be glimpsed in the distance on the right of the picture.) Surikov focuses on the wider historical picture, the conflict between the Old Russia and the New. In this way, he also avoids charges of subversion, by not dwelling on the way the autocrat removed opposition, the actual executions themselves.
Two historical ironies arise from this:
1. The picture was first exhibited in Petersburg on the very day of the assassination of Alexander II, which subsequently ushered in a period of great repression, with revolutionaries rounded up and shot, just like in the picture.
2. The picture can also be seen as a foreshadowing of the terrible purges of the Red Army under Stalin during the 1930s.
2zenomax
The idea of progress as an illusion - nice.
And yes, I can see the link between Lavrov and Tolstoy in what you have written.
And yes, I can see the link between Lavrov and Tolstoy in what you have written.
3polutropos
Murr,
wonderful ideas as always.
Winston Churchill is quoted (I am sure this is not originally his thought) as saying "History is written by the victors."
The victors will inevitably present themselves as better than the opposition, better than the past. Progress is inevitably embraced by the victors, whether it is real or totally illusory.
Is our society not equally beholden to bread and circuses as the Romans were? Have we experienced progress?
wonderful ideas as always.
Winston Churchill is quoted (I am sure this is not originally his thought) as saying "History is written by the victors."
The victors will inevitably present themselves as better than the opposition, better than the past. Progress is inevitably embraced by the victors, whether it is real or totally illusory.
Is our society not equally beholden to bread and circuses as the Romans were? Have we experienced progress?
4tomcatMurr
oh Polutropos, good questions!
This is what Lavrov says in answer to them:
We stand at the end of the historical process; the entire past is related to our ideal as a series of preparatory steps leading inevitably to a definite end. This is the illusion of progress.
Auden (Ha! everything always comes back to Auden!):
History to the defeated may say Alas
but cannot help nor pardon.
This is what Lavrov says in answer to them:
We stand at the end of the historical process; the entire past is related to our ideal as a series of preparatory steps leading inevitably to a definite end. This is the illusion of progress.
Auden (Ha! everything always comes back to Auden!):
History to the defeated may say Alas
but cannot help nor pardon.
5tomcatMurr
It's been a productive day. Finally managed to post a review on David Foster Wallace, whom I read over the summer:
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2009/09/supposedly-fun-thing-ill-never-do-again.h...
And some thoughts on Tolstoy and Turgenev prompted by my reading of Mirsky:
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2009/09/fragment-2809.html
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2009/09/supposedly-fun-thing-ill-never-do-again.h...
And some thoughts on Tolstoy and Turgenev prompted by my reading of Mirsky:
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2009/09/fragment-2809.html
6polutropos
#4
But surely "series of preparatory steps leading inevitably to a definite end" does NOT in itself mean progress at all. Most certainly an ILLUSION of progress.
The reigns of Hitler, of Stalin, of Pol Pot, Idi Amin, of Nero, Caligula, Ivan the Terrible, Putin, anyone at all, those are all preparatory steps leading inevitably to a definite end. Do any of them suggest progress?
Even if we took the opposite tack and argued Enlightenment, the fall of the Berlin Wall, medical advances like pennicilin, polio vaccine, what have you. Can we out of those posit "progress"? I am not convinced.
But surely "series of preparatory steps leading inevitably to a definite end" does NOT in itself mean progress at all. Most certainly an ILLUSION of progress.
The reigns of Hitler, of Stalin, of Pol Pot, Idi Amin, of Nero, Caligula, Ivan the Terrible, Putin, anyone at all, those are all preparatory steps leading inevitably to a definite end. Do any of them suggest progress?
Even if we took the opposite tack and argued Enlightenment, the fall of the Berlin Wall, medical advances like pennicilin, polio vaccine, what have you. Can we out of those posit "progress"? I am not convinced.
7polutropos
And from a different perspective altogether, I came across this, which would clearly support the argument of not progress, but descent into destruction:
"Although Earth has undergone many periods of significant environmental change, the planet's environment has been unusually stable for the past 10,000 years1, 2, 3. This period of stability — known to geologists as the Holocene — has seen human civilizations arise, develop and thrive. Such stability may now be under threat. Since the Industrial Revolution, a new era has arisen, the Anthropocene4, in which human actions have become the main driver of global environmental change5. This could see human activities push the Earth system outside the stable environmental state of the Holocene, with consequences that are detrimental or even catastrophic for large parts of the world"
from http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/full/461472a.html
"Although Earth has undergone many periods of significant environmental change, the planet's environment has been unusually stable for the past 10,000 years1, 2, 3. This period of stability — known to geologists as the Holocene — has seen human civilizations arise, develop and thrive. Such stability may now be under threat. Since the Industrial Revolution, a new era has arisen, the Anthropocene4, in which human actions have become the main driver of global environmental change5. This could see human activities push the Earth system outside the stable environmental state of the Holocene, with consequences that are detrimental or even catastrophic for large parts of the world"
from http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v461/n7263/full/461472a.html
8Porius
Surikov's great gallimaufry of suffering takes your breath away. That fabulous fruitcake of an art work is immensely satisfying.
9tonikat
>5 tomcatMurr: - I really enjoyed that review/comprison of DFW and Dickens, fresh and true! -- I am still working my way through that volume of DFW, and despite my still slow progress on Infiite Jest, I just love him and his style, you are right, that is so engaging (and provacative of reactions like mine, though I can have too much of readign him). I also tend to agree about his insight and Pynchon's being perhaps what will last - but then I have to be careful after my Housman heresies that I do not start to consider things that are perhaps beyond my consideration. I do know I now feel better about my total failure ever to have mastered the professional smile, though I am still not totally comfy with the failed professional smile, maybe my heart ain't in it (and thats what gets spotted -- but often not as a good thing as its the smile thats seen to fail not the fact it would never have been a true smile to start with (or worse maybe pointing to that fact all along...oh dear now I feel guilty)).
Good luck with the Russians, will catch up with that side of your thread asap.
Good luck with the Russians, will catch up with that side of your thread asap.
10Porius
Poor Wallace was an artist. He had Wilson's Faculty X though didn't possess a reliable robot (Colin Wilson again) to deal with all the faces that he was forced to meet. Oh, all those faces!? "How tiresome," as Lucia's Georgie would say.
I spent a lot of time in my father's grocery as a youngster and got a good look at every sort of face before I was ten years old. I got a good peek at Malcolm X, Elija Mohammed, and the local drunk, the Swede, who got his ass handed to him every Friday night by the neighborhood toughs. I observed every sort of 'virtue' and 'vice', bookie, baker, beer man, padre (of all sorts of persuasions). You name it, I saw it, all before I was thirteen. And what I missed there I saw at the race tracks, as I also worked for my uncle who was a trainer. I sampled all the various and sundry Professional Smiles in the barns and the tack room (where the jockeys gathered). Suffice it to say, that I know just where to put the Professional Smile flashed at me by the uppity salesperson at a store for fancy attire. Not that I get there often.
I also put much store by the bit about the monkey looking into the mirror and the absence of the philosopher's knowing expression therein.
I spent a lot of time in my father's grocery as a youngster and got a good look at every sort of face before I was ten years old. I got a good peek at Malcolm X, Elija Mohammed, and the local drunk, the Swede, who got his ass handed to him every Friday night by the neighborhood toughs. I observed every sort of 'virtue' and 'vice', bookie, baker, beer man, padre (of all sorts of persuasions). You name it, I saw it, all before I was thirteen. And what I missed there I saw at the race tracks, as I also worked for my uncle who was a trainer. I sampled all the various and sundry Professional Smiles in the barns and the tack room (where the jockeys gathered). Suffice it to say, that I know just where to put the Professional Smile flashed at me by the uppity salesperson at a store for fancy attire. Not that I get there often.
I also put much store by the bit about the monkey looking into the mirror and the absence of the philosopher's knowing expression therein.
11tomcatMurr
Wow, thanks for such a great discussion everybody.
P, i think it might help to define progress more carefully. on the one hand there is the meaning of 'improvement' or 'advance'. I think no one would deny that there has been historical progress in the areas of technology and science for example. We are now more able to feed ourselves than before, kill each other in larger numbers than before, communicate faster and more reliably over large distances, more people live in democratic freedom from the oppression of backward looking religions, more people can read and are better educated, life spans are longer and infant mortality lower etc etc. of course there are drawbacks, every advance has is its opportunity cost, as it were.
On the other hand, there is the meaning in a very general Hegelian sense of progress as a goal of history, an 'end' towards which history is moving, a general forward movement caused by the alternation between thesis, antithesis and synthesis. It's this meaning for example, that Fukiyama means in his The End of History It's this meaning which Lavrov is warning against. Hegel was a huge influence on all Russian thinkers, as he was of course on Marx, and Lavrov was largely reacting against the Hegelian view of progress.
Tony, don't be abashed please by your Housman heresies, as you call them. It was a fascinating discussion. About DFW, so far, that essay is the only DFW I have read. I had a look at the others in that collection, but they seemed to be about American TV and tennis, two subjects I have absolutely not the remotest knowledge of, so any satire directed at those would be largely meaningless to me. I am greatly looking forward to reading IJ in the Salon next year.
Poor, I'm looking around for the Colin Wilson you recommended to me earlier. I used to have a copy, but I must have leant it to someone. Meanwhile I look forward to more instalments of your memoirs. Seriously.
P, i think it might help to define progress more carefully. on the one hand there is the meaning of 'improvement' or 'advance'. I think no one would deny that there has been historical progress in the areas of technology and science for example. We are now more able to feed ourselves than before, kill each other in larger numbers than before, communicate faster and more reliably over large distances, more people live in democratic freedom from the oppression of backward looking religions, more people can read and are better educated, life spans are longer and infant mortality lower etc etc. of course there are drawbacks, every advance has is its opportunity cost, as it were.
On the other hand, there is the meaning in a very general Hegelian sense of progress as a goal of history, an 'end' towards which history is moving, a general forward movement caused by the alternation between thesis, antithesis and synthesis. It's this meaning for example, that Fukiyama means in his The End of History It's this meaning which Lavrov is warning against. Hegel was a huge influence on all Russian thinkers, as he was of course on Marx, and Lavrov was largely reacting against the Hegelian view of progress.
Tony, don't be abashed please by your Housman heresies, as you call them. It was a fascinating discussion. About DFW, so far, that essay is the only DFW I have read. I had a look at the others in that collection, but they seemed to be about American TV and tennis, two subjects I have absolutely not the remotest knowledge of, so any satire directed at those would be largely meaningless to me. I am greatly looking forward to reading IJ in the Salon next year.
Poor, I'm looking around for the Colin Wilson you recommended to me earlier. I used to have a copy, but I must have leant it to someone. Meanwhile I look forward to more instalments of your memoirs. Seriously.
12urania1
Regarding previous discussion of "the end of history," I see two problems: (1) What exactly do we mean when we use the term? Fukiyama's use has been much criticized. Kojeve, for example, has his own take on the the term. The debate is far too complicated to be dealt with in a short post. I considered the term a vexed one for both Marxists and post-Marxists. The moment Marx et al., use the term, they leap into the realm of metaphysical philosophy, which they ignore. In some ways, the idea mirrors that of Christianity - the end of history arrives when eternal paradise arrives. Hmmm . . .
13tonikat
>12 urania1: - the end of history arrives when eternal paradise arrives. Hmmm . . .
or is that just the end of a personal history - or alternatively... (EDIT i.e. hell! or something in between I understand some feel).
I never liked the idea Fukuyama peddled in a number of ways - also never got passed the first chapter. And this stuff really interested me then. I may be wrong, maybe I need to understand exactly what he was saying better but the phrase just makes me slightly annoyed.
or is that just the end of a personal history - or alternatively... (EDIT i.e. hell! or something in between I understand some feel).
I never liked the idea Fukuyama peddled in a number of ways - also never got passed the first chapter. And this stuff really interested me then. I may be wrong, maybe I need to understand exactly what he was saying better but the phrase just makes me slightly annoyed.
14urania1
>13 tonikat: - no, I mean "human history" there.
18urania1
But Tony,
All the interesting people will be in Hell. Do you really want to hang out with all the registered Christians (they're a pretty brutal lot these days)? I say let them have heaven. I don't want to spend eternity singing "Holy, Holy Holy."
All the interesting people will be in Hell. Do you really want to hang out with all the registered Christians (they're a pretty brutal lot these days)? I say let them have heaven. I don't want to spend eternity singing "Holy, Holy Holy."
19tomcatMurr
Hell definitely sounds better. Even the Muslim idea of paradise sounds pretty grim: all those virgins. Virgins are hard work!
20urania1
>19 tomcatMurr: Well . . . "hardness" is required, but then again one does have eternity. Are the virgins male or female?
21urania1
On the other hand, if history doesn't come to an end and my karma is good, I'd like to be the divine LolaWalser at some point. That would be a definite step up for me.
22tomcatMurr
lol! for all us I think!
23Medellia
My father tells us that old saying--I think it may be Irish-- "There are only two things to worry about: either you are well or you are sick. If you are well, then there is nothing to worry about, but if you are sick there are two things for you to worry about: either you get well or you will die. If you get well, then there is nothing to worry about. If you die, then there are two things to worry about: either you go up or you go down. If you go up, then there is nothing to worry about. But if you go down, you will be so busy shaking hands with old friends you won't have time to worry."
24tonikat
I hope its that much fun.
Surely heaven would only be heaven if it really was heavenly and not that it conformed to the stereotype of praises etc.
Surely heaven would only be heaven if it really was heavenly and not that it conformed to the stereotype of praises etc.
25janeajones
No heaven, no hell -- just a great merging into the universe -- if we're lucky.
26urania1
But I don't like some of those neutrons. They're so snobby. My neutrons are okay. But those others? Merging with them is just too kinky. And tachyons? Don't even mention it.
27tomcatMurr
and quark? what a fucking mess, as DFW would say.
29janeajones
I rather like kinky messes -- sounds far more interesting than singing hallelujahs!
30urania1
Okay, I do get kinky with protons from time to time, but please don't tell anybody. We would shock even the Marquis de Sade. We're disgusting.
31tomcatMurr
oh the fun that can be had with yoghurt!
32tomcatMurr
(i have no idea really what we are talking about at this point, but the herring are delicious)
33urania1
>31 tomcatMurr: Murrushka,
I would not do it in a box.
I would not do it with a fox.
But mention yogurt in a yellow yurt,
and I yell joyfully and raise my skirt.
I would not do it in a box.
I would not do it with a fox.
But mention yogurt in a yellow yurt,
and I yell joyfully and raise my skirt.
34urania1
I, too, no longer know of what I speak. Of course I suffered a TBI in late July. It will be at least a year before I am responsible for anything I say.
36tomcatMurr
So after this intense metaphysical discussion, I think it's time to return to earth.
This week, I completed A History of Russian Literature and posted a review here:
http://www.thelectern.blogspot.com/
I am one chapter away from completing Billington. It's a slow read, and when I get bogged down in the intricacies of the Liberals' position during the Revolution of 1905, I have been turning to fiction to soothe my burning brow.
I have read Family Happiness, a tale by Tolstoy from 1859, a stupendous foreshadowing of Anna Karenina. I hope to have time to write about that in more detail this week.
But Murr, I hear you all cry in consternation, we thought you were doing Dostoevsky, not Tolstoy!? Dear Friends and gentle readers be not alarmed, I am, I am doing Dostoevsky, and indeed Fyodor Mikhailovich doth beckon from the cupboard under the stairs, but I am determined to finish Billington and Walicki first before returning to my studies of the gaunt hairy one.
(I shall confess to a secret, growing desire to embark on a Tolstoy epic when -if- I complete my Dostoevsky exile.)
Our picture this week is Aivazovsky's: Brig "Mercury" after a victory over Two Turkish Ships:
Aivazovsky specialised in maritime paintings. His treatment of sea and sky is especially fantastic and in this picture reminds me strongly of his contemporary Atkinson Grimshaw.
Mussorgsky wrote: To unknown shores must be our cry, fearless through the storms, on past all the shallows... on to new shores, there is no turning back. during the uncertain early years of Alexander II's reign.
This week, I completed A History of Russian Literature and posted a review here:
http://www.thelectern.blogspot.com/
I am one chapter away from completing Billington. It's a slow read, and when I get bogged down in the intricacies of the Liberals' position during the Revolution of 1905, I have been turning to fiction to soothe my burning brow.
I have read Family Happiness, a tale by Tolstoy from 1859, a stupendous foreshadowing of Anna Karenina. I hope to have time to write about that in more detail this week.
But Murr, I hear you all cry in consternation, we thought you were doing Dostoevsky, not Tolstoy!? Dear Friends and gentle readers be not alarmed, I am, I am doing Dostoevsky, and indeed Fyodor Mikhailovich doth beckon from the cupboard under the stairs, but I am determined to finish Billington and Walicki first before returning to my studies of the gaunt hairy one.
(I shall confess to a secret, growing desire to embark on a Tolstoy epic when -if- I complete my Dostoevsky exile.)
Our picture this week is Aivazovsky's: Brig "Mercury" after a victory over Two Turkish Ships:
Aivazovsky specialised in maritime paintings. His treatment of sea and sky is especially fantastic and in this picture reminds me strongly of his contemporary Atkinson Grimshaw.
Mussorgsky wrote: To unknown shores must be our cry, fearless through the storms, on past all the shallows... on to new shores, there is no turning back. during the uncertain early years of Alexander II's reign.
37janeajones
Such an immense loneliness in this painting...
38zenomax
... and great beauty at the same time. Murr, you have an unerring eye for the right visual image.
The sea with the chink of golden light across it is splendid.
And the battle torn sails!
In my mind the sea is an oft - times companion.
The sea with the chink of golden light across it is splendid.
And the battle torn sails!
In my mind the sea is an oft - times companion.
39urania1
Ah Murr,
I love the painting. I have a mezzotint (that has been sitting at a friend's shop for nine years waiting to be framed) of which this painting reminds me.
I love the painting. I have a mezzotint (that has been sitting at a friend's shop for nine years waiting to be framed) of which this painting reminds me.
40tomcatMurr
I'm encouraged to get such a positive response to the art. I'll post more Aivazovsky. It seems to me his art has a metaphorical edge that is often lacking in maritime paintings. His paintings seem to be the equivalent of Conrad's sea tales in that respect.
41tomcatMurr
I have completed a review of Tolstoy's tale Family Happiness and posted it here.
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/
42Porius
Brings to mind Tolstoy's little bit about 'Birds and the Net'. Too many birds and the net with holes and much too small, etc. etc. etc. as Yul Brynner might say.
43tomcatMurr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3upOVio7tvU&feature=PlayList&p=A4B9DA7D2E...
Oh, he was a mensch. *sigh*
Oh, he was a mensch. *sigh*
44Porius
can you believe that the ineffable Claire Bloom was married to that putz Phillip Roth? She was fine in THE LIMELIGHT with Charles Chaplin. What a cast in KARAMATZOV. Lee J Cobb. Maria Schell. Wm. Shatner. & co. & co. Brynner sort of reminds me of a cross between GI Gurdjieff & nuncle Al Crow-lee. A mensch he certainly was. I loved YB and the ever lovely Deborah Kerr in THE KING AND I. And DK in THE BLACK NARCISSUS. Seraphick beauty without equal. She brought real tears to my eyes in THE NIGHT OF THE IGUANA, with another favorite of mine, though somewhat long- in- the-tooth, at the time, Ava Gardner. AG one of the few to show up at that Real Poets' , no glee-man he, Robert Graves' funeral.
God, I forgot my very favorite in TNofTIguana: Richard Jenkins, alias Richard Burton. RJ took his surname from the great Phillip Burton. PB wrote a fine novel about WS: YOU MY BROTHER.
God, I forgot my very favorite in TNofTIguana: Richard Jenkins, alias Richard Burton. RJ took his surname from the great Phillip Burton. PB wrote a fine novel about WS: YOU MY BROTHER.
46Porius
And 'Patriotic' Gore?
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6...
UNDER MILKWOOD!!!
Listen to RB closely. After you listen ever so closely you can appreciate Hopkins' poetry with more appreciation, noh?
http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/the_way_we_live/article6...
UNDER MILKWOOD!!!
Listen to RB closely. After you listen ever so closely you can appreciate Hopkins' poetry with more appreciation, noh?
48zenomax
Well chosen p., interesting to hear T's views, and lovely ending to part 2 with the stills of AR and musical accompaniement.
Once again you've captured the moment. Within the hour I plan to sit down to Stalker which arrived from Amazon on the weekend.
I rather think I need to get hold of AR and Mirror at some point too.
Once again you've captured the moment. Within the hour I plan to sit down to Stalker which arrived from Amazon on the weekend.
I rather think I need to get hold of AR and Mirror at some point too.
49zenomax
Murr - do you have any contact with modern day Russians at all? My impressions from limited contact is that they are not so different from the people D and Zamayatin et al wrote about.
From those with peasant faces to the intelligentsia (although in post communist era the peasants walk around as if they own the country, the intelligentsia all appear nervous and worried - at least that is what it felt like 10 or 15 years ago when I had limited contact), they could have stepped out of the pages of a novel.
But admirable all the same, despite their faults and false starts. Sometimes I feel that they are almost a race of colossuses.
From those with peasant faces to the intelligentsia (although in post communist era the peasants walk around as if they own the country, the intelligentsia all appear nervous and worried - at least that is what it felt like 10 or 15 years ago when I had limited contact), they could have stepped out of the pages of a novel.
But admirable all the same, despite their faults and false starts. Sometimes I feel that they are almost a race of colossuses.
50Porius
Look at all the Russian tennis amazons: Dementieva, Safina, Konstantinov, they pretty much dominate women's tennis save for a couple of American sisters and a Serb or two. When the Detroit Red Wings had all those Russians, Fetisov, Koslov, Federov, Konstantinov, Larionov, I watched hockey faithfully. They played a brand of hockey unknown to the rest. The Swedes are pretty dam good these days. But the Russians played a championship game to their patball.
51bobmcconnaughey
though to be handicapped, physically, in modern Russia, seems to be pretty tantamount to a life in hell. I imagine it's all part of reinventing capitalism, circa the USA during the age of the robber barons. I am glad my mom's grandfather got the fk out of Russia! When i was in HS i had this wish that i had been named something romantic like..i dunno. nikolai or dimitri...but, as a friend pointed out, i would've ended up as scholmo.
53tomcatMurr
Thanks for those wonderful interviews, Poor. Back in my Pre Taiwan days, I had all Tarkovksy's movies on those old VHS videos, copied from the TV (seems like another world: Tarkovsky movies on TV??!!!!!). Stalker is particulary good: I found myself looking at nature in a completely different way after seeing this movie. His last movie (name escapes me) is also excellent. I should try to get hold of them again.
Is there really a Tennis player named Dementieva? Sounds hilarious.
Zeno, there is a sizeable Russian population in Taiwan, mainly associated with the Orthodox church which has a seminary here. One of my closest friends in Taiwan was a Russian, but he sadly died a few months ago. I spent many wild and drunken evenings with him and his friends. in my experience, Russians are able to go from wild elation to deepest despair in minutes. Of course, Vodka helps. And yes, I saw in many of them the characters from Dostoevsky's novels, the same way that one can still see Dickens's characters on the streets of London.
Bob, I agree, being handicapped or special needs as we have to call them nowawadys, must be very grim in Russia. I fear that contemporary Russian culture is turning more and more autocratic and right wing, as this article shows. The influence of the Orthodox church is, as always, pernicious.
http://www.artnewsonline.com/issues/article.asp?art_id=2757
Is there really a Tennis player named Dementieva? Sounds hilarious.
Zeno, there is a sizeable Russian population in Taiwan, mainly associated with the Orthodox church which has a seminary here. One of my closest friends in Taiwan was a Russian, but he sadly died a few months ago. I spent many wild and drunken evenings with him and his friends. in my experience, Russians are able to go from wild elation to deepest despair in minutes. Of course, Vodka helps. And yes, I saw in many of them the characters from Dostoevsky's novels, the same way that one can still see Dickens's characters on the streets of London.
Bob, I agree, being handicapped or special needs as we have to call them nowawadys, must be very grim in Russia. I fear that contemporary Russian culture is turning more and more autocratic and right wing, as this article shows. The influence of the Orthodox church is, as always, pernicious.
http://www.artnewsonline.com/issues/article.asp?art_id=2757
54urania1
Oh governments always understand art. It all sounds like the religious right in the US trying to block a museum from gaining anymore federal grants because it showed a collection of Richard Mapplethorpe's photography.
55tomcatMurr
Yes, except the artists in this case are faced with prison.
:(
:(
56bobmcconnaughey
>54 urania1: - ol' Jesse (Helms) was trying to do a lot more damage than just w/drawing partial funding to a museum. Our favorite NC senator was doing his best to totally gut the the Nat. Endowment for the Arts for having supporting Serano's "Piss Christ". When Helms died, only 1! NC state senator voted against a resolution in the state senate praising his legacy.
(about the only good thing i can say about Helms was that when it came to action on behalf of individual constituents, Helm's office really didn't discriminate. A close friend who'd taught biostatistics (as did his wife, at the time) in Nicaragua during the Sandinstas' brief period of governance was, none the less, greatly aided by Helm's office in their adoption of two Guatemalan infants.)
(about the only good thing i can say about Helms was that when it came to action on behalf of individual constituents, Helm's office really didn't discriminate. A close friend who'd taught biostatistics (as did his wife, at the time) in Nicaragua during the Sandinstas' brief period of governance was, none the less, greatly aided by Helm's office in their adoption of two Guatemalan infants.)
57urania1
>56 bobmcconnaughey: Oh Bob, I am so ashamed to hail from the same state as JH. I lived under his reign of terror back in the days when he called my alma mater Commie Hill.
58tomcatMurr
>47 Porius:, 48
Would it be fair to say that when we have utterly destroyed nature, Tarkovsky will be the only cineaste able to show us how it was?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fysiepJ93M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=718O6L2fWqY&feature=related
Would it be fair to say that when we have utterly destroyed nature, Tarkovsky will be the only cineaste able to show us how it was?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fysiepJ93M&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=718O6L2fWqY&feature=related
60Porius
Poor Nature! Rodney makes me feel better, it's how I feel too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XetAyPWRy0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XetAyPWRy0
61zenomax
#58 - Yes.
It is worthy of note that for all the millions spent on an average blockbuster no one (apart perhaps for Kurosawa?) could create such visual dreamimg.
It is worthy of note that for all the millions spent on an average blockbuster no one (apart perhaps for Kurosawa?) could create such visual dreamimg.
62tomcatMurr
So I have finished and reviewed Walicki's History of Russian Thought here:
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/
I have also finished the third of my Big Russian Books: Billington's The Icon and the Axe, which I will not be reviewing. I will, however, urge anyone with an interest in Russian culture or history to drop everything and read it. At the end, Billington reflects on the cyclical nature of Russian history, and has this to say about that old canard, "History repeats itself":
The historian can, of course, never know precisely how the past relates to the present...nor can he know precisely how the inherited forms of art and thought effect the world of power politics and economic necessity. But it is his duty to point out those themes which sound like echoes from the past...
Eminently wise words, I feel.
Meanwhile I have managed to acquire by the most amazing luck, Nabakov's literal translation and commentary of Pushkin's Eugene Onegin. It's in two volumes - the commentary alone is 900 pages- and represents the apotheosis of Russian scholarship, and the pinnacle of Nabakov's non-fictional career. I have been dipping in and out of it and trying not to drool incontinently over its pages. I am seriously in lust with this book. Here is an excerpt from the commentary which gives a taste of its flavour.
Canto three stanza 10 line 14/Grandison:
At this point, Chizhevski, in his commentary to EO (p237) is again moved to misinform the reader: "Grandison - the hero of Richardson's Clarrissa Harlowe." He is also under the impression that Pushkin read these novels in Russian.
Another Aivazovsky: The Ninth Wave
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/
I have also finished the third of my Big Russian Books: Billington's The Icon and the Axe, which I will not be reviewing. I will, however, urge anyone with an interest in Russian culture or history to drop everything and read it. At the end, Billington reflects on the cyclical nature of Russian history, and has this to say about that old canard, "History repeats itself":
The historian can, of course, never know precisely how the past relates to the present...nor can he know precisely how the inherited forms of art and thought effect the world of power politics and economic necessity. But it is his duty to point out those themes which sound like echoes from the past...
Eminently wise words, I feel.
Meanwhile I have managed to acquire by the most amazing luck, Nabakov's literal translation and commentary of Pushkin's Eugene Onegin. It's in two volumes - the commentary alone is 900 pages- and represents the apotheosis of Russian scholarship, and the pinnacle of Nabakov's non-fictional career. I have been dipping in and out of it and trying not to drool incontinently over its pages. I am seriously in lust with this book. Here is an excerpt from the commentary which gives a taste of its flavour.
Canto three stanza 10 line 14/Grandison:
At this point, Chizhevski, in his commentary to EO (p237) is again moved to misinform the reader: "Grandison - the hero of Richardson's Clarrissa Harlowe." He is also under the impression that Pushkin read these novels in Russian.
Another Aivazovsky: The Ninth Wave
63aluvalibri
Marvelous painting, Murr.
It reminds me a bit of both Winslow Homer (the subject and the waves) and Frederick Church (the sunset).
It reminds me a bit of both Winslow Homer (the subject and the waves) and Frederick Church (the sunset).
65tonikat
#62 love th painting -- also put me in mind of the one robin williams' character had painted in good will hunting that will took such a shine to analysing.
Love the green of the sea.
Love the green of the sea.
66tomcatMurr
Winslow Homer I know but the others I have yet to encounter. Good, thank you everybody!
67tomcatMurr
I am being ravished abducted abused rolled raped violated vanquished defeated bewitched bothered and bewildered by Nabokov's translation and commentary of Eugene Onegin.
So picture me, if you will, gentle reader, at my kitchen table, with Charles Johnston's translation, Douglas Hofstadter's translation (he of Godel Escher Bach fame -anyone read that?), Nabokov's literal translation, and the huge commentary, which weighs about 2 kilos and is the size of a brick, making it difficult to hold a herring let alone a vodka glass at the same time while I read, all spread out in front of me, switching like a pussy possessed between the three versions and the commentary, taking notes, thinking, arguing with Vladimir.
I have read EO I think three times before, and of course loved it. But this experience has opened up a whole new level of meaning and depth for me. Nabokov says that a literal translation of a poem robs the verse of its 'bloom', which I agree with. But the commentary adds lustre and shine to the poem in spades!
It goes into fabulously nerdish and pedantic detail about costume, food, lighting, the state of the language in 1820, Pushkin's travels, French theatre in Petersburg, Theocritus, carriages and hats, alliteration, the dandy; Vladimir takes passing pot shots at previous translators and Russian commentators, the Soviet government for restricting his access to research materials; he quotes freely in all the European languages from 18 century literature -- his knowledge is colossal but never stupefying.
I am coming up to the end of Canto One. I hope to be able to formulate more considered thoughts as I go to share; but at the moment, I am in the first flush of love and just revelling in the whole experience.
Here is Repin's picture of Pushkin reciting his poetry at the Lycee exam.
So picture me, if you will, gentle reader, at my kitchen table, with Charles Johnston's translation, Douglas Hofstadter's translation (he of Godel Escher Bach fame -anyone read that?), Nabokov's literal translation, and the huge commentary, which weighs about 2 kilos and is the size of a brick, making it difficult to hold a herring let alone a vodka glass at the same time while I read, all spread out in front of me, switching like a pussy possessed between the three versions and the commentary, taking notes, thinking, arguing with Vladimir.
I have read EO I think three times before, and of course loved it. But this experience has opened up a whole new level of meaning and depth for me. Nabokov says that a literal translation of a poem robs the verse of its 'bloom', which I agree with. But the commentary adds lustre and shine to the poem in spades!
It goes into fabulously nerdish and pedantic detail about costume, food, lighting, the state of the language in 1820, Pushkin's travels, French theatre in Petersburg, Theocritus, carriages and hats, alliteration, the dandy; Vladimir takes passing pot shots at previous translators and Russian commentators, the Soviet government for restricting his access to research materials; he quotes freely in all the European languages from 18 century literature -- his knowledge is colossal but never stupefying.
I am coming up to the end of Canto One. I hope to be able to formulate more considered thoughts as I go to share; but at the moment, I am in the first flush of love and just revelling in the whole experience.
Here is Repin's picture of Pushkin reciting his poetry at the Lycee exam.
68urania1
Is Douglas Hofstadter's Russian translation of EOS as flat as his French translation of Sagan's That Mad Ache?
69urania1
Murrushka,
P.S. As for the ravished abducted abused rolled raped violated vanquished defeated bewitched bothered and bewildered part, are Nabokov and the Baron von K., related?
P.P.S. Are you experiencing afterglow?
P.S. As for the ravished abducted abused rolled raped violated vanquished defeated bewitched bothered and bewildered part, are Nabokov and the Baron von K., related?
P.P.S. Are you experiencing afterglow?
70semckibbin
The most important thing is VN's original contention ("and I'm not tired of telling you") that Pushkin was not creating a story out of Russia so much as he was creating a story out of Western Literature (often in French translation).
71tomcatMurr
I think this is afterglow, although it's easy to confuse with love, no?
I'm actually enjoying the Hofstadter translation, more than the Charles Johnston. It has more gusto and wit. Johnston's is a bit bland, a bit stiff-upper-lip. Here's a sample of Hofstadter
(Canto 1 stanza 46)
No one who's lived and known reflection
Could help but scorn the human host
No one who's sampled life's complexion
Could fail to fear his dead past's ghost.
For him, life's lost its fascination;
Suff'ring pangs of self-condemnation,
He tastes the fangs of memory's snake......
sem, he does keep banging away at his favourite bete noirs, doesn't he. This is one of those areas where I think N displays his wrong headedness, despite his great critical acumen, as I mentioned in the other thread.
There is of course a very general sense that all works of literature are a patchwork of previous works. However, I think EO would not have a such an enormous status in Russian culture if it was merely a book about French literature; if Russians couldn't recognise something of themselves and of their country in it. Linguistically, of course, it is recognised that EO was a revolution in the use of colloquial Russian (I'm at work now and don't have Mirsky to hand, but I think he says something about that. more later perhaps). And finally, I think N keeps banging away at this to show off his own great knowledge of French literature, or at last because it reflects his own preoccupations.
What do you think?
I'm actually enjoying the Hofstadter translation, more than the Charles Johnston. It has more gusto and wit. Johnston's is a bit bland, a bit stiff-upper-lip. Here's a sample of Hofstadter
(Canto 1 stanza 46)
No one who's lived and known reflection
Could help but scorn the human host
No one who's sampled life's complexion
Could fail to fear his dead past's ghost.
For him, life's lost its fascination;
Suff'ring pangs of self-condemnation,
He tastes the fangs of memory's snake......
sem, he does keep banging away at his favourite bete noirs, doesn't he. This is one of those areas where I think N displays his wrong headedness, despite his great critical acumen, as I mentioned in the other thread.
There is of course a very general sense that all works of literature are a patchwork of previous works. However, I think EO would not have a such an enormous status in Russian culture if it was merely a book about French literature; if Russians couldn't recognise something of themselves and of their country in it. Linguistically, of course, it is recognised that EO was a revolution in the use of colloquial Russian (I'm at work now and don't have Mirsky to hand, but I think he says something about that. more later perhaps). And finally, I think N keeps banging away at this to show off his own great knowledge of French literature, or at last because it reflects his own preoccupations.
What do you think?
72semckibbin
Listened to god damn Tina Brown on NPR today talk about Nab-O-koff, whoever he is. The occasion for her name-mangling was Dmitri's publishing of an unfinished novel. Brown was amazed that Nab-O-koff composed the novel on index cards; she couldnt believe it, like it was some magic trick.
73Porius
Somewhere in STRONG OPINIONS the great lepper gives us the proper pronunciation of his first and last names, or was he just funnin us? Tina Brown is a cony-catcher, and gives us all a cony-catcher can give us - which is not much. Of course she didn't know that VN almost always used those little index cards - or a lot of the time, anyway.
74semckibbin
Yeah, rhymes with "gawk of". Sting and Tina Brown are irritating.
75Porius
Sting in all his limo-liberal glory says NAB-a-cough. And he was an English teacher for crying out loud. Tina B. is every bit as sincere as our own Barry O.
76semckibbin
Last complaint about Mr. Sumner (I swear!). Humbert is not an old man. He is freaking 37. Two howlers in one line, Mr. Sumner.
78dchaikin
So, I had to look up how to pronounce Nabokov. Wikipedia gave me this: "vlɐdʲiˈmʲɪr nɐboˈkəf" - honestly, that doesn't help me. I also found this somewhat entertaining interview of Nabakov:
As with Gogol and even James Agйe, there is
occasionally confusion about the pronunciation of your last
name. How does one pronounce it correctly?
"It is indeed a tricky name. It is often misspelt, because
the eye tends to regard the "a" of the first syllable as a
misprint and then tries to restore the symmetrical sequence by
triplicating the "o"-- filling up the row of circles, so to
speak, as in a game of crosses and naughts. No-bow-cough. How
ugly, how wrong. Every author whose name is fairly often
mentioned in periodicals develops a bird-watcher's or
caterpillar-picker's knack when scanning an article. But in my
case I always get caught by the word "nobody" when capitalized
at the beginning of a sentence. As to pronunciation, Frenchmen
of course say Nabokoff, with the accent on the last
syllable. Englishmen say Nabokov, accent on the first,
and Italians say Nabokov, accent in the middle, as Russians
also do. Na-bo-kov. A heavy open "o" as in
"Knickerbocker". My New England ear is not offended by the long
elegant middle "o" of Nabokov as delivered in American
academies. The awful "Na-bah-kov" is a despicable gutterism.
Well, you can make your choice now. Incidentallv, the first
name is pronounced Vladeemer-- rhyming with "redeemer"-- not
Vladimir rhyming with Faddimere (a place in England, I think)."
Source: http://lib.ru/NABOKOW/Inter05.txt
As with Gogol and even James Agйe, there is
occasionally confusion about the pronunciation of your last
name. How does one pronounce it correctly?
"It is indeed a tricky name. It is often misspelt, because
the eye tends to regard the "a" of the first syllable as a
misprint and then tries to restore the symmetrical sequence by
triplicating the "o"-- filling up the row of circles, so to
speak, as in a game of crosses and naughts. No-bow-cough. How
ugly, how wrong. Every author whose name is fairly often
mentioned in periodicals develops a bird-watcher's or
caterpillar-picker's knack when scanning an article. But in my
case I always get caught by the word "nobody" when capitalized
at the beginning of a sentence. As to pronunciation, Frenchmen
of course say Nabokoff, with the accent on the last
syllable. Englishmen say Nabokov, accent on the first,
and Italians say Nabokov, accent in the middle, as Russians
also do. Na-bo-kov. A heavy open "o" as in
"Knickerbocker". My New England ear is not offended by the long
elegant middle "o" of Nabokov as delivered in American
academies. The awful "Na-bah-kov" is a despicable gutterism.
Well, you can make your choice now. Incidentallv, the first
name is pronounced Vladeemer-- rhyming with "redeemer"-- not
Vladimir rhyming with Faddimere (a place in England, I think)."
Source: http://lib.ru/NABOKOW/Inter05.txt
79Medellia
Curses, I've been pronouncing it like an Englishman.
Several years ago, in my late teens in undergrad, I realized the downside of book learning and the horror of being a stupid American. My music history teacher asked us whom Philip Glass studied with in Paris (it was Nadia Boulanger), and I confidently announced, "Nadia BOO-laing-er!" Hard "g" and all. *groan*
Several years ago, in my late teens in undergrad, I realized the downside of book learning and the horror of being a stupid American. My music history teacher asked us whom Philip Glass studied with in Paris (it was Nadia Boulanger), and I confidently announced, "Nadia BOO-laing-er!" Hard "g" and all. *groan*
80tomcatMurr
lol Meddy, I aso pronounce it like an Englishman. but then, oh wait, but I am an Englishman!
I am madly busy here this week, and not much time for posting or reading NaBOkov. I am reading Hoffstadter's translation of EO on the side. He makes some pretty damn awful pronunciation howlers as well, rhyming 'forte' with 'port', and 'trope' with 'scope', for example. Poor Vladeemir must be spinning in his grave.
I am however, having lots of fruitful thoughts on translation, which I hope to share next week, time permitting.
Are Porius and Sem going to have a duel, do you think?
I am madly busy here this week, and not much time for posting or reading NaBOkov. I am reading Hoffstadter's translation of EO on the side. He makes some pretty damn awful pronunciation howlers as well, rhyming 'forte' with 'port', and 'trope' with 'scope', for example. Poor Vladeemir must be spinning in his grave.
I am however, having lots of fruitful thoughts on translation, which I hope to share next week, time permitting.
Are Porius and Sem going to have a duel, do you think?
81avaland
>78 dchaikin: I started reading with great trepidation, but, as it turns out, I'm pronouncing it correctly!
82zenomax
A duel would be a most welcome distraction. But what would be the weapon of choice?
Iambic pentameter? Nonsense verse? Most obscure philosopher found on Youtube?
The more arcane the weapon, the more likely I would be to back P.
Iambic pentameter? Nonsense verse? Most obscure philosopher found on Youtube?
The more arcane the weapon, the more likely I would be to back P.
83Porius
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDupoFh5Op0
Thackeray and Kubrick would rather we didn't take sides here, but I'll always feel that Bullingdon is a ponce. When I first saw it years and years ago I was pissed off to beat the band. Barry is a cad, doubtless, but he deserved better after he wasted his fire, did he not?
Thackeray and Kubrick would rather we didn't take sides here, but I'll always feel that Bullingdon is a ponce. When I first saw it years and years ago I was pissed off to beat the band. Barry is a cad, doubtless, but he deserved better after he wasted his fire, did he not?
84Mr.Durick
Feline taste in rhyming has made me curious. Does 'port' not rhyme with 'forte?' Does 'trope' not rhyme with 'scope?'
Robert
Robert
85Porius
If you look at a lot of poetry you will see some pretty funny rimes. For forte, for me it depends on which crowd I'm in. As for trope, I prefer one syllable there. A turn. A Chance. It's a word that should only be used by the fastidious, I am sometimes fastidious, but not so fastidious as a pig. Fastidious as a pig was a phrase I first read in George Garrett's novel: 'Death of the Fox' about Wat Rawly. A very good one with, ah, tropes, he's learned all the ropes. Is George G. arcane or . . .
Gore Vidal on VN's index cards:
Prof. N's answers to the questions posed him by a dozen or so interviewers are often amusing, sometimes illuminating, and always - after the 3rd or 4th performance - unbearable in their repetitiveness. Never again do I want to read that he writes in longhand with a hard pencil while standing at a lectern until he tires and sits or lies down, that he writes on Bristol cards which are lined on only one side so that he will not mistake a used card for a fresh card.
Gore Vidal on VN's index cards:
Prof. N's answers to the questions posed him by a dozen or so interviewers are often amusing, sometimes illuminating, and always - after the 3rd or 4th performance - unbearable in their repetitiveness. Never again do I want to read that he writes in longhand with a hard pencil while standing at a lectern until he tires and sits or lies down, that he writes on Bristol cards which are lined on only one side so that he will not mistake a used card for a fresh card.
86tomcatMurr
fastidious as a pig is a great simile indeed. I shall use it (without attribution) all the time.
85, you're kidding right? both forte and trope have two syllables: 'it's not my forte' don't tell me there are actually people who say 'it's not my fort?' Too funny. Trope should rhyme with 'ropey'.
I mean, I'm all for para-rhyme, but rhyming a masculine rhyme (one syllable) with a mispronounced feminine rhyme (two syllables) is either cheating or ineptitude.
But wait, is this a US/UK thing?
85, you're kidding right? both forte and trope have two syllables: 'it's not my forte' don't tell me there are actually people who say 'it's not my fort?' Too funny. Trope should rhyme with 'ropey'.
I mean, I'm all for para-rhyme, but rhyming a masculine rhyme (one syllable) with a mispronounced feminine rhyme (two syllables) is either cheating or ineptitude.
But wait, is this a US/UK thing?
87Porius
unless one poet is reading another it's not a great matter. Is it? I almost never use these 2 words so I keep my nose clean.
88Medellia
You Brits really say "tropey"?! Are you pulling our legs? My Compact OED says "rhymes with rope."
I've heard both "fort" and "for-TAY." Merriam-Webster has this to say:
In forte we have a word derived from French that in its “strong point” sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯr-tē\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation \ˈfȯrt\, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would rhyme it with English for. So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English \ˈfȯ-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯt\ predominate; \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \fȯr-ˈtā\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English.
I've heard both "fort" and "for-TAY." Merriam-Webster has this to say:
In forte we have a word derived from French that in its “strong point” sense has no entirely satisfactory pronunciation. Usage writers have denigrated \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯr-tē\ because they reflect the influence of the Italian-derived 2forte. Their recommended pronunciation \ˈfȯrt\, however, does not exactly reflect French either: the French would write the word le fort and would rhyme it with English for. So you can take your choice, knowing that someone somewhere will dislike whichever variant you choose. All are standard, however. In British English \ˈfȯ-ˌtā\ and \ˈfȯt\ predominate; \ˈfȯr-ˌtā\ and \fȯr-ˈtā\ are probably the most frequent pronunciations in American English.
89absurdeist
tomcat,
I've always pronounced "tomcat"
as "tomecat,"
I want you to know;
and frankly, good Sir,
it's purely, (or "purr-ly")
apropos.
I've always pronounced "tomcat"
as "tomecat,"
I want you to know;
and frankly, good Sir,
it's purely, (or "purr-ly")
apropos.
90Mr.Durick
In French, whence forte as strength in English, 'forte,' a feminine adjective, is pronounced roughly as in English 'fort.' I reckon we can get an English noun from a French adjective. We say fortay, or somesuch, in English to render Italian 'forte' meaning loud when we talk of music; I think we still italicize such things.
Robert
Robert
92tomcatMurr
* sigh*
Chinese is so much easier........
Chinese is so much easier........
93nobooksnolife
So enjoyable is the lurking I do on your threads! (Just imagine, a few years ago, that sentence would have made NO sense at all!)...love the 'fastidious as a pig'...alas, I'm neither as fastidious nor as intelligent as a pig, though I'm starting to resemble one physically. ナボカフ(Japanese) ?
Chinese is always easier. ;)
Chinese is always easier. ;)
94tomcatMurr
nobooksnolife! A herring!
Chinese would be a lot easier if it had a proper writing system instead of those daft little pictures.
But what I meant in >92 tomcatMurr: was that at least in Chinese (Mandarin) there is only one way to pronounce a word: unlike English which has so many regional/national variations. I need hardly remind all those present of GBShaw's famous remark of Britain and America being two countries divided by a common language.
China and Taiwan have a remarkable consistency of pronunciation between them. Chinese has more tongue curled sounds, while Taiwanese has more or less dropped them, but apart from that, the sound of the language is the same on both sides of the strait.
But back to Nabakov. Here is a typical note from the commentary, which shows well the myriad delights hidden in this book.
a: 2-4 / art...heart: One of those very rare cases when the jinni (sic) of a literal translation presents one with a set of ready rhymes. A little judicious touching up may even produce the right meter: "Who then, was she, the girl whose gaze | He charmed without a trace of art, | To whom he gave his nights and days, | the meditations of his heart?" The incorruptible translator should resist such temptations.
The genie of literal translation. Delicious.
One of the other chief delights of this book is the wealth of references to other poetry, Russian (translated by N), French (left in French in the text - my French is a bit rusty but passable) and English, as well as other poems by Pushkin and excised variants of the text. N's learning is utterly ferocious. He can hunt down the obscurest reference, the most tenuous echo and put texts side by side to make them resonate together.
Here for example are 14 lines from Wordsworth's Ode to Lycoris, which, according to N, is the closest thing he can find in English with the same rhythm, rhyme scheme, tone and mood to the Onegin stanza:
In youth we love the darksome lawn
Brushed by the owlet's wing;
Then, Twilight is preferred to Dawn,
And Autumn to the Spring.
Sad fancies do we then affect,
In luxury of disrespect
To our own prodigal excess
Of too familiar happiness.
Lycoris (if such name befit
Thee, thee my life's celestial sign!)
When Nature marks the year's decline,
Be ours to welcome it;
Pleased with the harvest hope that runs
Before the path of milder suns;...
This is Pushkin's own drawing of Onegin and Pushkin leaning on the granite parapet described in EO Canto 1:48.
Chinese would be a lot easier if it had a proper writing system instead of those daft little pictures.
But what I meant in >92 tomcatMurr: was that at least in Chinese (Mandarin) there is only one way to pronounce a word: unlike English which has so many regional/national variations. I need hardly remind all those present of GBShaw's famous remark of Britain and America being two countries divided by a common language.
China and Taiwan have a remarkable consistency of pronunciation between them. Chinese has more tongue curled sounds, while Taiwanese has more or less dropped them, but apart from that, the sound of the language is the same on both sides of the strait.
But back to Nabakov. Here is a typical note from the commentary, which shows well the myriad delights hidden in this book.
a: 2-4 / art...heart: One of those very rare cases when the jinni (sic) of a literal translation presents one with a set of ready rhymes. A little judicious touching up may even produce the right meter: "Who then, was she, the girl whose gaze | He charmed without a trace of art, | To whom he gave his nights and days, | the meditations of his heart?" The incorruptible translator should resist such temptations.
The genie of literal translation. Delicious.
One of the other chief delights of this book is the wealth of references to other poetry, Russian (translated by N), French (left in French in the text - my French is a bit rusty but passable) and English, as well as other poems by Pushkin and excised variants of the text. N's learning is utterly ferocious. He can hunt down the obscurest reference, the most tenuous echo and put texts side by side to make them resonate together.
Here for example are 14 lines from Wordsworth's Ode to Lycoris, which, according to N, is the closest thing he can find in English with the same rhythm, rhyme scheme, tone and mood to the Onegin stanza:
In youth we love the darksome lawn
Brushed by the owlet's wing;
Then, Twilight is preferred to Dawn,
And Autumn to the Spring.
Sad fancies do we then affect,
In luxury of disrespect
To our own prodigal excess
Of too familiar happiness.
Lycoris (if such name befit
Thee, thee my life's celestial sign!)
When Nature marks the year's decline,
Be ours to welcome it;
Pleased with the harvest hope that runs
Before the path of milder suns;...
This is Pushkin's own drawing of Onegin and Pushkin leaning on the granite parapet described in EO Canto 1:48.
95tomcatMurr
Wow, I haven't posted anything here since November 1st! I have not been doing much reading, and my Russian exile was briefly interrupted by real life. I moved house at the end of November, into a place we had been renovating over the summer, and that took all my energies. However, I am quite settled in my new place now, and am trying to catch up with my club read thread and all the other threads.
Now let's see, what did I read?
I took some time away from Eugene Onegin and Nabakov to read some poetry. I read Derek Walcott's collection The Star Apple Kingdom, which has some incredible stuff in it.
I read Byron's Beppo as well.
Then I reread The Name of the Rose, as I wanted something compelling and atmospheric to help me relax from dealing with builders, contractors, architect, movers etc. As it turned out, this was a very fecund read and I have been writing about it off and on for the last two weeks. I hope to be able to post something on it in the next few days.
I am now reading The Nether World by Gissing. I love 19th century Brit lit, and Gissing is one of my faves. He is fabulously gloomy and pessimistic, and the closest thing 19th century British lit has to a Dostoevsky and a Zola.
And then it's back to Pushkin! I ordered two different translations of Eugene Onegin, and some other Russian poetry from Amazon, and am itching to get back to it.
This is the cover painting on my edition of The Nether World: 'The Public Bar' by John Henry Henshall. It's a very suitable image for the book.
Now let's see, what did I read?
I took some time away from Eugene Onegin and Nabakov to read some poetry. I read Derek Walcott's collection The Star Apple Kingdom, which has some incredible stuff in it.
I read Byron's Beppo as well.
Then I reread The Name of the Rose, as I wanted something compelling and atmospheric to help me relax from dealing with builders, contractors, architect, movers etc. As it turned out, this was a very fecund read and I have been writing about it off and on for the last two weeks. I hope to be able to post something on it in the next few days.
I am now reading The Nether World by Gissing. I love 19th century Brit lit, and Gissing is one of my faves. He is fabulously gloomy and pessimistic, and the closest thing 19th century British lit has to a Dostoevsky and a Zola.
And then it's back to Pushkin! I ordered two different translations of Eugene Onegin, and some other Russian poetry from Amazon, and am itching to get back to it.
This is the cover painting on my edition of The Nether World: 'The Public Bar' by John Henry Henshall. It's a very suitable image for the book.
96tonikat
I'm looking forward to your The Name of the Rose thoughts - I like it very much.
Also like the painting, doesn't seem so very different to now. well, apart from the hats, and the clothes, and the lack of sound or video system, and the gastro pub bit -- but you know what I mean.
Also like the painting, doesn't seem so very different to now. well, apart from the hats, and the clothes, and the lack of sound or video system, and the gastro pub bit -- but you know what I mean.
97tomcatMurr
And apart from the woman spoon-feeding gin to her baby...lol
99zenomax
Not sure if you have access to BBC Four (television not radio), but a three part series on Russian art starts this week. Episode one seems to be about the Russian icon from its roots in Byzantium through to the work of Rublev.
100tomcatMurr
Oh how great! (Actually, i didn't even know there was a BBC 4. lol) I will try to find it on You tube.
My review of The Name of the Rose is here:
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2009/12/name-of-rose-umberto-eco.html
My review of The Name of the Rose is here:
http://thelectern.blogspot.com/2009/12/name-of-rose-umberto-eco.html
101tonikat
I found that very enjoyable tomcat, its a favourite of mine (The Name of the Rose). excellent semiotic analysis - much better than symbology! I guess the analysis also leads to seeing one of those contradictions in personal growth v's allotted world position and view. I think of personal growth because one of my favourite passages is when William alludes to knocking away a ladder having used it to reach somewhere - following Wittgenstein I guess.
I always think that Occam's razor cuts both ways, or has potential to. Now I'm just drifting - I also got an impression that he was explaining much of the development of later centuries, and the rise of northern europe, and especially German Philosophy by associating these ideas with the court at this time - a difference of opinion with the south with vast repercussions.
Love the book, thanks for a review thats stimulated me to think about it again.
I always think that Occam's razor cuts both ways, or has potential to. Now I'm just drifting - I also got an impression that he was explaining much of the development of later centuries, and the rise of northern europe, and especially German Philosophy by associating these ideas with the court at this time - a difference of opinion with the south with vast repercussions.
Love the book, thanks for a review thats stimulated me to think about it again.
102tomcatMurr
Thank Tony! glad you enjoyed it. your thoughts are always interesting. Eco has great fun, I think, with introducing historical anachronisms. You are right about the North South divide that occurred later.
