The Forsyte Saga: An Introduction
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1Urquhart
For those who wish it, the following is a little bit of an intro to the reading of The Forsyte Saga Vol 1; henceforth designated by me as, TFS.
I. His Life:
He attended Harrow and New College, Oxford, training as a barrister and was called to the bar in 1890. However, he was not keen to begin practising law and instead travelled abroad to look after the family's shipping business interests.
In 1895 Galsworthy began an affair with Ada Nemesis Pearson, the wife of one of his cousins. After her divorce the pair eventually married on 23 September 1905 and stayed together until his death in 1933. Prior to their marriage, they stayed clandestinely in a farmhouse called Wingstone in the village of Manaton on Dartmoor, Devon. From 1908 he took out a long lease on part of the building and made it their regular second home until 1923.
He is now far better known for his novels and particularly TFS, the first of three trilogies of novels about the Forsyte family and connected lives. These books, as with many of his other works, dealt with class, and in particular upper-middle class lives. Although sympathetic to his characters he highlights their insular, snobbish and acquisitive attitudes and their suffocating moral codes. He is viewed as one of the first writers of the Edwardian era; challenging in his works some of the ideals of society depicted in the preceding literature of Victorian England. The character of Irene in TFS is drawn from Ada Pearson even though her previous marriage was not as miserable as Irene's.
John Galsworthy lived for the final seven years of his life at Bury in West Sussex. He died from a brain tumour at his London home, Grove Lodge, Hampstead.
Additional Info:
Galsworthy was a dramatist of considerable technical skill. His plays often took up specific social grievances such as the double standard of justice as applied to the upper and lower classes in The Silver Box (1906) and the confrontation of capital and labour in Strife (1909). Justice (1910), his most famous play, led to a prison reform in England. Galsworthy's reaction o the First World War found its expression in The Mob (1914), in which the voice of a statesman is drowned in the madness of the war-hungry masses; and in enmity of the two families of The Skin Game (1920).
From Nobel Lectures, Literature 1901-1967, Editor Horst Frenz, Elsevier Publishing Company, Amsterdam, 1969
II. A Genealogy
This book, like War & Peace and many other long books, has a geneology associated with it. If you would like one version of the geneology to assist you in the reading of the book, you could access it here...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte/swf/printable.html
III. The Structure
The Forsyte Saga, the first of three trilogies of novels is itself a trilogy: The Forsyte Saga, A Modern Comedy, End of the Chapter.
TFS consists of 3 Volumes:
The first part is The Forsyte Saga that consists of: The Man of Property,(Interlude) Indian Summer of a Forsyte,
In Chancery, (Interlude) Awakening,
To Let.
IV. Two Suggested Approaches As We Go Along....
A.
Certain books are for fast reads and benefit from that approach. This particular book is possibly best appreciated at a slower pace. If you are uncomfortable with a slow pace then you will possibly not want to waste your time here.
Likewise, reading this book on the subway going to work might be a little difficult.
War and Peace can be a fast and interesting read but possibly not this one.
B.
While we can do literary criticism as well as plot and character analysis lets also include favorite passages or quotations of the book that we really enjoy and think worth dwelling on.
I will add mine as we go along, but will wait for people to get going with the book before doing so.
I. His Life:
He attended Harrow and New College, Oxford, training as a barrister and was called to the bar in 1890. However, he was not keen to begin practising law and instead travelled abroad to look after the family's shipping business interests.
In 1895 Galsworthy began an affair with Ada Nemesis Pearson, the wife of one of his cousins. After her divorce the pair eventually married on 23 September 1905 and stayed together until his death in 1933. Prior to their marriage, they stayed clandestinely in a farmhouse called Wingstone in the village of Manaton on Dartmoor, Devon. From 1908 he took out a long lease on part of the building and made it their regular second home until 1923.
He is now far better known for his novels and particularly TFS, the first of three trilogies of novels about the Forsyte family and connected lives. These books, as with many of his other works, dealt with class, and in particular upper-middle class lives. Although sympathetic to his characters he highlights their insular, snobbish and acquisitive attitudes and their suffocating moral codes. He is viewed as one of the first writers of the Edwardian era; challenging in his works some of the ideals of society depicted in the preceding literature of Victorian England. The character of Irene in TFS is drawn from Ada Pearson even though her previous marriage was not as miserable as Irene's.
John Galsworthy lived for the final seven years of his life at Bury in West Sussex. He died from a brain tumour at his London home, Grove Lodge, Hampstead.
Additional Info:
Galsworthy was a dramatist of considerable technical skill. His plays often took up specific social grievances such as the double standard of justice as applied to the upper and lower classes in The Silver Box (1906) and the confrontation of capital and labour in Strife (1909). Justice (1910), his most famous play, led to a prison reform in England. Galsworthy's reaction o the First World War found its expression in The Mob (1914), in which the voice of a statesman is drowned in the madness of the war-hungry masses; and in enmity of the two families of The Skin Game (1920).
From Nobel Lectures, Literature 1901-1967, Editor Horst Frenz, Elsevier Publishing Company, Amsterdam, 1969
II. A Genealogy
This book, like War & Peace and many other long books, has a geneology associated with it. If you would like one version of the geneology to assist you in the reading of the book, you could access it here...
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/forsyte/swf/printable.html
III. The Structure
The Forsyte Saga, the first of three trilogies of novels is itself a trilogy: The Forsyte Saga, A Modern Comedy, End of the Chapter.
TFS consists of 3 Volumes:
The first part is The Forsyte Saga that consists of: The Man of Property,(Interlude) Indian Summer of a Forsyte,
In Chancery, (Interlude) Awakening,
To Let.
IV. Two Suggested Approaches As We Go Along....
A.
Certain books are for fast reads and benefit from that approach. This particular book is possibly best appreciated at a slower pace. If you are uncomfortable with a slow pace then you will possibly not want to waste your time here.
Likewise, reading this book on the subway going to work might be a little difficult.
War and Peace can be a fast and interesting read but possibly not this one.
B.
While we can do literary criticism as well as plot and character analysis lets also include favorite passages or quotations of the book that we really enjoy and think worth dwelling on.
I will add mine as we go along, but will wait for people to get going with the book before doing so.
2kjellika
>Urquhart
Thank you for this info and for creating the threads :)
My editions (Norwegian and English) of TFS have got detailed "Forsyte Family Tree", I assume I'll use them quite often (at least in the beginning) as I read along. I've also printed out the genealogy from the web-site. I'm sure it will be helpful.
Thank you for this info and for creating the threads :)
My editions (Norwegian and English) of TFS have got detailed "Forsyte Family Tree", I assume I'll use them quite often (at least in the beginning) as I read along. I've also printed out the genealogy from the web-site. I'm sure it will be helpful.
4rebeccareid
I just ordered it from Bookmooch. I'm very interested!
5Urquhart
Glad to hear the introduction is of interest.
A pleasure shared is a pleasure doubled.....
Ur.
6carmody
This kind of stuff you posted helps me. Thanks especially for the genealogy tree.
Since I am new to really long books like this if you could give me some ideas as to how to read or think about this guy it would help.
I mean is this guy a war and peace guy like Tolstoy or is it more a relationship thing like Madam Bovary or a psychological thing like Henry James?
Didn't Balzac do that long Comedie Humaine? Do I have to read the entire trilogy of this guy to get the point of whole? I mean if I have to read the whole thing I won't have time for American Idol and a life of my own.
Thanks anyway for the help....I just wish it wasn't so long but if people voted for it I will go along with it.
carmody
7geneg
Part of the genius of this group was starting with War and Peace. If one can read that one, one can read anything of quality.
We've read Middlemarch, over 850 pages, Bleak House over 800 pages, Our Mutual Friend over 900 pages, and recently some shorter to short works. The longer ones present a more intensely drawn society with many parts. I've not read Chesil Beach but my guess is there's not much social construction gone into it, if it can be read in an hour.
If that's the kind of thing you wish to read, suggest it next time and see what the response is.
I don't know about others, but the main thing I get from this group is to read books I would not read, otherwise. This has yielded at least three treasures I otherwise would not have read and am pleased that I did.
We've read Middlemarch, over 850 pages, Bleak House over 800 pages, Our Mutual Friend over 900 pages, and recently some shorter to short works. The longer ones present a more intensely drawn society with many parts. I've not read Chesil Beach but my guess is there's not much social construction gone into it, if it can be read in an hour.
If that's the kind of thing you wish to read, suggest it next time and see what the response is.
I don't know about others, but the main thing I get from this group is to read books I would not read, otherwise. This has yielded at least three treasures I otherwise would not have read and am pleased that I did.
8carmody
> 7: geneg
'Part of the genius of this group was starting with War and Peace. If one can read that one, one can read anything of quality.'
Well I only have a few books in my library and haven't read that much but are you saying above that if I can read War and Peace then I will be able to read these books my wife wants me to read like Ulysses and Finnegans Wake?
'Part of the genius of this group was starting with War and Peace. If one can read that one, one can read anything of quality.'
Well I only have a few books in my library and haven't read that much but are you saying above that if I can read War and Peace then I will be able to read these books my wife wants me to read like Ulysses and Finnegans Wake?
9geneg
I'm saying that after War and Peace you won't be afraid to take on Ulysses or Finnegan's Wake because of their bulk. You may not wish to read them for other reasons, but length will be a less daunting reason than it might have been.
10rfb
SPOILERs: I've read the first three chapters of The Man of Property - don't read on if you don't yet want to know what happened.
I also have a family tree printed in my edition of the novel; however, the given years are totally screwed. June's year of birth, for example, is given as 1869 - which would mean that she would have been 16 when becoming engaged in 1886, as the book states. Therefore I have started a timeline to help me see through everything a little. You're invited to add whatever you think necessary. Beware that the Galsworthy himself wasn't a 100% accurate - Old Jolyon describes his son having run away 14 years ago, stating elsewhere that Young Jolyon's marriage only lasted four years, which doesn't sum up to June's age of 19.
I also have a family tree printed in my edition of the novel; however, the given years are totally screwed. June's year of birth, for example, is given as 1869 - which would mean that she would have been 16 when becoming engaged in 1886, as the book states. Therefore I have started a timeline to help me see through everything a little. You're invited to add whatever you think necessary. Beware that the Galsworthy himself wasn't a 100% accurate - Old Jolyon describes his son having run away 14 years ago, stating elsewhere that Young Jolyon's marriage only lasted four years, which doesn't sum up to June's age of 19.
11geneg
Maybe one is to take these things at face value, just as they are presented. Remember, these are the Victorians we're talking about, the inventors of the closet, the definition of the word hypocrite.
12rfb
Certainly, but Old Jolyon (or perhaps rather any other family member) would have mentioned that too, I believe. It was just an example, one of several I've noticed.
13kjellika
I've read PART ONE of The Man of Property (nine chapters, page 109 in my Penguin Classics).
I do like the plot, but I'm a little irresolute of what to mean about the style etc.
To avoid spoilers I think I'll comment the whole book 'The Man of Property' when I've finished it, using the relevant thread for this part of TFS.
I'm hoping to learn more about the characters as I read further on, but I like Galsworty's characterizing at the beginning of chapter eight (PLANS OF THE HOUSE):
"ALL Forsytes, as is generally admitted, have shells, like that extremely useful little animal which is made into Turkish delight; in other words, they are never seen, or if seen would not be recognized, without habitats, composed of circumstance, property, acquaintances, and wives, which seem to move along with them in their passage through a world composed of thousands of other Forsytes with their habitats. Without a habitat a Forsyte is inconceivable - he would be like a novel without a plot, which is well-known to be an anomaly."
My comment:
"A novel without a plot" (or approx. without a plot) ain't an anomaly nowadays (say since modernism). Or: What's the definition of 'plot'? Is "stream-of consciousness" a plot?
I do like the plot, but I'm a little irresolute of what to mean about the style etc.
To avoid spoilers I think I'll comment the whole book 'The Man of Property' when I've finished it, using the relevant thread for this part of TFS.
I'm hoping to learn more about the characters as I read further on, but I like Galsworty's characterizing at the beginning of chapter eight (PLANS OF THE HOUSE):
"ALL Forsytes, as is generally admitted, have shells, like that extremely useful little animal which is made into Turkish delight; in other words, they are never seen, or if seen would not be recognized, without habitats, composed of circumstance, property, acquaintances, and wives, which seem to move along with them in their passage through a world composed of thousands of other Forsytes with their habitats. Without a habitat a Forsyte is inconceivable - he would be like a novel without a plot, which is well-known to be an anomaly."
My comment:
"A novel without a plot" (or approx. without a plot) ain't an anomaly nowadays (say since modernism). Or: What's the definition of 'plot'? Is "stream-of consciousness" a plot?
14Cecilturtle
I've finished Part I as well and I'm loving it. It's been a while since I've sat down with a massive tome and really sunk my teeth into the characters.
I've categorized them by levels of "self-knowledge" - ie Swithin and James, self-absorbed, "nobody tells me anything"; old Jolyon and Soames who have a clue that something bigger is out there (besides money), but not quite sure what; young Jolyon, Irene and maybe even Bosinney who clearly want more out of life than just property.
Looking forward to juicy developments!
I've categorized them by levels of "self-knowledge" - ie Swithin and James, self-absorbed, "nobody tells me anything"; old Jolyon and Soames who have a clue that something bigger is out there (besides money), but not quite sure what; young Jolyon, Irene and maybe even Bosinney who clearly want more out of life than just property.
Looking forward to juicy developments!
16orangeena
I completed The Forsyte Saga in February, after its reproaching stares of two years from the shelf shamed me into picking it.
I'll jump right out on a limb and say almost everyone will like it.
Certainly there are a host of characters and realtionships, but they are not as complicated to difficult or decipher and remember as other great works - Brothers K or Bleak House, for instance. I thought Galsworthy quite adept at mixing narrative and character development and had a fine balance of description with conclusion and leading the reader with inference - certainly not a stream of consciousness writing style.
The Forsytes are defined by their property - real estate, people, possessions and the acquisition, appearance and maintenace of it - typical of the turn-of-the-century upper middle class English. As Galsworthy himself says it is a story of the "impingement of beauty and the claims of freedom" on a possessive world.
A great story - I look forward to seeing the comment of the group's readers.
I'll jump right out on a limb and say almost everyone will like it.
Certainly there are a host of characters and realtionships, but they are not as complicated to difficult or decipher and remember as other great works - Brothers K or Bleak House, for instance. I thought Galsworthy quite adept at mixing narrative and character development and had a fine balance of description with conclusion and leading the reader with inference - certainly not a stream of consciousness writing style.
The Forsytes are defined by their property - real estate, people, possessions and the acquisition, appearance and maintenace of it - typical of the turn-of-the-century upper middle class English. As Galsworthy himself says it is a story of the "impingement of beauty and the claims of freedom" on a possessive world.
A great story - I look forward to seeing the comment of the group's readers.
17Urquhart
People may wish to think of Galsworthy as one of the more quiet writers.
Often today many authors seek to shout or to shock. This is not a book for those seeking those qualities.
Instead, he speaks quietly and clearly; with great feeling and insight.
So often I get tired of the speed and shouting of much of today. When I am shouted at it is hard to listen. When it is so very fast, it passes me by too quickly.
Galsworthy is really about the speed and decibel level I can luxuriate in, gratefully.
Often today many authors seek to shout or to shock. This is not a book for those seeking those qualities.
Instead, he speaks quietly and clearly; with great feeling and insight.
So often I get tired of the speed and shouting of much of today. When I am shouted at it is hard to listen. When it is so very fast, it passes me by too quickly.
Galsworthy is really about the speed and decibel level I can luxuriate in, gratefully.
18kjellika
>17 Urquhart: Urquhart,
I really agree. Galsworthy's style and description of characters etc. are great.
I wonder if the rest of his writing has got the same quality as The Forsyte Saga....
I really agree. Galsworthy's style and description of characters etc. are great.
I wonder if the rest of his writing has got the same quality as The Forsyte Saga....
19Urquhart
Message 18: kjellika
Well, I have read his entire trilogy of trilogies and I believe it holds true for that body of work. However, I have not really found that much of his work beyond that.
I have looked but all I find of his are his plays which are fine but not for me comparable with this major trilogy.
I have read this entire trilogy maybe 3 times. Every 20 years or so, and each time it is different.
So often today, authors play games of shifting the time frame or who is talking or of the setting; they seem to feel the reader will be bored if they just write the way Galsworthy does.
But with Galsworthy I can settle down and really focus on what and how it is all being said and then savor it all.
And it is the how or the rhythm of his writing that I haven't spoken of before that really pulls me in. It all is of a legato and sotto voce speed and tone level that makes it hard for me to resist.
On the other hand, 99% of contemporary readers would be horridly bored by his style and behavior. He lacks violence and sex and lots more that is popular today. I totally respect their preference for what they read.
But I know I am not like the 'others' and so I read what I enjoy.
Also, since I like him so much I am sure my enthusiasm would get in the way of other people's enjoyment of this particular book of his so I have conciously limited my comments to any discussion.
20carmody
Is it my imagination or are there very few people reading TFS?
Maybe in a month or two people will come in larger numbers.
Seems like a party with a punch bowl and not many people.
21englishrose60
I have read the Introduction and the first chapter, so haven't much to say yet. It looks very promising. Love 'the sniff'.
23carmody
Dollars to donuts many have started it; gotten bored; dropped it; and don't want to hurt our feelings by telling us what they thought.
I betcha.
:)
ps: it ain't for everyone, but I know I liked it or I wouldn't have finished it.
24shinyone
Well, I am enjoying it, but I promise not to feel bad if other people aren't. I hope that people will weigh in whether they liked it or not.
25carmody
Let's face it, chocolate is not for everyone; nor is Galsworthy.
It would be great if people posted their reasons for not reading the book after having voted for it.
Was it: too long, too boring, not enough action, or were people busy elsewhere?
Maybe this would help the group in future selections.
26kjellika
Messages 20-25
I voted for TFS and I am reading it, but rather slowly as I'm reading other books simultaneously (as usual. Bad(?) habit). Yesterday and today I read the first chapters of In Chancery, and I enjoy the story and the style, and I'm looking forward to learning more about the characters (also hoping to get introduced to new members of the family) and their behaviour, feelings and thoughts. Galsworthy is a master in characterizing his persons.
Are some of you ready to start reading 'the saga' now (finished Pale Fire)?
I voted for TFS and I am reading it, but rather slowly as I'm reading other books simultaneously (as usual. Bad(?) habit). Yesterday and today I read the first chapters of In Chancery, and I enjoy the story and the style, and I'm looking forward to learning more about the characters (also hoping to get introduced to new members of the family) and their behaviour, feelings and thoughts. Galsworthy is a master in characterizing his persons.
Are some of you ready to start reading 'the saga' now (finished Pale Fire)?
27englishrose60
I have other books to read but I am reading A Man of Property. Only a few chapters in but I am reading it slowly and enjoying it very much.
29englishrose60
Rare for me too. I am usually a quick reader but some books just have to be read slowly to savour them properly.
30Urquhart
Message 29: englishrose60
You mean you actually shift your reading speed depending on the material...????
Unbelieveable!
I have quietly and patiently tried to introduce this radical concept to my wife but it does not seem to translate.
I thank you; .....Galsworthy thanks you,....
31englishrose60
#30. Of course. I mean reading Plato takes more time than say, chick lit!
Edited to say thanks for the thanks!
Edited to say thanks for the thanks!
32billiejean
Just popped in to say that I am at last starting TFS. Sorry that I am behind. I have joined a number of reading groups and am juggling the books. I just now finished Pale Fire, so I am ready to go. Sounds like it will be a good one! :)
--BJ
--BJ
33rebeccareid
I am even farther behind the rest of you as I intend to start reading TFS this week. I was reading Jane Eyre and I thought it wouldn't take very long -- but I found myself luxuriating in the language. Now I look forward to doing the same with TFS!
Sorry I'm so late to the party. Is anyone else still reading? I may find I"m all alone. Oh well, it's how I normally read my books.
Sorry I'm so late to the party. Is anyone else still reading? I may find I"m all alone. Oh well, it's how I normally read my books.
34billiejean
I will be reading with you Rebecca! Plus my baby is graduating from high school, which is slowing down my reading.
--BJ
--BJ
