Half Blood Prince FINAL Discussion - Chapters 26-30

Today we begin our final HBP discussion. The chapters are:

26: The Cave
27: The Lightening-Struck Tower
28: Flight of the Prince
29: The Phoenix Lament
30: The White Tomb

If there's anyone around, go ahead an get started, I'm going to try to catch up on threads and I'll be back with my first notes soon.

I'll start with my notes, Bib

Chapter 26: The Cave

1. Even with magic, it sounds like it would have been pretty hard to find this place on an orphanage picnic.

2. “It has known magic.” With all the feeling and knowing that Dumbledore did, how could Harry possibly think he could find the other horcruxes and disarm any magic?

3. How could Voldemort take such care to hide and protect this Horcrux and then neglect so many others? He just had someone put the cup in their vault and he left the other one in the Room of Requirement that anyone could get into.

4. “Keeping his hand clenched in midair, Dumbledore raised his wand with the other and tapped his fist with the point.” I am not sure which hand is which, but it didn’t sound like his wounded hand would be able to do either of these things.

5. The bodies in the water always remind me of the swamp in LoTR.

6. Dumbledore says the green stuff can’t be scooped out, but he scoops it to drink it.

7. Dumbledore says Voldemort didn’t want to kill the person who got to the island, but keep him alive to find out how they got there. How does he know they got there? It will be discussed (or was) that he isn’t aware when a horcrux is destroyed.

8. “I’m not worried, Harry, I’m with you.” Great line!

2.1: I assume Tom did a lot of solo wandering in areas that he knew he wouldn't be allowed. It's just what he would do.

2.2: I have a note about this, I don't remember what I said. My next post will have it though!

2.3: I thought that was pretty convenient of him to have not protected the rest of them. It was something I was planning to get into more in the DH reread. I'll hold off my comments until then. (Though I've read DH twice, I finished the second time through on 7/24 so I don't necessarily trust my memory on that stuff.)

2.4: The injured hand was his wand hand I thought and he was still able to use his wand. I kind of think of the injury as being somewhat arthritic. He couldn't close his hand tightly, but he could bring his fingers together enough to hold a wand.

2.5: Wait till you see my notes.

2.6: I noticed that too, but he does say something about "by hand" somewhere in that sentence, so I just assumed that's what he meant.

2.7: Good question! He obviously had no idea that R.A.B. and Kreacher had been there already. I wonder if he checked every so often (maybe like every 50 years or so.)

2.8: Again, I'll wait for my notes.

And speaking of my notes....

1. I always think "Of course DD uses a breast stroke." I can picture him swimming that way so perfectly, and I can't imagine him using any other stroke!

2. Do you suppose DD can sense the magic or did he do some version of specialis revelio either non-verbally or before Harry got there?

3. It will be interesting to see the inferi, I currently imagine them looking much like the Dead Marshes in LOTR.

4. DD says nothing to be feared from a body--true. Until of course that body starts to move around on it's own and tries to kill you!

5. How did you feel when DD was drinking the potion now knowing what it was he was reliving?

6. For me this is the scariest chapter in all 7 books.

7. "I am not worried Harry, I am with you." Is there anyone who doesn't get a little teary at that?

Edited because I got overexcited and hit submit way too early!

4.1 I think the breast stroke would work best in robes, or maybe a butterfly :)

4.2 Good question. Whatever he did, Harry didn't know what it was. I guess it is lucky the other horcruxes are not as well protected.

4.3 :) Great minds think alike!

4.4 Exactly!

4.5 I hadn't really thought about that he might be reliving anything. Do you think it was the incident with his sister?

4.6 It certainly was a jam packed, straightforward, intense chapter. I think the pacing helped make it scary for me. Some other scary chapters are either to faced paced or I read them to fast to realize what is happening.

4.7 *Grabs kleenex*

5.4.5 I think I always assumed DD was seeing something from his past, even before DH so then I naturally assumed it was the Arianna incident and he was speaking to Grindy. Did anyone else do this, or is it just me?

6: I reread it, and it makes sense, especially the "its all my fault" part. I had assumed when he said "Don't hurt them...hurt me instead" it was referring to someone attacking Hogwarts and the students, but that is probably because I am a teacher. Would the "them" be his brother and sister, then?

bib picked up on all my questions about this chapter. I agree that it's the creepiest, maybe not the scariest. I think Voldy in the graveyard in GoF is scarier because Voldy is there and he makes me lose control of my bowels.

Inferi=dead marshes. Indeed.

As for not protecting other horcruxes, Gringotts is supposed to be unbreak-into-able and the RoR is a pretty good place to hide something, actually. Remember how DD thought that Voldy would want to hide something in Hogwarts because of his psychology? In that case tho, wouldn't the Chamber of Secrets be a better hiding place? Obviously, lot of other people were hiding stuff in the RoR.

#6, #7 -- I tend to assume that it's not just one thing he's reliving, it's all of the bad things: a combination of his worst memories and his worst fears. I do think that the "It's all my fault" was in reference to Arianna, but, like Compski, I thought that "Don't hurt them" would be in reference to Hogwarts students -- perhaps a fear that Voldemort would attack the student body to get to Dumbledore. Either way, it's a heart-wrenching scene to read.

I agree with just about everything (hi everyone i finished this HBP this weekend too!)

I have to say about the ROR Horcrux i think maybe the point is that everyone hides something in there and judging by how filled it is no one really goes back to look for there stuff...it's usually a "oh crap i need to hide this oh hey look a door sweet!" then the hide the item and leave so while there may not be any extra magic gaurding it was in Voldy's mind safe because number 1 he didn't think people would know about his horcux and i think if they did he thought that they wouldn't be as smart as him to figure out his own mind and thinking...remeber he thinks is the the best of the best of the best.

i guess that's more for the DH talk though so i'm sure we'll com back to it. anyway i love this chapter and yes Iferi=dead marshes everytime. I think whats great about the chapter is that it really shows how great of a wizard DD is and how far Harry really has to go to be up to his level but that DD still sees Harry as an equal who will one day be as great if not better than DD himself.

#8 -- Didn't DD say somewhere that Voldy thought he was the only person ever to have found the RoR? (That may have been in DH, not HBP.) That argument seemed a little silly to me -- where did he think all of the other stuff came from? -- but on the other hand, the RoR was a less well-known hiding place than the CoS. I get the impression that the vast majority of Hogwarts students had no idea the RoR existed, whereas Voldy had already brought attention to the existence of the CoS during his time as a student. The house-elves know about the RoR, but they share information better than the students, and are there longer. Even DD didn't seem to know what he had stumbled across when he found the room of chamber pots. The RoR isn't on the Marauder's Map (though, granted, I'll bet the CoS isn't either), which indicates to me that the Marauders never found it.

The other reason for Voldy hiding a horcrux in the RoR is that he just didn't have time to sneak down to the CoS -- he needed somewhere safe and fast, and the RoR was on the way. He may have intended to sneak back in to Hogwarts later and re-hide it, but never got the chance.

Chapter 27: The Lightning-Struck Tower

1. Dumbledore getting Draco to talk for that long always reminds me of The Incredibles. “You caught me monologuing!” Although technically it wasn't a monologue.

2. Draco grows in my esteem when we see how upset he is that Fenrir Greyback comes to the school.

3. “ ‘Severus’ The sound frightened Harry beyond anything he had experienced all evening.” Goosebumps!
I do have to say that JKR likes to use the "beyond anything he had experienced" a lot, especially with pain. In GoF it was the worst pain he had ever experienced, but then in OotP it was also the worst ever.

#7: That's what I had figured. I guess that's one of the beautiful things about the chapter though, we don't know what's happening in DD's head and can each decide for themselves. Personally I choose to believe that it's all from DD's past. I can't really wrap my head around a potion that could both show the painful moments of one's past and hypothetical moment's from the future.

Again, I'm going to refrain from further comment on the Horcruxes until DH.

Chapter 27:

1. Again, I'm annoyed that DD knew about Katie and Ron and yet did nothing to stop Malfoy. I know, he rationalizes this as not wanting Voldy to know he suspected Malfoy or knew what was going on and get Malfoy and his family killed. So the Malfoy's are more important than Katie or Ron? If one have them had died would he have done anything?

2. "It is my mercy, and not yours, that matters now." This statement intrigues me.

3. Post DH knowledge--the "look of revulsion and hatred" was much used by the "Snape is bad" camp (at least the ones I knew). I suppose the look was for DD putting him in the position of tearing his own sould to save Draco's?

14.3 I don't think Snape had to tear his soul i figured there was more to separating a soul than just killing like the want or something but anyway. I think the look of revulsion was possibly just a misinterpretation on Harry's part. Harry believed at this moment that snape was evil so any look he had harry will see as evil. It may have been that the look was more of sadness at his position and the knowledge that he was going to be hunted now and had no more allies on the side of the fight he really wanted to be on and that may have made him sick and came out on his face which Harry say as hatred.

Did that make sense?

#15 -- Makes sense to me, Mandy! Like, you, I thought that Snape's look could have been misinterpreted by Harry, and that he did have some resentment of DD for putting him into that situation.

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure there's a discussion in DH that killing tears the soul regardless, or harms it in some way anyway. I'm open to the theory that it could have been a misinterpreted look but I was feeling it was hatred and revulsion for the task he was being required to complete and the position he was put in, not at DD himself.

I can't wait to see Rickman's (and the director's/screenwriter's) take on Snape from this chapter and the next. It will also be interesting to see how the Dumbledore drinking the "stuff" will go. I think we can assume it won't be cut.

14.1 Good point. Dumbledore knew about the attempts. Someone could have died. Maybe he should have done more.

14.2 This statement kind of reminds me of when Snape must have first confessed his wrong-doing to Dumbledore. It is Dumbledore's mercy that helped him and would have helped Draco and his family.

#17 -- Here's the pertinent segment from DH:

"If you don't mind dying," said Snape roughly, "why not let Draco do it?"
"That boy's soul is not yet so damaged,"said Dumbledore. "I would not have it ripped apart on my account."
"And my soul, Dumbledore? Mine?"
"You alone know whether it will harm your soul to help an old man avoid pain and humiliation," said Dumbledore.

I've never been really comfortable with DD's statement here . . . but that's a discussion for another day!

(Edited to tinker with HTML)

Danke foggster!

#19 I think what DD is saying is that if Draco does it, it will damage his soul because he will have to intend to kill his headmaster. If Snape does it upon the request of DD the damage, if any, will be minimal.

Maybe DD is also saying here that even he cannot be fully sure of Snape's true loyalties. Only Snape knows for sure whether he's killing DD because he wants to (is on Voldy's side) or because he has promised DD to do so (and he's really on DD's side).

ETA: Snape's intention doesn't really matter to DD because his agenda is: save the child from himself/Voldy and mercy kill me. It sure puts Snape in a bad spot.

It just occurs to me how convenient it is that Draco happens to be given this task just when DD is dying anyway. What would DD have done if that was not the case?

Or Snape. Did he know DD was dying before he took the oath?

#23: Pretty sure he did. Again need to check DH for a timeline, but I believe that promise was made at the same time he "put a stopper in death" for DD which I think was before he made the vow. I don't think he would have made the vow otherwise, he would have found a way out of it.

#22: Good question! Does "the greater good" extend to his own death when that death isn't already immenent (sp?)? I tend to think not. While I love DD and think he was a great man, I don't know that he was ever that altruistic!

#21: I was thinking along the same lines after reading foggi's post. I still lean toward the "hatred and revulsion" look was for the task at hand. Harry's seen Snape's look of hatred enough that he should know what it looks like!

Chapter 28:

1. Reasons I believed Snape was good:

a. He wouldn't let Harry use an Unforgiveable Curse (okay, it was aimed at him, so he probably wouldn't have anyway but still!)
b. He wouldn't let others use an Unforgiveable Curse on Harry
c. He continued trying to teach Harry to the end. ("Blocked again and again...")

2. Harry telling Hagrid about DD and Hagrid's reaction are some beautiful pieces of storytelling. Heartbreaking!

24:21 sure he knows what it looks like, but theres alot to say for mistakes and misunderstandings "in the moment" Harry wanted to see the hatred because he wanted snape to be bad. He made Snape the bad guy in every book, but was proven wrong more than once. Harry likes to be right and he's not when it comes to Snape because he has personal issues clouding his judgement.

Again i'm sorry if that doesn't make any sense.

Chapter 28: Flight of the Prince

1. Didn’t Harry knock out Amycus on the stairs? Then he is down firing spells at Ginny.

2. There seems to be a lot of bodies around. A lot of blood, too. I wonder if someone used Sectumsempra.

3. JKR sure likes to tease us that Hagrid may have died. She does it here and I remember at least twice in the next book. Talk about needing kleenex!

4. I was so proud of myself when I figured out who RAB was. Kind of helped my ego after not seeing out who the HBP was.

#26: I keep trying to frame a response, but it keeps coming off as bitchy because I'm in a bad mood. Bottom line: I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe, such is the nature of fiction and life. Let's stop trying to change each other's minds!

25:1 Good points about why Snape is good. I mostly just thought JRK wouldn't spend 5 books convincing us that he is good and then just have him turn out bad. There had to be more to the story.

4. i got who the HBP was never got how RAB could be though so I think you're one up on me.

3. she most certainly does tease us with Hagrids death and she got me everytime.

27.1: Nope, he knocks out "the Brutal-faced Death Eater". They say his name in the next chapter, but I don't remember what it is.

27.2: I always thought most of the blood came from Bill. I think the bodies are all explained in chapter 29...

27.3: I've talked about it in several places but I was 100% sure that Hagrid would die in DH because of alchemy. Glad he didn't!

27.4: KIK! I was pretty pleased with myself too!

28 sorry bib wasn't trying to change your mind, i think you know me better than to suspect me of that. I just like to make sure i get my point across and I wasn't sure that I had so I just added one more little thing. I'm sorry if I offended you I thought we were having a fun debate. LOVE YOU!! sorry you're having a bad day. If it makes you feel better i can't lift my arms because i'm sunburned.

Why would that make me feel better silly girl! You didn't offend me at all but because of my mood I was having difficulty framing a response that wasn't mean, and you being my sister made it particularly hard because I can be mean to you and you'll love me anyway, but I didn't want to do that which is why I'm going to shut up now.

Appropos of nothing: I HATE MY JOB, I HATE IT, I HATE IT, I HATE IT. I feel like crying everytime the phone rings. I can't do this much longer.

hey stop ruining my wall o' mandy!! am i the only one that didn't realize who RAB was before i was told?

Yes. (If you don't want your wall ruined, don't ask questions!)

grrr I spit at your logic!!!!!

also...I am? oh wow I think I need to crawl into a corner for a bit.;)

OK, let's answer the question I had earlier re: Bill. Why does Greyback attack him, with all those juicy kids around?

Also, I agree with Mandy that we're seeing Snape's expression while killing DD through Harry's eyes. He only sees the worst in Snape. I can't WAIT to see what Rickman does with that look.

Ack! So many DH spoilers. I was going to wait until the group read to get it from the library, but maybe I should read it sooner.

ETA: Actually, I realize that I'm reading at my own risk, and I'm pretty immune to spoilage. Just don't let it slip who RAB is!

#36: KIK! ;)

#37: Hmmm...I had never actually thought of that before! Perhaps it was the Felix that kept Greyback away from Ginny and Ron (did they share it with Neville?) All the other kids were safe in their common rooms or, in the case of Hermione and Luna, spying on Snape many floors away. Also, I'm trying to remember, is Greyback an actual wizard? Can he do magic or is physical attack his only method of joining the fray?

#38: Duly noted! We should be able to keep quiet this week.

Chapter 29: The Phoenix Lament

1. When the phoenix started singing is the first time I cryed this reread.

2. Fleur is just wonderful. This was one of my favorite parts of all the books. I think I liked it even better than when she kissed Ron in Book 4.

3. Harry knew Dumbledore was dead when the spell was broken. I didn’t believe it until his portrait was hanging in the headmaster’s office. *sob*

39> the lexicon says that fenrir is a werewolf and low level deatheater, there was no other mention of his family or parentage which makes me thgink he might have been a muggle!

40> i had never cared much for Fleur until then! She went way up in my admiration then and I loved her saying "..And I shall be doing zat!" and taking the potion from Molly

#39/41 -- I thought I remembered him holding a wand somewhere in Book 7. Even if he was a wizard prior to being bitten, I don't think he would have gotten much (any?) magical training. Lupin was apparently a special case, permitted to attend Hogwarts by Dumbledore, with special allowances made for his condition. Fenrir, who was older than Lupin (one assumes, since he's the one who bit Lupin, and Lupin doesn't make it sound like the actions of a child), probably wouldn't have been allowed to attend at all -- and if his family kicked him out, he wouldn't have gotten any training from them, either.

I had a thought on the Snape facial expression thing!

In Book 4, when the impostor Moody is teaching the class about Avada Kedavra, he tells them:

"Avada Kedavra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it -- you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nosebleed."

Later, Bellatrix tells Harry that you have to "mean it" when you try to work an Unforgivable Curse. Perhaps that's part of the issue with Snape's expression -- he had to, for that second, really want to kill Dumbledore. He had to pull on all of the anger he felt about being in that situation.

hmm good point foggi...

Cat i didn't believe until his portrait was on the wall either.

#41: Thanks for checking on that!

#42: I think it was Harry's wand after he captured him. I don't think he had his own wand. We'll see!

#43: I like that theory very much! In fact, I think it makes more sense than anything I've come up with!

Chapter 29:

1. The Phoenix Lament is one of my favorite parts of the books and I'm scared of what will happen in the movie. Will they skip it? Will they do the description of the song justice?

2. "He didn't think my mother was worth a damn either..." says Harry about Snape. Oh how wrong we can be!

3. Must be devastating for Ron and Hermione to hear how wrong they were (kinda!)

4. In the midst of all the sorrow we get the beautiful moments for Fleur and Tonks. I think that makes them all the more special.

5. I had always hoped Fawkes would make a reappearance in DH. I'm sad that he just disappears.

I'm going to post my Chapter 30 notes because there are T-Storms coming and I don't want to have to bring my notes to work again tomorrow!

1. Anyone else wonder why Bill wasn't taken to St. Mungo's?

2. Mermaids, centaurs,ghosts, giants, despite what we later learn, we must remember tha in the end DD was a force of unification within the magical world.

3. I like the humor Harry finds in the service, its what such things should be, a celebration of life! (It reminds me of the Mary Tyler Moore show.)

4. I think of Harry breaking up with Ginny as his Spiderman moment...

5. Amazing that Harry thought Ron and Hermione would let him go alone!

6. ONLY book not to end at King's Cross Station! Significant?

7. Anyone else have to fight the urge to grab DH immediately?!

#43 I totally agree, foggi. I doubt that Snape had to dig very far to find resentment against DD at that point. He accused DD of fattening Harry for the slaughter....how much different is what he asks Snape to do? Poor Snapey-poo, he was dealt a bad hand all the way around.

46: I agree with everything you put, Bib, especially about Fawkes.

47:1 Good point. Katie Bell was taken there pretty quick.

47:7 Yes! I am trying to wait until Thursday at least and then do one chapter a day.

47 & 49

I was going to make the brilliant argument that Madame Pomfrey is as skilled a healer as ten of St. Mungo's healers, but then you had to mention that Katie was sent right away.

Interestingly enough, I think Katie is the first student that is sent to St. Mungo's. So Madame Pomfrey doe have mad healing skills (much better than the clinic at my school. One time a girl went in with the flu and the nurses told her she had Hepatitis... but I digress).

Maybe they didn't want to move Bill after such a terrible attack in the same way that you're not supposed to move a car-crash victim. I think that Rowling gets away with writing it as she did, though, because I've never questioned the fact that Bill isn't at St. Mungo's.

I had never really noticed it before either and Bill does go to the funeral so I suppose that could be an excuse for him staying at Hogwarts. The thing that struck me was that Bill is neither a student or a teacher, so it's not really Madame Pomfrey's "job" to care for him. (Of course she would anyway, because caring for the sick and injured is what she's all about!)

Obviously (spoken with caricatured emphasis), Madame Pomfrey knows how to handle the cuts, bruises, missing bones, petrification, that mostly occur at Hogwarts, but something like a curse from a powerful and evil artifact is something that needs a specialist.

She also says that she's tried every "trick" she knows for Bill but isn't able to heal his wounds. Since no one has ever been attacked by an unchanged werewolf before, one would think that it would be important for a specialist to check him out too!

Maybe Bill stayed at Hogwarts because he was a member of the Order nad was fighting on DD's orders. Becuase Madame Pomfrey was close to DD and Hogwarts, she felt compelled to heal a member of the Order- especially considering the circumstances (i.e. DD's death).

and maybe there aren't any experts that could help as this has never happened before.

I think it was convenient for the story, so we could see what went on with Fleur and so he could attend the funneral.

Oh well, of course it was convenient to the story! It's just fun to pick and speculate. As for it's-never-happened-before-so-there-are-no-specialists, let's say you were diagnosed with a new form of cancer - cancer of the fingernail for instance - it's never been seen before so there are no fingernail cancer specialists. Who do you want to care for you, the school nurse or an oncologist?

St. Mungo's has people who specialize in bites, Mr. Weasley was in the ward last year with a man who was bitten by a werewolf. Personally, I'd rather have one of them work on me. (Though to be fair, I might want to wait until after DD's funeral.)

maybe Bill was too injured to be moved? maybe because they weren't sure yet what and where the death eaters had penetrated and didn't want to take a chance on him being killed or captured? There just hadn't been time to move him yet?

i would trust my health to Madame Pomfrey.

Dumbledore's dead!

How many of you thought he would "pull a Gandalf?"

I wanted him to, but I never would have forgiven JKR if he had -- does that make sense?

Sure it does. If JKR had made him be alive, then it would have been a little cheapened. It would have been an easy plot device.

I'm sorry i havent participated til now.. been reading it but been a little busy...

I wish Dumbledore hadnt died since he was one of my favorite charactars but i also understand why he did.

I did expect him to "pull a gandalf" as LG put it but i might have been more upset if he had since it would have been "cheapened" as cat said...

I wish he didnt have to break it off with Ginny because it was obvious (at least to me) that they were meant for eachother... and I think it was silly that Harry actually thought that ron and Hermione would actually let him go alone...

I had hoped he would come back in a way, but I was happy with what did happen. As long as someone came back from the "dead" I was happy....

I dont know how i would feel if they all started coming back from the dead... a little creeped out actually.

Harry: Yay! Dumbledore is back alive!

*Dumbledore shambles over to Harry, Ron, and Hermione*

Hermione: Harry! I think there's something wrong with Dumbledore!

Harry: Why do you say that, Hermione?

Hermione: Because he's eating your head!

Zombie Dumbledore: Mmmmmmmmm... Brains! Alas!

LOL, Espy! That sounds like a potential Potter Puppet Pals sketch.

65- LOL Espy! It's Zombiedore! ;)