Lyra's Press Announces "Coraline"

Rich just put up the post here: https://www.lyrasbooks.com/lyras-press-title-announcement/?fbclid=IwAR3mOBt4SGA7...

Quite surprised to hear it's another Gaiman title, but certainly not disappointed! It'll be interesting to see this one interpreted by a new artist as well, particularly boasting 35+ illustrations.

Now if only someone will go ahead and print the Illustrated Neverwhere in full letterpress...

This will be a lavish and expensive production for a children's book. I wonder what the other options being considered were? I'm slightly disappointed as Lyra's is successful enough that it doesn't need another Gaiman. I'd be surprised if the lettered rights exercise is not 100%, given that the rights are coming directly from Stardust. The numbered should sell very quickly, but the standard should be easily obtainable.

>2 punkzip: It's probably in the middle of my list of Gaiman books, but I certainly see how they could've decided on it by process of elimination, since American Gods and even Anansi Boys are likely too long, and any newly illustrated edition of Neverwhere, Ocean At The End of The Lane, or The Graveyard Book would underwhelm compared to what's been done in the past.

If I'd really been hoping for another title I'd probably be disappointed, but I really had no guesses so will be happy to add this to my illustrated Gaiman collection.

>1 NathanOv: I would have loved Neverwhere too! Happy with Coraline still and the description sounds very promising and lovely. Can't wait to see the prototypes.

This looks great, something I'm very much looking forward to. And yes, I would definitely second Neverwhere. I can't say that I like the only illustrated edition a lot, and think something wonderful could be done with it.

Coraline doesn't excite me as a text, but I love, love Rovina Cai. I guess the price will help determine whether I pick this up for the art alone.

Honestly I'm a bit disappointed. I'm worried that Lyra's turns into a Gaiman imprint. I understand that they have a good relationship with Neil, that he's probably a fairly safe choice because of the fanbase, his books lend well to illustration etc, but can't help feeling some disappointment that it's not some other title/author. Art and the production itself sound wonderful, but at the end of the day how many fine press Gaiman books do I need? I buy my books for reading, and I'm not that into Gaiman unfortunately.

>7 filox: “how many fine press Gaiman books do I need”

On one hand, I’d love to be able to read every single title from my favorite authors in fine press editions, but on the other Gaiman is nowhere’s near the top of that list for me.

I guess it’s worth recognizing that, from what Rich has shared, we might not be getting a second Lyra’s title if not for Gaiman’s enthusiasm.

I’m a bit surprised by the lack of fanfare around the announcement of this book. The timing was probably not that great, on the heels of the FS LOTR, but I think it’ll be a fantastic edition.

>7 filox: I agree. I own Stardust and am looking forward to Arete Edition's The Case of Death and Honey, but I am nearing my Gaiman limit for now. At least the pipeline for the Lyra's Classics imprint has variety!

I think Neil Gaiman is doing a great service to our community by taking an interest in it! When a Big Name Author notices fine/private press, it can provide an influx of much-needed collectors and prestige to the work. Gaiman's current interest reminds me a lot of John Updike's. Updike worked with a number of fine presses – I have his works from Lord John Press, Sylvester & Orphanos, and Thornwillow – and (as far as I know) without asking for any fee or royalty, just out of love for the craft. His editions brought plenty of new interest.

>10 mnmcdwl:

Have any of the books in the Classics pipeline been announced?

>12 jskalitz: Just A Christmas Carol as far as I'm aware!

>13 NathanOv: A Christmas Carol. How nice. So... classic. And done to death. Oh, well. It'll sell.

I do agree with the general sentiment that there's been a lot of Gaiman - the first two books from Lyra's (Press) and the first two from Arete. From what I gather from the various communications there appear to be several reasons for this. Firstly, the process of acquiring rights is costly and time consuming and going with another Gaiman title was partly to reduce the delay before the next title. Secondly, the creators are Gaiman fans (obviously). And thirdly, as >11 grifgon: well points out, Gaiman is an enthusiastic collaborator in the process, a factor which should not be underestimated. I also believe these will be the last Gaiman titles for a while. Arete, at least, have mentioned quite a few non-Gaiman titles in the pipeline.

The process of acquiring rights for new publishers is quite interesting to me. I suppose it just comes down to the titles selected to chase and a bit of luck. But it's interesting that Lyra's, for example, seem to be having issues even with a proven track record in binding and publishing, while Curious King have already announced two significant series without having any track record (not counting the rebind, which was in any case done by Rich Tong). Is it just a case of 'gift of the gab', haha.

>9 What_What: True, but I think this is partly because no one has seen the books yet. I doubt there would have been much fanfare around the 2020 announcement of Stardust were it not for the accompanying photos of the leather binding.

ETA >14 Glacierman: the thing about 'done to death' is that it's generally for a reason, not least that there are always new generations coming along to enjoy the work. I, for one, don't own any other fine press edition of A Christmas Carol so I'm looking forward to picking this one up. It would also be a very strange business decision to pick an obscure work for editions at these prices.

>15 Levin40: I agree with everything you say except the final sentence. I think that unfairly neglected works deserve their chance to shine and are more exciting than works that exist by multiple publishers as special copies.
No Reply choosing The Ethics of Ambiguity by de Beauvoir is interesting, and more captivating than the usual fare. Of course it is easier to find 50 purchasers of a work rather than 1000 but I do think we should celebrate and laud publishers who show bravery in their choices

>16 DMulvee: I don't disagree with you: brave choices should be lauded. But in the end, we're not the ones running the business and so I stand by my original statement - it would be a strange choice indeed for Lyra's to choose to publish an obscure work for which they then need to find 700+ buyers willing to fork over hundreds or thousands of pounds. As you point out yourself, the number of copies published clearly plays a huge role in determining how much risk can be taken. Lyra's seem to be aiming at the 'popular' side of things and I'm a little surprised that anyone is, well, surprised by that. There will, of course, always be people whinging about whatever titles are chosen but I would note that the numbers whinging about 'popular' works are nothing compared to those who would be complaining (even if with just their wallet) if a really obscure work were chosen :-)

Personally I'm quite happy that someone is committing to such a high end 'classics' range. It'll be interesting to see how they do over the next few years.

>17 Levin40: I am interested in which work they pick next as it will give guidance on what type of company they wish to be. I should state I do plan on buying Coraline, but if it is followed up with a third Gaiman then that wouldn’t interest me

>18 DMulvee: True, I'm also keen to know what the third title will be. A third Gaiman in succession risks being a bit much. Personally, I don't think it will be, but who knows. I'm hoping for His Dark Materials. It'd be a near perfect fit for them.

More Gaiman, please and thank you.

>20 abysswalker:

For me, too. He's one of my favourite authors and his stories work really well for such editions. I've got three different illustrated editions of The Ocean at the End of the Lane, and wouldn't want to miss out on any of them since each is very original, fits the story, and is completely different from the other. If Lyra's or Areté do more, I'm definitely in. I'd love to get Neverwhere or The Truth is a Cave in the Black Mountains in such an edition.

Those illustrations for Coraline look amazing and I'm really looking forward to it. One can hope that this time I might be able to get a numbered edition, the last time there was no purchase button to be seen in my computer, a technical glitch others also encountered. On the secondary market it's so expensive that I've come to be content with my standard edition.

>19 Levin40: "His Dark Materials"

While I've never asked the full story behind their name, it would almost feel wrong for a press called Lyra's not to do His Dark Materials at some point! It also fits firmly in their "dark fantasy" pattern that seems to flow between both imprints.

>22 NathanOv: Phillip Pullman says no.

>15 Levin40: Great post. I was also surprised at how Curious King has already lined up Abercrombie (Tom Arnold), NK Jemisin (di Giovanni), while Lyra's is struggling. Maybe they have their sights on something really huge. I would have liked to see Curious King using illustrators other than what Subterranean Press has used - it's a bit off-putting publishing the same books illustrated by the same cadre of illustrators.

Agreed on the other point someone made - when the prototypes are revealed there should be a lot more chatter.

>11 grifgon: I agree even though I don't know if I'm a Gaiman fan (except that he's partnered with one of my fave musicians). I have to read one of his books. It reminds me of Wendell Berry's relationship and friendship and neighborliness with Larkspur Press, as well as the Press on Scroll Road.

We have a better chance of getting a private press edition of an author we love if the author is also interested in books of that nature. I know if I were a published writer, while sitting in Powells signing a hundred copies of my book in its trade state, I'd love to have a couple of the 100 No Reply Press editions sitting next to me for "that" fan to purchase. Going back to the music example, kinda like when Lucinda Williams is signing and selling all the regular stuff on her merch table after the show but there's that limited edition 180g special pressing of Sweet Old World there for the fans that want a little more...

Probably easier to get the trade publisher to agree to those extra 100 books if the author is also pushing for it. Wish Tolkien had been friends with Luke Pontifell of Thornwillow.

>24 What_What: A lot of rights are bought years before you hear about them, between Lyra and Arete there should be about 5 books a year, I don't mind telling people what is coming up, Frozen Hell, Brave New World, Lud-in-the-Mist, Benjamin Button, but there are problems with saying titles as sometimes it could take years to make, Lud's artist is going to take 18 months to create the art, (it is a load he's doing) and Brave New World has been pushed back by the artist's time lines, and we had to ask for an extension on the rights. Lyra likes to keep his titles under wraps until Rich has nearly finished the book, so all his forthcoming books are kept under wraps. Rights can also take ages to negotiate, I mean up to a year! We are looking for variety, while Curious King have a trilogy that means three years for him, and I think he is doing another trilogy too. When you go for a trilogy you have three books under one contract, For us, three books are three contracts, and they take a long time to organise, unless it is one entity that you are dealing with, but more often than not, it is up to three different publishing houses that need to be agreed simultaneously, let alone dovetailing signatures by authors.

>26 marceloanciano: I don’t have nearly the level of insight, but I’d imagine CKs choice of two authors who not only have a long history with multiple genre / small press publishers, but who also tend to be quite active and easy to engage with plays a role.

With so much potential from the new crop of U.K. presses, I am a little disappointed that they seem to be carbon copies of one another, even sharing the same authors, illustrators, printers, and binders. Starting to feel a little cookie cutter. It's their business, naturally, but I for one would like to see more diversity.

>28 realto: If you're talking about Lyra's, Arete and Hand & Eye it's because they share the same creative team ... In fact, I think Curious King is also continuing to have Rich Tong (or at least Ludlow) handle their bindings, so you're likely to notice some aesthetic overlap there too.

>23 marceloanciano: Well that would do it. Any compelling reasons?

>28 realto:

I'm actually enjoying this, but then so far they're doing great stuff most of which I'm interested in. It would be different if I thought they had terrible illustrators or something of the sort, which happens with some publishers if their taste is very different from mine.

>28 realto: The more the merrier, I say. This cohort seems to be tackling the usual "genre press" territory, but with a much much higher craft quality than is typical. In my opinion, that's a great thing.

>30 SDB2012: Not that I know of

>33 marceloanciano: Interesting. Preaching to the choir but I'd expect most authors would love to have their work published by a team with such a long track record of quality. Perhaps, I'd feel otherwise if I'd written one of the most successful fantasy series of recent decades. The great and mysterious ways of the Pulman...

>32 grifgon: it's a wonderful thing!

A teaser video today showed marbling being applied to black goatskin for the binding of the lettered edition. Looked great, and details of the states should be released soon.

The press shared this photo tease today on facebook:



I believe the marbled leather cover in the top right has been confirmed as the lettered edition, which would make the full leather with the red thread design the numbered, and the standard looks to be a slipcased red clothe though I can't tell what's going on on top / front of the slipcase.

We'll know soon enough though since details should be going up on the website Monday by the sounds of things!

Looks great but I do wish they would deliver the last book I ordered before trying sell me another one...

>38 L.Bloom: To be fair, it's a different imprint - but it sounds like Dorian is going out by the end of the month!

>38 L.Bloom: That’s fair.

Subterranean Press put a book out in July 2021, and the lettered still hasn’t been delivered, even though the numbered has, months ago. To add insult to injury, they put the sequel up for order a month ago. Buyers of the first book have now paid for a lettered 13 months ago with not a single apology, have been asked to pay for the second as well, and they still have no idea what these books are going to look like because SP doesn’t mock them up at order time.

>37 NathanOv: Numbered looks great from what I can see. A definite purchase. Also, the spine looks like it will fit pleasingly in series with the Leather Stardust on the shelf.
I can't tell what's going on on top / front of the slipcase.
Perhaps the lettered portfolio?

>38 L.Bloom: To be fair, it's hardly unusual for publishers to have multiple editions simultaneously on pre-order. If one were to purchase all books from Suntup I believe it would be possible to have something like 8-12 books on pre-order at once. However, as has been mentioned I think in this case Rich is doing his best to get Dorian complete before the Coraline pre-order. With all the small incremental delays to both Dorian and Coraline, I'm wondering if they'll still attempt to release A Christmas Carol this year. I hope so, but the pre-order will have to happen quite soon after Coraline if so.

I'm really looking forward to Coraline and hope very much that buying won't turn out to be a problem. Back when Stardust was published, I was among those who didn't even see an order button for the numbered edition on their website due to a technical glitch. Back then I could live with that, but in hindsight I'm rather frustrated. The book is well beyond my means second hand and I'm sure I would have caved and bought the numbered edition if it hadn't looked sold out to me.

>42 SF-72: Same situation exactly. I did buy the standard edition, but it’s a source of joy and frustration equally, constantly reminding me of the one that got away…

Regarding Coraline: I’m a huge Gaiman fan, and having grown up with the original illustrations by Dave McKean, I’m finding the ones advertised for the upcoming Lyra’s Books edition… underwhelming, I guess? They seem to me like a less scary version of McKean’s imagination. Am I the only one to feel this way?

>44 SF-72:

I enjoy McKean's illustrations a lot (great work!), but these also look very appealing to me. Especially with Gaiman, I'm fascinated with seeing different artists' takes. I have three different illustrated editions of The Ocean at the End of the Lane, each totally different from the others, and love and enjoy all three of them. Each illustrator brings something different to the novel. It looks like Coraline will be the same. That's another one with (soon) three different illustrators, Dave McKean, Chris Riddell, and now Rovina Cai.

>44 SF-72: Well said.
In general, I love to see new takes. That said, there are a few illustrations I truly consider iconic. Two that readily come to mind are Tenniel's illustrations for Alice, and Shepard's illustrations for Pooh. Also, I'd add that Vess' illustrations for Stardust are also a must, since he originally worked with Gaiman to publish the work as a graphic novel back in 1999 :)

Edit: here is another illustration from their forthcoming Coraline, and I think it looks fab

I get a database error when I try to follow the news link from the latest Lyra's press newsletter. The whole website won't load either. Do others have the same problem?

>46 SF-72: I too am experiencing that database connection error. Will check back later.

The Project Page is loading:
https://www.lyrasbooks.com/coraline/

But the Shop page with the photos and pricing isn't, as yet:
https://www.lyrasbooks.com/shop/

There is a LOTTERY for the numbered! A great idea and fair - although I’m really good at free for alls and would likely have a better chance in a scramble.

Delighted there is a lottery

Does anyone know what Madrid Litho mouldmade paper (used in the lettered) is? I googled it and got Magnani Litho so maybe a typo?

>52 DMulvee: my only concern with the lottery is the multiple entry issue. Definitely happened with Dorian lettered - as I recall there were a lot of multiple entries (that were caught)

>50 supercell: I’m pretty happy with that pricing for the Numbered.

>52 DMulvee: Well, I will certainly be entering the lottery for the numbered (and lettered if any make it to lottery) but to be honest I will be quite satisfied with a standard as well. I love the design of it, and while I'd love tipped in plates, I don't know that I necessarily prefer the numbered binding.

That lettered binding is absolutely remarkable though.

I think they have done an excellent job on the pricing, it is very difficult to say which of the three versions is the best option.

For those not on FB, Richard shared this piece on the number of books he plans to publish:

It will likely be one Classics a year. Maybe one Press but that will depend on getting publishing rights and so on. More likely every 18 months or so. I have other projects to work on with other publishers too so my time is quite stretched. It will vary and there might be long periods where there aren’t any books sometimes. This year has already been extremely taxing so I need to keep it scaled back a bit for my own health and sanity!

>58 What_What: I am glad to hear Rich is taking care of himself. If A Christmas Carol makes it's 2022 holiday release, I would not be surprised if the next Lyra's title does not come until 2024.

>58 What_What: Good choice by Rich to prioritize his health rather than churn out books to maximize profit, which he certainly could do given the popularity of the press. From the collector perspective, publishing Press books once every 18 months means that rights are less necessary as there just aren't that many books coming out - so I would be more ok with not getting numbered rights. Contrast this to Curious King, where there are 2 trilogies already in the pipeline (with another announcement soon?) making rights really necessary for their collectors, at least at the numbered level.

Similar to Richard's edition of Stardust, the Numbered Edition of Coraline appears to be the proverbial sweet spot - financially and aesthetically.

>61 dlphcoracl: Agree about the price point but I prefer the standard and lettered aesthetically.

>62 punkzip:

LOL.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. That is why three different editions are created.

From the website "Lettered and Numbered buyers will be given the opportunity to purchase this edition before the live pre-order along with their order of either of the other editions, with a limit of one copy per customer.".

Am i reading correctly that there is potential of the 500 standard copies, that 226 of them could already be purchased before the public preorder, should all numbered and lettered holders chose to buy a standard copy?

The numbered and lettered editions are the only ones signed by Gaiman. To me, that carries a lot of weight. Well, granted, I unfortunately can not afford the lettered edition, but I will save up to purchase the magnificent numbered edition :)
Also, I really think the numbered slipcase is gorgeous -

>64 trentsteel:

126.

>53 punkzip: No, there’s a paper named Madrid Litho, it’s in my paper supplier’s catalog as a separate entry from Magnani Litho. But I’ve only found a very few references to it online otherwise. Perhaps it’s new.

>64 trentsteel: I think you’re interpreting that correctly, as far as I can tell.

>67 CTPress-Tony: The oracle’s answer of 126 is closer to the right answer.

It’s fewer than 126 as there might be people who own both a numbered and lettered, and based on the one copy per household rule, they should only be able to purchase one standard.

So based on no inside information myself, I’d say maybe 100 max could be sold before public preorder.

However, in future, if all 150 numbered (with rights) and lettered holders have the same chance, it could knock another 50 out of circulation before public preorder.

>67 CTPress-Tony: Thanks! How expensive is Madrid Litho compared to other mouldmade papers? It's being used in the lettered so I imagine it's pretty good.

>69 punkzip: I had never heard of it either. Only reference I could find online has it at ~$2.5 per parent sheet. If that's right, that's quite a bit cheaper than the typical mouldmade. Price does not always equal quality, though.

These all look great and the pricing remains competitive too. I'm happy to hear that Rich is now saying 'first half of 2023', which should give time to complete the project to his usual high standards without too much rush and stress...though I'm sure Parkinson's Law will take effect, as it generally does. As >60 punkzip: notes, it's great to hear that he's chosen to prioritise his health (most importantly) and book quality over profit and churning out as many books as possible. Couple of other observations:
- I note that the Standard copies will now be unnumbered. This is a departure from Stardust and I wonder why they decided on a new approach.
- Glad to hear that (unlike for Dorian) shipping costs are now separated out again. This must be partly due to rising costs, but I wasn't too happy about subsidizing US buyers previously (yeah, I'm slightly bitter about astronomical shipping charges when ordering from the US, haha). And besides, US buyers now have the exchange rate strongly on their side so there shouldn't be any complaints.

>72 supercell: Yes, I believe you're right. Minus a handful for those who purchased both the Lettered and Leather editions of Stardust, as mentioned in >68 What_What:.

>72 supercell: I stand corrected! At least in part - those who own multiple copies may not purchase more than one.

>69 punkzip: I’m hesitant to share that information publicly because price isn’t always a good metric when determining quality, and I don’t feel comfortable disclosing any of Rich’s project costs.

Perhaps if you reach out to him directly he can shed some further light on the paper.

Entered both lotteries.

Good to see they are disqualifying people who try to enter multiple times. This happened quite a bit with Dorian lettered.

A bit surprised to see 2 lettered and 10 extra numbered, particularly as rights are coming from another Gaiman book. The economy perhaps?

>76 punkzip: without wishing to be morbid, deaths may also play a part

>77 DMulvee: "without wishing to be morbid, deaths may also play a part"

Without wishing to be morbid, there were 100 numbered Stardust holders. If 10% of them passed away in the interim, I'd be afraid the edition is cursed...

Stardust might draw a slightly different audience from Coraline, the one being a relatively traditional fantasy and romantic story, the other being a horror story about a kid. The different illustrator might also play a role.

I'm just really frustrated that I didn't get an active order button during the Stardust sale - there was none and I thought it was sold out already when it wasn't. With this kind of rights system, chances for a book from the publisher are really slim - and about to get worse, because 60 of the 110 new copies will also get rights from then on. So the pool keeps getting smaller for anyone who didn't get their foot in the door under unfair conditions the first time.

Realistically speaking, I can't afford the crazy secondary prices. And that's leaving aside the fact that I really don't like supporting the kind of people who buy something like this away from people who would really appreciate it just to re-sell it. I recently saw some Pratchetts that people offered for between 20 and 40 times their original value. They were sold out with the publisher within hours, and years later, these people still have them to sell in their original shrink-wrap. To me that's just disgusting and something I won't support. I know that some on here find that quite okay, but I don't. Rant over. ;-)

>79 SF-72: I agree. As the Stardust purchasing process was technically flawed (as per Rich’s admission), perhaps it would have been fairer not to carry on any rights from Stardust, and to start anew with a lottery for all 200 numbered copies of Coraline.

Which is a moot point, of course, as things won’t change now. But, like a few fellow members, I still can’t get over the frustration of missing out on the numbered Stardust, despite being on Lyra’s website the second the sale went live….

>76 punkzip: i have a leather Stardust and passed on Coraline. I'm just not interested in yet another Gaiman. I struggled to finish Stardust and realized that I don't like his writing so I'm happy for his fans to get one extra copy.

>80 BorisG:
The only reliable way to get a Leather or Lettered Stardust was shooting an email to Rich during the 30 minutes or so period when it was revealed on a FB group he is accepting reservations. That's how I got mine (and consider myself incredibly lucky). Ordered Coraline naturally, and these books will stay with me.

>76 punkzip:
>81 filox:
>82 Raenas:

Frankly, I was quite surprised to find that 24 of 26 owners of the Lettered Edition and 90 of 100 owners of the Numbered Edition of Stardust exercised their option for Coraline. I did not think Coraline would have the same appeal nor did I think another Neil Gaiman novel would meet with the same enthusiastic response.

>80 BorisG:

"Perhaps it would have been fairer not to carry on any rights from Stardust and start anew with a lottery for all 200 numbered copies of Coraline."

Despite your disappointment and frustration, that makes little sense. The fact remains that 100 collectors DID figure out how to obtain a copy and, frankly, it was not difficult. Penalizing one hundred collectors to appease the handful who did not obtain a copy of the Numbered Edition of Stardust simply replaces one flaw in the ordering process with a much greater one.

>83 dlphcoracl:
But was it ever suggested at the time that the numbered Stardust offering would be the starting point of a rights system?

>83 dlphcoracl:
Think the appeal is not only because of the content of the book (although good stuff), but because Rich and his creative circle (Phil, Marcelo, etc) are kind of modern fine press superstars right now based on what they achieved with Stardust and Death & Honey.

There are quite a few great printers around, but such a unison of printing, book design, illustration and binding are rarely seen, where all aspects work together as a whole to elevate a book into an object of art. Most well printed fine press books usually use uninspired binding (quality notwithstanding), or great binding comes without fine letterpress (e.g. some lettered Suntup). This team has a unique vision and lots of book geeks want to be a part of their journey.

>84 GusLogan:

Totally irrelevant.

The primary consideration was, as it should be, whether someone wanted the book. Unlike the Folio Society deluxe edition of Terry Pratchett's Mort, which sold out within five minutes, it was obtainable without that much effort. Few people would have purchased it to become part of an expensive Rights System with future titles sight unseen, with titles and book design details yet to be determined.

>83 dlphcoracl: As far as I remember, Rich said himself that because of a technical flaw, some people (including me) were unable even to see an order button for the numbered edition. It appeared once you put a standard edition in your shopping basket. By the time I did that (11 mins after the sale went live), the remaining numbered copies were sold out. Perhaps this qualifies as ‘not that difficult to get’ in your eyes, but not in mine...

I guess you could argue that this was essentially a lottery already.

>86 dlphcoracl: the FS Mort sold out in 13 hours, if I remember correctly. I have a copy and I certainly ordered well later in the day.

Edit: missed word.

>83 dlphcoracl:

How are you getting these numbers about Coraline? Are they posted somewhere?

>86 dlphcoracl: The Mort LE lasted 11 hours. No Folio Society edition has ever sold out in 5 minutes.

It’s probably also inaccurate to say Stardust was obtainable within much effort. You either had to be on his email list, when he started taking pre-orders, or be on FB when he announced it as you said. Shortly after, pre-orders stopped or there would be nothing for launch day.

Failing that, you had to be lucky to have added a standard to your cart to be able to add the numbered to your cart, otherwise it just wouldn’t let you.

I’m not surprised 90% of buyers used their option to purchase Coraline. Why wouldn’t they? It’s the same printer, same binder, same designer, same author, same quality, similar price.

I do agree there’s nothing to be done at this point about the hiccups for the first book, just have to move on.

>91 What_What: Why wouldn’t they? It’s the same printer, same binder, same designer, same author, same quality, similar price.

I didn't precisely because it was the same author. I don't want Lyra's to become a Gaiman imprint. If they published anything else I'd probably have exercised the option

>92 filox:
Rich is working on getting rights for other contemporary authors as well - but these take long time. The reason the second book is also Gaiman, because he is easy to work with - no need to jump through lengthy hoops to get something printed and he is very collaborative. Since Rich needed to get something out of the door, he went to the person where he gets immediate approval so that the work is not held up. There will be other authors coming. And for a new press, starting with signed Gaiman is not bad at all, especially that the author is directly collaborating in the design (cue red thread). It will make a nice set with Stardust, and really happy with it. If the quality stays at this level, I will buy anything the press puts out with pleasure.

>93 Raenas: i understand why he did it, i was trying to explain why someone would choose not to exercise their option if they already had Stardust as it seems quite a few people find this baffling.

Meanwhile I am interested in this book while being comprehensively uninterested in Stardust, because I'm fairly indifferent to Gaiman (I've read some of his stuff, it was fine but he's far from a must-read or must-collect for me) but enthusiastic about Rovina Cai. Everyone has their own reasons for collecting.

Been having a bad week, but as a bright spot got an email saying that I won the lottery for a numbered Coraline with rights.

Alas no luck for me in the lottery (I tried for both the numbered and lettered). Oh well, maybe next time!

>96 punkzip: That’s some great luck! I won numbered, but no rights.

I didn't get an email. It's hugely disappointing, but exactly what I expected.

Congratulations to those who did.

>101 hayshaka: Well that seems rather selfish. Hope this is a joke…

>102 Nightcrawl: Hmmm, message deleted. Now I am curious exactly what the author was saying...
Oh, and apparently this person
This member has been removed.
(Member either removed themselves or was removed by staff.)
Perhaps just another spammer. We have had quite a few of them the past 24 hours. Probably just one person or a bot...

>103 astropi: They also were message 89.

Based on them being called “selfish” I wonder if they acquired more than 1 copy

>104 DMulvee: I saw the message and it was saying that the poster had 15 people apply for them and was waiting to hear from one of the 15 people. Obviously a joke IMO.

Having said that, it would not be that difficult to cheat if one wanted to. There were a substantial number of confirmed cheaters in the Dorian lettered lottery, but those were probably people who applied using the same name under different email addresses. Given that it was stated in this lottery that people who applied multiple times would have all their entries invalidated, cheaters (if any) would have had to ask close friends/family to enter for them - which is what the deleted post was saying in an exaggerated way.

>105 punkzip: Lotteries can be manipulated, but I still think they are the fairest method. I noticed on Sunday that the deadline was extended by 12 hours from midnight until midday, and had erroneously hoped that this meant there hadn’t been that many entries

>105 punkzip: Yup, exactly. I was hoping it was a joke too. But the way that the member so quickly deleted their post, and then was removed (likely removed themselves), leads me to believe otherwise. And if it wasn’t a joke, then this person likely will secure a copy, which is very disheartening to those of us who weren’t lucky this time around.

>107 supercell: I had thought it was 48 hours, but believed the website said the deadline was midnight and then it changed to midday. Was this a typo that was updated on the website? Or did I imagine this?

>105 punkzip: while it does seem sketchy to have multiple people applying for for one person, just to play devils advocate: does having a rights system like a fair system to begin with? It makes it that much more difficult for a person to get a copy and favors the people who got lucky the first go, for as long as the publisher allows it.

>110 propofol22: I happen to think that rights make sense for series only - where if you buy the first book you want to be guaranteed the rest of the series. However I don’t think rights are as a big of an issue for Lyra’s. The classic line - at least the numbered- seems easy to obtain without rights. The Press line will definitely be harder but won’t be published too often - every 18 months as I understand. It’s really a publisher like Curious King where is it really unfair as someone with numbered rights has 3 series locked in just because of one purchase - and I say this as someone with CK numbered rights.

>100 SF-72:

No, a rights system like this isn't fair. And as has been stated above, a lottery can be very easily manipulated. It's much easier to have 20 friends, family members etc. get into the lottery for you than for them to have to sit in front of a computer at a specific time and actively buy / pay for something. This mix of a rights system (based on reading a Facebook post at just the right time or not being stopped by a poorly programmed website during the actual sale) and then a lottery is the worst of all possible combinations I've come across. To top it all off, those who are already lucky enough to get a lettered or numbered edition can then take a standard edition each out of the already very small pool. I was looking forward to this edition very much, but Lyra's are really killing all that for me. It's the worst combination of making it exceedingly hard for any but a very small number of (partly unfairly and most of them constantly) privileged people to actually buy this at the publisher's price. Areté are approaching this in a much better way. I wish Coraline was in their hands, not Lyra's.

>111 punkzip:

I agree about the rights for series. The method used by Suntup, Curious King and now Lyra's pushes people into buying when they don't really want something so they won't lose their exclusive rights, excludes people who really want a specific book, and it's obviously a dream for scalpers. I'm really glad that several smaller publishers haven't jumped on that particular train. Hats off to them. They might be taking a bigger risk of not selling out quite so fast, but it's much more customer friendly.

>112 SF-72: I suspect the standard will be easily available if you log on when it starts. The CK Blade itself took about 9 hours to sell out and that’s the first of a trilogy. I will very likely decline the standard myself.

>114 supercell: I don’t think they did anything wrong, that had stated 48 hours and it was 48 hours, just something that I took as a sign that perhaps I would have a good chance, and unfortunately it wasn’t to be

>115 punkzip: Do we know exactly when the standard will be up for sale yet? I live in CA and don’t want to miss it.

Maybe an obvious question, but it's the first time I've bought a book from the UK. Are there taxes or extra money to pay when the book arrives in the US?

>119 LostStar: no

>112 SF-72: I'm glad to hear you say this as something about this process has frustrated me in a way I haven't experienced before with other publishers. I think a limited rights system can make sense, but there just seem to be too many rights holders for this, plus the fact that those who are buying the numbered/lettered copies have an early chance to scalp the regular edition too, thereby diminishing an already low stock for those of us who couldn't get the numbered/lettered version. I don't see how that element is remotely fair.

I also am not a fan of the lack of transparency inherent in a 'lottery' system. I appreciate Lyra's is trying to do the right thing and there is bound to be someone complaining whatever option they choose, but I always feel that if you give everyone a fair chance to get onto a website and procure whatever is being sold, no one can really complain if they fail to secure it. I didn't succeed in getting a numbered copy of Stardust, and didn't really mind as I felt I had a chance to try my best; whereas my failure with Coraline has left me feeling a little disappointed. This isn't helped by what seems me the inanity of having separate rights for the 'Lyra's Classics' and 'Lyra's Press' labels. I mean, they produce like one book a year between them and are really going to make you get separate rights to both labels? Part of the reason I spent close to £600 on Dorian was I thought I would get rights for future Lyra's titles. I didn't buy Dorian because I only want to buy classic books; I bought it because I was really impressed by the quality of Stardust and wanted to keep supporting Lyra's. It feels a little disappointing that now I'm stuck with rights to a separate line of books I might not actually want, whereas it felt like I didn't even have a proper shot to secure one of the books I do.

Apologies for the rant - I think Lyra's produces outstanding books and really I'm just disappointed to have 'rights' for the line of their books I probably am less interested in, and for what feels like a lack of transparency in the lottery process. If they are going to reward repeat customers (which I presume is the point of a rights-based system), it feels frustrating having already spent so much money with them between Stardust and Dorian and then to be at the back of the random lottery queue for Coraline. But again, I appreciate they are trying their best. I just hope they might revisit some of these points in the future (and that those who have secured their copy of Coraline enjoy it!)

>121 RHalley63: Couldn’t have said it better. As someone new to fine press and trying to get a foot in the door, it’s been extremely discouraging knowing that basically 50% have already been claimed by the time the lottery rolls around. I really don’t think they would have a hard time selling copies if they got rid of the rights system and had a new lottery/staggered selling system for new books.

>121 RHalley63:

I know exactly how you feel, well said.

>121 RHalley63: I think Rich is making one of the strongest efforts at a fair collector-first approach, but you’re right that it could still be improved.

I think collecting mailing addresses with the lottery submissions would deter a good amount of people from having others sign up for them, and stop anyone who intended to create multiple listings themselves. Though how they’d accommodate people moving would be a bit of an issue.

I also wish, even though it would be near impossible to enforce, that they would state a rule against selling preorders.

Unfortunately, I think Lyra’s non-transferable rights and Curious King’s rights-stay-with-the-book systems have just made resellers more patient rather than stopping them from profiting off rights as I believe was the intent.

>121 RHalley63: Part of the reason I spent close to £600 on Dorian was I thought I would get rights for future Lyra's titles

I'm sorry, but that's on you. Rich went through a lot of effort to explain the rights system, sending emails and writing a blog post explaining how they work. You can complain about a lot of things about Lyra's; lack of information is not one of them.

>121 RHalley63: I appreciate Lyra's is trying to do the right thing and there is bound to be someone complaining whatever option they choose, but I always feel that if you give everyone a fair chance to get onto a website and procure whatever is being sold, no one can really complain if they fail to secure it.

I don't think that's fair at all. It's a very Eurocentric way of looking at things. Not everyone lives in Europe or Europe-friendly time zones. For someone living in Oz, they'd have to get up at like 3am in order to buy a book (just ask Mr. Carter about his experiences). Not to mention folks with poor Internet connections, those who happen to be on holiday or are for other reasons unable to participate at a very specific time. I think lotteries are much fairer in this respect, if one can reasonably solve the multiple entrants problem.

>124 NathanOv: The address thing is an interesting idea, but how do you enforce it if someone asks to change their shipping address? Just refuse to? Or ask to see their driver's license with the old address and the new address?

As for creating a rule banning the sale of pre-orders, you say it's near impossible - what part is actually possible?

>125 filox: I agree with you. There's an entire FAQ and even a diagram explaining what >121 RHalley63: was purchasing. Rich couldn't have done anything more to make that clear.

>125 filox: Agreed. And in fact there's really no such thing as "fair opportunity" when so many scalpers use bots and other tricks to purchase scarce and collectible items. This happens all the time, every day, with collectibles, tickets, etc. You might say "sure, but no one would do that here" which is laughable. Of course they would! Maybe not to the same extent as in other venues, but definitely people use whatever tricks they can. You might say "well, Rich can take care of that" and my response would be - can he really? First, it's very tricky. Major companies (Sony, Ticketmaster, etc) have problems with such issues. Secondly, Rich is of course one individual. How would he know how to do all this?

So at the end of the day, nothing is perfect. I personally would love a system where someone says "We're going to produce X amount of books where X is the number of people who pre-order within this 30 day period" or something like that. Of course, that too has it's issues and for the most part is not something a fine press like Lyra can do. But, I appreciate Rich and others trying their best.

>126 What_What: On addresses, I was going to say that they would have to stick to whatever fake name / details they gave, but on reflection I would assume Rich woud catch the vast majority of these individuals when he sends the invoice and sees who payment comes from. That said, I don't think asking to see a piece of mail with the name / address would be too invasive or troublesome for a handful of cases, especially if stated in advance as a rule to deter people from trying this in the first place.

As far as banning preorder sales, again it's more a deterrent. I think most buyers and potential sellers would honor it, and with so many of these sales happening in moderated forums (i.e, Facebook), I'm sure the administrators would enforce such a rule as well.

>128 NathanOv: If sharing the addresses at lottery time scared away a lot of those who may have tried something funny, then perhaps it wouldn't be too many legit cases to sort through, true.

Administrators do seem to help enforce the rules the presses put into place, but I guess I can't imagine any press that would dare try to tell people what they can do with their own property. And there are also other ways to sell books anyway.

>127 astropi: You could probably see the number that was sold on Ebay, and research what scalper received that number. Still, the seller could just not picture the number being sold, and I doubt publishers want to go through time involved tracking down scalpers. It sucks, because even if you were to remove the current scalpers, a crop of new ones will show up. Funny how some were saying the new $600 IRS limit for sold goods was going to ease scalping a bit. Yeah, right.

>129 What_What: “I can't imagine any press that would dare try to tell people what they can do with their own property.”

Well it’s the press’s property until they deliver it. This is always such a funny argument to me, because it happens in so many other ways, yet people only seem to get touchy about it when it comes to their potential to profit. I personally don’t believe in an inherent human right to capitalize.

>131 NathanOv: I rather my publishers spend more time making books, and less time patrolling the internet looking for the limitation number of eBay listings selling the 5% of their books that get flipped, and other such nonsense.

>132 What_What: Well that’s not something I’ve ever recommended they do.

All I’ve suggested is ways to improve on the attempts publishers like Lyra’s are already making to get books directly to their end-collectors, since that’s something many publishers clearly value and feel is worth at least a tiny bit of their time.

>125 filox: I think possibly you're interpreting what I said more strongly than I meant it. I said very clearly I trust Lyra's is trying to do the right thing, and that however they did it I have no doubt there would be people complaining. It's an impossible situation to please everyone when you have more demand than there is supply. I was just trying to share my perspective. At the end of the day I appreciate the effort at fairness as well as the beautiful books being produced.

You are entirely mistaken in your allegation of 'Eurocentricity'. I spend a fair bit of time outside the EU and have set my alarm for 4am and other ungodly hours in order to secure things in the EU I wanted (and vice versa when I've been in the EU and needed to purchase things abroad at a certain time). I appreciate you might not want to have to contend with unsociable hours but frankly there is never a time that is entirely convenient for everyone; often I would prefer a time that is very early or very late as opposed to a time in the middle of the work day when I may be unable to find the time to access my computer. But I appreciate these things are never perfect for everyone, and we do the best we can. You are entitled to prefer a lottery based system, and I understand that perspective, but I dare so I equally have every right to say that in my experience i would prefer something else.

Regarding the rights point, that's fair enough, although my ultimate point was a broader one - I wasn't complaining about lack of information as such (it's been such a long time now since I ordered Stardust and Dorian that I don't remember exactly how the pre-orders worked, and yes, I agree that is of course down to me) so much as the fact that it seems a shame to me to have bifurcated rights systems in place for the two labels when ultimately very few books being produced, and equally, it feels disappointing if there are such systems in place to then have spent so much money with the publisher previously and be relegated to the bottom of the lottery for the 'other' imprint just the same.

I'm not saying I am owed anything; I am just voicing my thoughts in the expectation that others might feel similarly, and perhaps it could help to improve the process in future. But I think I've made clear from the beginning I think Lyra's does great work and are surely only trying to do this fairly, which I respect.

>121 RHalley63:
>134 RHalley63:

"This isn't helped by the inanity of having separate rights for the 'Lyra's Classic' and 'Lyra's Press labels."

"It seems a shame to me to have bifurcated rights systems in place for the two labels.....".

Frankly, I think it makes perfect sense to separate the rights for the two labels for the following reasons:

Someone who has Rights to one of the two labels will, to a certain and finite extent, feel obligated to purchase the next book in the series, even if it not a title one would normally buy. Why? Because if one gives up his/her Rights, the following book may be of great interest and prove to be unobtainable without the Rights. Clearly, this can be an expensive proposition and it becomes doubly so if the Rights to the two different divisions (labels) are combined. Equally important, these are two different genres (sci-fi/fantasy/horror vs. classic literature) that have little overlap for most readers and collectors. Stated differently, I do not want to feel compelled to buy 'Dorian Gray' to keep my Rights to purchase the next Lyra's Press edition.

To make this a bit more realistic: I own Rights to the 'Lyra's Press' books after purchasing the Numbered Edition of Stardust. While 'Coraline' is a book I would not normally have bought, I exercised my option and purchased the Numbered Edition in the hope that the next (third) book in the 'Lyra's Press' series is something I find compelling. The problem will arise if the third book is this series is also of middling interest to me. At that point, I will probably take a pass on it and reluctantly relinquish my Rights. If the Rights were combined (Press and Classics) I would almost certainly be forced to give up my Rights much sooner.

Rich Tong got this one right and his decision to keep the Rights for the Press books and Classics separate makes sense, making it much more likely that his collector's will not find themselves buying expensive books they are not enthusiastic about.

Incidentally, a corollary to this is the separate question of maintaining a subscription to a specific private press, promising to purchase ALL of their editions to obtain a -30% discount on each book. I do not have a subscription to any private press because even the best of them, e.g., Foolscap Press, Nawakum Press, Barbarian Press, The Salvage Press, etc., will publish books I have no collecting interest in 1/3 to 1/2 of the time.

>135 dlphcoracl:

"While 'Coraline' is a book I would not normally have bought, I exercised my option and purchased the Numbered Edition in the hope that the next (third) book in the 'Lyra's Press' series is something I find compelling. "

And that's exactly what I intensely dislike about a rights system. I would have loved to buy this book and couldn't, you didn't really want it and bought it to secure your rights for future editions you may or may not have an interest in. That's not a good way of selling books in my opinion.

>136 SF-72: Sounds like a perfect opportunity for >135 dlphcoracl: to make you an offer at list price ;-)

I think I can sum up the last 40 or so comments as follows:
- Those with rights: the system is basically fine, nothing to see here
- Those without rights or who failed to acquire a copy through the lottery: I'm incredibly frustrated, the system sucks and needs drastic improvement

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is how it's always gonna be, at least for as long as Rich continues to create incredibly desirable books and demand greatly outstrips supply.

>137 Levin40: "I think I can sum up the last 40 or so comments as follows:
- Those with rights: the system is basically fine, nothing to see here"

I have numbered rights for both Lyra's Press and Curious King (arguably the most valuable rights nowadays, as Suntup and Lyra's Classics rights - for example- are easy to obtain). While I am certainly happy that I secured rights - just through luck basically - as it makes future purchases easy and guaranteed if I want, I don't see any strong reason buying one book should give me the ability to purchase future books. For the Blade Itself, yes I need to be able to guarantee the 2nd and 3rd books of the trilogy, but why should there be rights to the NEXT unrelated trilogy?

Of course there is the matching number argument, but how important is that really? This can also lead to economically dysfunctional behavior, such as selling books at losses to just keep a number or buying books you don't want to begin with and then having to dump them in fire sales when the economy goes south (i.e., Suntup, where some of the lettered rights holders have likely lost thousands).

It's interesting that virtually all the new entrants - Conversation Tree Press for example - have jumped on the rights train, although with modifications from the Suntup system to allow the ability to purchase outside the rights system. CTP will have a separate rights system for their weird fiction line (separate from the line starting with Peter Pan) which is 20 books, publishing 1-2 books a year! Stepping back, does this make sense? How many people are going to stay on the "train" that long - maybe 10-20 years? - just to keep the same number? Who knows what will happen, both to the collector and the press, in 20 years? From the press perspective, I can see the argument for the rights system - it will help sell the more obscure titles in the weird line..

>138 punkzip: but why should there be rights to the NEXT unrelated trilogy?
That's no different from what many other presses are doing, for example Suntup and Lyra's. The rights are with the press itself rather than any particular titles or series (ok, I know Lyra's have their classics line). It's just one system among many.

Regarding Curious King, their rights might be the 'most valuable' but I would note that neither they nor Conversation Tree Press have actually put out a book yet, and seem a long way from doing so. I would not want to make any bets as to when (or if) their rather ambitious plans are realised, not least as they're both user Ludlow's, who seem barely able to keep up with the titles in their home lines (Lyra's, Aretes) which they're trying to put out. Their strategy of announcing and hyping titles many, many years in advance, and without any clear timeframe, is the complete opposite of the likes of Folio, who keep everything under wraps until the title is nearing completion. Time will tell whether such a strategy is a good one.

>138 punkzip: "Regarding Curious King, their rights might be the 'most valuable' but I would note that neither they nor Conversation Tree Press have actually put out a book yet. I would not want to make any bets as to when (or if) their rather ambitious plans are realised, not least as they're both user Ludlow's, who seem barely able to keep up with the titles in their home lines (Lyra's, Aretes) which they're trying to put out. Their strategy of announcing and hyping titles many, many years in advance, and without any clear timeframe, is the complete opposite of the likes of Folio, who keep everything under wraps until the title is nearing completion. Time will tell whether such a strategy is a good one."

As I see it, CK and CTP, as the newest entrants, are coming in on the tail end of a pandemic-driven boom. IMO, the future is quite uncertain. People are shifting back to spending on services rather than goods. It's a dangerous time for economies, with either persistent inflation or attempts to curb inflation possibly leading to recession (with declining real estate and stock portfolios even worse than inflation for many buyers). Not a good time to be selling luxury goods without an established brand name. It's clear that the press which has arguably benefited the most from the boom, Suntup, is already on the downside, with overly optimistic pandemic-driven publication schedules and limitations running up against economic reality. So as I see it, both CK and CTP need to publicize their new endeavors as much as possible now, as who knows what the situation will be in year? FS is in a much different boat, being a long-established publisher with an established customer base.

>140 punkzip: I don’t disagree with anything you have said but it will be interesting to see what the FX markets has done to publishers. If I (a U.K. consumer) were purchasing a book from a US publisher in January compared with today, it costs 26% more in £ today (assuming the amount in US $ has stayed the same). So US fine publishers might see less demand, whilst the U.K. based ones have effectively dropped in price by 20% (in the eyes of US consumers) over the same period and so these might be more resilient in demand (this doesn’t apply to the FS).

>139 Levin40: "Regarding Curious King, their rights might be the 'most valuable'" I think the ridiculously high pricing we are seeing is from resellers not being able to keep rights without the book, therefore having to cash out all at once. Given the Standard Editions are all letterpress and a limitation increase for numbereds has already been announced, the only "value" that CK rights hold at the moment in my opinion is a bit of convenience and peace of mind.

I also think that once their rights begin splitting by series, or expiring after the next preorders we'll see a pretty strong price correction.

>137 Levin40:

Unfortunately not. But if there should be someone here who isn't really interested in their Coraline to keep for themselves, but bought it for the rights, I would be very happy about a private message.

>143 supercell:

Thank you for letting us know. I don't have high hopes, though.

>125 filox:

I understand completely about different time zones, I've had to get up at rather unpleasant times of the night when it comes to some US sales that start in the local evening. However, I know that a small number of sellers solve this problem by selling their stock in two 'batches' at very different times to give everyone a fair chance, no matter where they live. It seems like a good solution to what's usually an issue for people in Australia, for example, who are at a disadvantage with a lot of times that work for buyers in the US or Europe.

I don’t think rights are the problem here. Rights for numbered editions, especially non-transferable are just fine and dandy imo. I think Rich has done a good job trying to keep balance there with a number with rights and a number without. I gave mine up because I have zero interest in spending close to $1000 (cad) on Coraline. I don’t like the book near enough for that and I refuse to play the rights game and be the reason someone else misses out on a beautiful edition of a book they love for a non-absurd price in the secondary market.

I’ll consider purchasing the standard edition. However, I find it slightly ridiculous that rights holders could theoretically reduce the number of standard editions available by a couple hundred before it hits public sale. That part I disagree with wholeheartedly. Not to mention the fact that given secondary market prices, any of the rights holders buying the numbered and standard could likely sell their standard on the secondary market later to basically cover the cost of the numbered. I’m sure many won’t do this, but the fact it’s possible in the preorder (and seemingly almost encouraged by how it’s set up) is quite unfair and discouraging from a press that initially seemed to have a good idea with their partial rights system.

>143 supercell: It’s like in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when they think all of the golden tickets have been found, but one was a fake. Now Charlie has one last chance. Fingers crossed! Hahah

Message deleted.

I find it interesting that, almost without exception, every discussion about rights systems that I've seen across different sites fails to consider the legitimate advantages rights systems offer the businesses that are promulgating them. All of the discussions focus on the advantages and disadvantages for, and relative fairness to, collectors.

Being completely frank, and at the risk of offending some folks (which is not my intent), I think it speaks to how little insight most collectors actually have into why these publishers make the decisions they do (and I will broadly include in this people who profess to have insight into Folio Society's motives for various practices, as well, even though they don't have any rights systems in place, and are not properly part of this particular discussion).

>148 whytewolf1:

I can understand this with small presses that have trouble selling their books, and it also makes complete sense to me to guarantee rights to a series. But let's face it: Lyra's really don't need rights to sell their books ( especially not in this line), they'd sell easily without that. And in that case they would go to people who really care about that specific book and not getting / keeping rights. That's my problem with it. I don't have a problem with the Subterranean Press system, for example, where anyone can buy when a new series is introduced and afterwards you can continue the series with rights and leftovers are sold freely to anyone interested. And you can't just buy up other editions of the same book either. It really depends on how a rights system is handled, in addition to if it's actually needed for the seller.

>145 GhostOfKasparHauser: Why is the “resale boogeyman” only a major concern for the lettered/numbered persons pre-ordering the standard?

Also, there was a poll on FB and it was almost evenly split - just as many pre-order customers said they’d purchase a standard as those who said they wouldn’t.

It wasn’t all 200 customers, but maybe 40-50.

Standard edition goes live 7pm BST today.

Looks like it's all sold out?

>152 What_What: Not quite - orders were paused due to technical issues. Rich posted it may be as late as tomorrow that they're back up.

Seems people were getting errors and reordering, resulting in tons of duplicate and even triplicate orders being processed. Even with that though, the site was still showing copies available so I think there will be plenty left.

>155 supercell: What do you mean "cleaned up their Facebook page"? All previous posts and comments are still visible to me.

>155 supercell: You mean allocation-by-lottery for those who do not have rights from Dorian?

I wouldn't call the Coraline lotteries smooth or fair, especially since there were clearly opportunities for unscrupulous people to get more than one copy, while a lot of really interested people never had a fair chance. With the admittedly problematic standard edition sale, there was a fair chance. But I can well imagine that the hassle was huge for Lyra's because of the need to do all those refunds / cancellations. Still, I prefer it a lot from a buyer's point of view and hope that they will just get their system to work properly, problem solved. It's not like that's hugely difficult judging by the fact that many other sellers have working sale websites that can handle huge interest.

>160 SF-72: "I wouldn't call the Coraline lotteries smooth or fair, especially since there were clearly opportunities for unscrupulous people to get more than one copy, while a lot of really interested people never had a fair chance."

But honestly, isn't this always the case, that "a lot of really interested people never had a fair chance."? I mean, scalpers gonna scalp. And frankly, the "mad rush-to-buy" method clearly disadvantages people with slow connections, with lackluster tech skills, in inconvenient time zones, and/or with inflexible work and/or family commitments.

I think Rich has bent over backward to try to make access fair and to discourage scalping, but there's simply no method that's going to be equally fair to everyone in all cases.

I wonder if an auction would work. Have a preorder period during which customers submit their bids. The publisher sets a floor for the bids (the retail price). Bids are private, so no one knows what others are bidding. If there are 100 copies for sale, the 100th highest bid sets the price for all 100 copies. If fewer than 100 people bid, the price is the retail price. This way people who really want a book can get it. Resellers are less likely to bid because their premium is already factored into the price. And the publisher receives the market value for its product.

>162 lgrazian: Please no. That sounds like the worst of both worlds.

>161 whytewolf1:

It's been discussed before so I certainly don't have anything new to offer there. But just to give you some examples: A friend of mine often stays at work so she can do orders with a faster connection (her home connection is quite slow) and unless it's an extremely small limitation, she can manage with her slow connection at home anyway. I've been getting up at inconvenient times to buy a book. I still feel it's fairer than the lottery system, if only because people who are willing to get invested like this at least have a better chance than in a system where people with lots of acquaintances, relatives, employees etc. can play the system. There is no way of preventing that with a lottery. It's much less likely that a scalper can get who knows how many people front of a computer at a specific time for them.

I'm a bit surprised a lottery is even being considered given that the numbered Dorian took about a week to sell out as I recall.

By any chance, anyone heard of any news of whether all copies are sold out or if there are remaining copies that will be put up on a later date? Seems like it's been quite some time since the sale and no news since.

>166 lzy23: There haven't been further updates on this. From the clues Rich dropped a while back, I think it's likely that he's flat out trying to get A Christmas Carol ready for Christmas. Knowing how long Dorian took, and given that there are only few weeks remaining now before the book needs to be sold and shipped, I imagine it's going to be tight. Coraline has likely taken a backseat, given that it won't be ready until mid 2023.

>167 Levin40: I assumed at this point A Christmas Carol was pushed to 2023, but maybe you’re right!

>168 NathanOv: I had occasion to email Rich a few weeks ago on a different matter, but also asked at that time if he was still planning to try to get A Christmas Carol out before the end of the year, and as of then, he was, though obviously, that could have changed in the time since.

New email update from the press: around 150 copies of Standard Coraline remaining, but likely to be put back up for sale after Christmas Carol has completed/shipped.

Also a Christmas Carol looks stunning!

>171 Praveenna_Nagaratnam: It turned out to be a really, really, nice book, Gary has done another of his passion projects and I feel it shows in the work he did.

>170 lzy23:

And likely yet another lottery. I'm so glad I managed to buy a copy during the normal sale, lotteries reduce one's chances considerably in my experience.

>173 SF-72: Looks like there will be 3 upcoming lotteries:

Lottery for the remaining rights-bearing copies of Christmas Carol (from those who don't exercise their rights from Dorian).
Lottery for the 100 non-rights bearing copies of Christmas Carol
Lottery for the remaining 150 standard copies of Coraline (this one looks tentative).

Of the 3 lotteries I think that only the first (for the remaining rights-bearing copies of Christmas Carol) is probably necessary (the latter two are very unlikely to sell out fast enough to make speed an issue). However, it does look like lotteries will be the way going forward for Lyra's.

>171 Praveenna_Nagaratnam: Indeed!

>174 punkzip: That's how I read it too. Surely that'll be very tight given that he'll need to allow a few days to a week between the initial pre sale (for rights holders) and the first lottery, then again between the two Christmas Carol lotteries. And we're already mid November, and it might be another couple of weeks before even the first pre sale takes place. I would have thought it would make more sense - both for himself and for customers - to hold a single lottery and the first numbers to be selected are those offered any rights copies. Maybe that's what he means.

>173 SF-72: I understand that you personally don't like lotteries (it's been discussed a number of times) but maybe spare a thought for Rich here. He's had headaches with the online sales for both Stardust and Coraline. I assume he's selected the method least likely to give him a heart attack!

What a nice surprise! I wonder if any copies will actually make it the US ahead of the holidays, though I don't expect that to be a major consideration.

>176 Levin40: I assume it will be one lottery for A Christmas Carol, with rights assigned randomly as they were in the Coraline lottery.

>177 NathanOv: I think that Rich intends to reach all countries before christmas including the US.

Why would the US be any different, if the books are all getting made and shipped at the same time? Packages get to North America in a day or two.

>172 marceloanciano: Love Gary's art! Definitely can't wait to get this ❤

>176 Levin40:

It's not just me personally, and yes, I understand why he would arrive at this 'solution', which would be most comfortable for him, but rather unfair in other ways since cheating is so easy for some. But having the website and payment methods programmed properly would also solve this. I can't claim to know my way around this, but lots of other book sellers get this done despite intense interest for their books.

>179 What_What: Lucky you. 10-14 days is what I usually see.

>182 NathanOv: I think that Rich wants to send them out in time to accommodate sending to the US last time I spoke to him about it.

>183 marceloanciano: Thanks for confirming!

Has Rich Tong announced his intentions (schedule) with regard to sending out Coraline or is this edition on hold until he completes shipping A Christmas Carol?

Rich posted the following on Lyra's Facebook page in mid-November:

Coraline – there are still around 150 copies of the standard edition available but I think we are now going to have to leave the sale of those until after I’ve completed and shipped A Christmas Carol. I had hoped to sell them a lot sooner but A Christmas Carol has a very specific and tight deadline and I have needed to put all of my energy and time into getting those books bound. The timing with shipping Dorian Gray didn’t help matters either! With Christmas Carol, every single day means hitting another deadline for one process or another so I am not able to take any time away from that right now. I expect the sale of the remaining standard editions of Coraline to happen very early in the new year and they will most likely be sold via lottery.

I believe he also said he expects Coraline to be delivered in the first half of 2023 but I can't find that at the moment.

>185 dlphcoracl: >186 Redshirt: Yes, the estimate on the order pages (really not sure why they hide these after the preorder?) says first half of 2023 for delivery.

>186 Redshirt:
>187 NathanOv:

Thank you for the info.

If anyone failed to order a standard edition of this last year and wanted one, the remaining copies are up for lottery today: https://www.lyrasbooks.com/shop/coraline/coraline-standard-edition/

>189 ambyrglow: Thank you for that. I have put myself in the lottery. Fingers crossed.

Any News so far?
I would like to know if iam in or out 🤣

>191 Ragnaroek: The lottery closed at noon on Friday (BST) and Lyra's Books said winners would be notified within 48 hours, so noon on Sunday (BST). In this case no news is not good news! I haven't heard anything yet.

>192 Pendrainllwyn: Rich sent an email last night, saying he will start emailing winners this morning (Sunday). They will then have 48 hours to confirm the purchase, and all un-bought copies go into a second lottery then. So no news so far isn’t necessarily bad news! Rich also said he will send an email to say when all copies have sold out.

>193 BorisG: Oh, thank you. There's hope yet! I don't have any books from Lyra so it would be nice to come through on the lottery but there are other books I have my eye on so not a problem if not.

>193 BorisG: I got my copy of A Christmas Carol in the second lottery, so it definitely can happen!

>193 BorisG: Got my email today just after 12 noon UK time - so the emails should all have been sent out by now

>196 antinous_in_london: that you won in the lottery?

>197 Ragnaroek: Yes. Rich said that emails would only be sent out to those who had been successful. Received mine 6 hours ago so assume they would all be sent out by now. When you respond to the email to confirm, you’ll then be sent a payment link

Noooooo 🤯
If anyone wanna sell Coraline... just contact me 😅

>200 supercell:

It's a system that really enables scalpers, makes people buy to keep their rights when they actually aren't that interested in a book, and keeps people who are interested in the books for themselves from buying them. A complete mess really. I hope Lyra's won't do any more Gaiman. I can do without their other titles, but missing out on another Gaiman because of their system with rights and lotteries would be really frustrating. I'm already deeply disappointed in not being able to buy a numbered Coraline (though I was lucky to get a standard edition during the sale), which I would have loved to have and which was promptly offered for 3000$ on ebay by some scalper right after the sale. As it is, the purchase buttons for the numbered Stardust weren't present when I bought that and got the standard edition, and of course there was also no mention that obtaining one of those numbered copies would be pretty much the only way to be able to buy future titles without handing over thousands to some scalper. I'm sure Lyra's will stick with this rights and lottery mess - after the website issues during both sales it's certainly less stressful for them. But they really exclude a lot of people who would appreciate their titles as such, not for the rights or re-sale value, as a result.

>201 SF-72: I’m sorry but your opinion sounds like sour grapes to me. Lyra has both rights holders and an open lottery which sounds pretty fair to me. Arete on the other hand has the alternative first come first serve approach. This has downsides for the sale window if the publisher has a worldwide audience. Also it depends upon one’s typing speed. I left the gym early to try to buy a book from Arete, hit go at exactly the opening window which was fast enough to get me into the output queue but by the time I filled out all the forms and payment information my copy had been sold out from under me to a faster typist. C’est la vie, sometimes you can purchase an item in high demand and sometimes you can’t. I suppose another alternative would be to auction all of the copies off to the highest bidders in which case the less affluent would rightfully be upset. There is no system that will satisfy everyone and those that aren’t able to purchase what they covet may be upset. I think Lyra is trying very hard to set up a useable and fair distribution system and I applaud them for their effort.

>200 supercell:
If you are not a right holder I think it will be near impossible to get all Lyras titles.
(Beside you are infinite rich)

All the systems aren't fair. It doesn't matter if its rights or anything else.
You have a slow Internet connection, are at work or somewhere else when the books get released ... What is the definition of fair . Luck is a big factor here.

>202 kdweber: I agree that every system has its faults. My preference is lotteries, however I do think Lyra’s has handled this badly. I tried to get the lettered or numbered version and was unsuccessful with both, however those who were successful could automatically buy a standard makes no sense, why is it a good thing for the books to be in fewer hands?

One thing I would like for all lottery entries is the declaration of your card details when submitting an entry. It makes it much more difficult to ask friends or family to submit an entry if they risked being billed before you could transfer money to them. I’m not sure why they don’t do this.

>204 DMulvee:
What does it matter ? Cant you just let the family member sent you the mail and pay through it ?

I dont wanna give my card details if I dont even know if I have won ...

>205 Ragnaroek: Individuals are only allowed one entry, so including card details is a way to ensure that each card has only one entry, and that the card holder matches the entry on the form. This reduces the chances that someone can enter many times and improve their odds. Currently I could create 50 different gmail accounts enter different names on these, (friends and family I know), then if three were successful only responds with my card details on one and the other two don’t acknowledge the email. I end up with the book this way having boosted my chances

>200 supercell: Where does it say the master plan is to have standard copies sell by lottery? These copies that recently went by lottery were a small number that were left over due to launch issues and/or cancellations of multiple orders.

>201 SF-72: Would you say a lottery is more of a mess than potential website issues? It seems due to the demand, it’s the best of the not so great options they have.

>201 SF-72:

Why do you think Rich Tong's Rights system is any different than the subscription systems offered to collectors by the Arion Press, the Barbarian Press, the Foolscap Press, the Nawakum Press, etc. In both instances, a copy of each forthcoming edition is reserved and set aside for both the Lyra Books rights holders and the Arion/Barbarian/Foolscap, etc., private press subscribers, shrinking the number of copies available for everyone else. Additionally, only 1/2 of the forthcoming Numbered Editions (150 copies) for both the Lyra's Classic and Lyra's Press have rights associated with them, with the other 150 copies available to the general public.

Sounds quite fair and balanced to me. Most important, it frees Rich Tong from the extreme stress he experienced and the chaos that had been associated with having everyone attempting to purchase the Numbered editions simultaneously, with website and subscription failures. Like it or not, Rich Tong is not going to change the current system of 1/2 rights holders and 1/2 general public copies for the Numbered Editions.

The only point I’m not sure about in the way Rich has set this up is the automatic offer of a standard copy to every numbered-copy buyer. As >204 DMulvee: said, it reduces the already limited supply even further...

I unfortunately did not win the lottery and was really hoping to get my hands on this beautiful book. If anyone ends up willing to part with a standard edition copy, do reach out! Otherwise, congrats to those who won and enjoy what I'm sure will be a brilliant production!

>211 CapybaraMan:
It's not over yet I think. There is a small chance left. I didnt received an email so far that it is completely sold out.

It's not sour grapes on my part, but an honest frustration that too many of the books don't really go to people who will appreciate them for what they are, but to people who just want to keep purchase rights for titles they actually want, or who just want to re-sell them at a huge profit.

And yes, there is no system that is completely fair when books are so limited that demand exceeds supply. But a system that pushes people into buying something they don't want so they can keep their rights and enables scalpers, too, is the worst option one can come up with in my book, whether I was lucky enough to get a copy or not. And while a mad rush at a website is no fun and really stressful,* it's at least more fair than reserving a large number of books to previous buyers (who may or may not want this actual title) as described above and leaving the rest up to a lottery. It's a lot easier to cheat on those than on trying to buy a copy within a limited time frame. I only ever entered with one entry, but it is possible to activate a lot of people one knows by asking them for their help, in addition to other ways of cheating that are more intricate. It does make sense to me to give rights to series, like Subterranean Press does, for example, but to every single book? No.

As for less stress for Lyra's: Certainly, since neither time the website and payment options functioned properly. That's hardly an issue with a sale as such. Other shops do get their websites functional under pressure, just think of Suntup.

I know I won't change this system, but feeling that people who would cherish an individual book are very likely to lose out is something I intensely dislike, whether it affects my personally or not. With Gaiman, it unfortunately does. But I have a problem with seeing someone sell their numbered edition on Ebay within days of pre-ordering it from Lyra's at 6 times the price, or someone else stating that they're not interested in the book beyond the rights attached, but bought it and will keep it for its look on the shelf anyway. I would dislike this if I had got a copy, too. That's not what making and selling (or buying) beautiful books should be about.

I understand that other people don't see it this way and think a lottery is somehow fair (it definitely isn't) and that's fine. But don't twist what I write into a personal frustration because I didn't get this book. I find it just as ugly with books I don't want, quite a few Suntup titles that were only available through rights and a lottery come to mind.

*(I recently lost out on another limited edition like that, and I don't find it nearly as frustrating and unfair. Someone else was faster, good for them.)

>213 SF-72: Scalpers are going to scalp. Any sales system that sells a limited product below market demand will attract these individuals. If there is a difference in the sale price and market price someone will inevitably arbitrage.

>213 SF-72: I don't find it nearly as frustrating and unfair. Someone else was faster, good for them.

That's not the full picture though, is it? I lost out on the Roman edition of Arete's Word's of Fire, not because I was too slow but because my bank inserted a security check into the process. It didn't matter how fast I was, I would always have been slower to complete the order than those without the check. And what about people in the wrong time zones, or those who have other commitments when orders open? No system is completely fair.

As for the Lyra's system, the only real issue is that demand is significantly higher than supply. I remember exactly the same debate happening with Suntup a couple of years ago (and there the rights are for ALL the numbered books). After demand dropped it seems no longer much of an issue. This will probably be the last Lyra's Gaiman for a while; it'll be interesting to see what happens with the non Gaiman titles. We'll then see how much of the demand has come from Gaiman fans and how much is from fans of what Lyra's themselves are doing. I'm in the latter camp, though I don't mind Gaiman at all.

>216 Levin40:
True words !! I have 100% the same opinion. Next classic title should be Wizard of Oz if iam informed correctly.

>213 SF-72: You've taken the time to explain really well how you feel, and I don’t think anyone can argue with the points you’ve made.

The only question is how many people really buy the books to just flip them, and we’ll never know the answer to that question. It’s likely much, much less than the Suntup folks, and the reason is Lyra produces a lot fewer books, and it’s easier to afford buying and keeping them.

In the past four years they’ve made about four books? Suntups made about 40.

I’d say Lyra’s customers probably have the highest rate of keepers compared to anyone else. Plus not all their books are like Stardust - you can get Dorian and Christmas Carol for pretty much list. And Coraline will definitely go at a premium, but again, not Stardust levels.

>213 SF-72: Just be patient. There will be the inevitable copies that show up, quite possibly for less than the original price. Just look at dorian and a christmas carol. Both have had copies offered at below cost i believe by now.

When does Coraline ship ?

I got my lottery-win-mail today.
It's not too late. If anyone is still waiting.

>221 Libri_mea_vita_sunt: That's great. No such luck here yet.

Got an mail from Richard Tong.
So the standard editions are sold out now and all the books (lettered, numbered & standard) will shipped in the next weeks.

Very great news indeed.

>223 Libri_mea_vita_sunt: I think there are two different viewpoints here! Not sure those who were unlucky in the lottery (like myself!) needed an email to say shipping was happening soon. I think this only needed to be sent to those who were successful in acquiring a copy!

>224 DMulvee:
You know now that the books are sold out and you went unlucky.
You got news about the Arete Edition aswell.
Isnt that an win-win ?

>225 Libri_mea_vita_sunt: I didn’t go for the standard copy. I was in the lottery for the numbered and lettered and was unlucky there and had already been informed of this. So the information about the standard being sold out or the shipping aren’t of interest to me

>226 DMulvee:
I just wanted to cheer you up.
I understand you.
The numbered Edition would have been amazing, but the secondary market prices are not from this World.

IIRC, the Numbered Edition of Coraline did not sell out instantly and there was a window of opportunity to order and reserve a copy, unlike the Numbered Edition of Stardust. Is this incorrect?

>228 dlphcoracl: >229 supercell: no the first iteration of standard edition sales (after rights) was by mad dash. Only the second iteration was by lottery (I successfully placed an order during the first iteration without rights).

>231 supercell: you're right; I misread. That's what I get for responding quickly.

My copy arrived today, and it's stunning. Really looking forward to reading this.

>233 ambyrglow: Got my copy too and it's absolutely gorgeous, with wonderful attention to detail. Everyone involved clearly firing on all cylinders: designer, artist, printer, marbler and, of course, binder! Congratulations to all. Lyra's remains the only publisher for which I'm planning on purchasing all they release (below lettered at least) - which makes it a good thing they only put out a couple of titles a year! :-)

I will get mine tomorrow.
You have an standard or numbered edition ?

>235 Libri_mea_vita_sunt: Both. Though 'standard' is definitely selling that one short - it's a work of art.

>237 supercell: I got a UPS delivery today that left the US on the evening of the 14th & was delivered in the UK 9am today - the 16th, so at 1.5 days UPS definitely can be an express service.

Mine came FedEx; it was picked up in the UK at 7 p.m. on Tuesday and delivered to me in the US at 8 p.m. on Wednesday. I wasn't expecting quite that level of speed and was startled when the delivery man knocked on my door after dinner!

>237 supercell: I do not know why they shipped a mix of FedEx and UPS. UPS is awful for international delivery.

>240 NathanOv: Mine came via DHL.
Living in the Netherlands.

I dont think they decided the shipping courier themselves? Did they ?
They used an service, (APL overnight ? ,doing this for them. I could be wrong, but otherwise it wouldn't make any sense at all. You would have bring the parcels to three different stores .(DHL, UPS, FedEx...)

There are an numbered and standard copy of Coraline on ebay right now

marceloanciano add me to the ranks of ecstatic customers. I love your design- so clean, elegant, and fitting. Every time I see a Lyra's or Arete book in person for the first time, it exceeds my expectations.

This year marks the 400th Anniversary of Shakespeare's First Folio... I was hoping that Lyra's Classic would take one of his plays and give it the royal treatment! I was a bit underwhelmed by the Folio Society's LE --
https://www.foliosociety.com/usa/the-complete-plays.html
and maybe a bit surprised we didn't get some fine press Shakespeare! Maybe in 2024 :)

>245 astropi: That's a fantastic suggestion!

>246 SDB2012:

"That's a fantastic suggestion!"

Yes and no.

The major plays have already been issued several times in excellent private press editions, specifically: Hamlet, King Lear, Macbeth, Romeo and Juliet, the Tempest, and A Midsummer Night's Dream. If Lyra's Books were to do a Shakespeare edition, it would ideally be one that is poorly represented or not represented at all in private press format. Othello would be my pick.

I would snatch up anything by the bard that rich decides to bind.

>247 dlphcoracl: which editions of Hamlet would you suggest me to check out? Are they available?

>249 wooter:

There are many excellent private press editions of Hamlet. The ones I recommend, in approximate order of cost starting from least expensive, are:

1. Folio Society: The Letterpress Hamlet (2007)
2. Hamlet, Alberto Tallone Editore (1978)
3. Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Roycrofters (1902)
4. Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Dr. Julius Schröder (Meisterwerke der Weltliteratur Series) - 1920
5. The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Delfino Edizione D'Art, (1985)
6. The Tragedie of Hamlet, Prince of Denmarke, Cranach Presse, 1930.

Note that I have omitted the LEC edition illustrated by Eric Gill, which is not to my taste. FWIW, I have a copy of No.4 - the Hamlet edition published during the Weimar Republic years with original etchings by Sepp Frank in a distinctive German Expressionist style. I wrote a detailed article with photos on the Books and Vines website over a decade ago (see link). The photos can be enlarged by left-clicking on them once, and then again (twice) to give a macro view of the letterpress printing and the illustrations.

https://booksandvines.com/2011/11/02/hamlet-by-william-shakespeare-1920-edition-...

With regard to availability, the Folio Society Letterpress edition is widely available. Nos. 2 - 4 are extremely rare and Nos. 5 and 6 are prohibitively expensive.

>247 dlphcoracl:
I couldn’t find a fine press edition of Macbeth that would match Dr Julius Schröder‘s Hamlet or van Vliet‘s King Lear.
I am only aware of the Folio Letterpress and LEC Editions. Suggestions would be much appreciated!

There are enough Shakespeare editions on the market. We don't need more to be honest .

>251 SebRinelli:

Surprisingly, there are very few fine press editions of Macbeth in the English language when compared to Hamlet, the Tempest and King Lear. The one I own is a livre d'artiste edition from Ronald King and his Circle Press in 1970 and it is stunning. It is a giant folio-sized edition measuring 53.5 x 39 mm and the pages are French style (loose pages). Ronald King's illustrations are abstract (typical for him) - ten full page silkscreen designs in several colors which represent characters in the play. The entire text of the play is printed letterpress in 14 pt. Plantin type. It was the first book in which King learned to set type and he printed it for himself, an edition limited to only 150 signed copies. There are several fine press editions in the French language, however.

>243 Libri_mea_vita_sunt:

Only if you're willing to hand over 2000$ to someone who only bought the numbered edition to sell it: "Brand new, opened for pictures and then placed back into original packaging". I don't buy from people like that on principle.

>254 SF-72: true, I hate that too... 😔

>250 dlphcoracl: Thank you. Appreciate the info!

>254 SF-72: Agreed. Never really understand people who put books up for sale immediately after receiving them. Maybe time to get a new hobby. (and yeah, I realise I'm opening a can of worms of the 'it's their property, they can do what they like with it...plus capitalism...blah blah blah' variety)

>244 SDB2012: Thank you so much! Coraline, well, especially the standard edition, really has paved the way for other books I'm doing, both Oz and The Alchemist is really pushing the envelope with what we can do with different printing techniques. I am so pleased that you like the design, means that the reading experience, I hope, is enhanced.

>257 Levin40:
Alot of the books they will never sale or it takes years to do so...
Atleast not for an huge profit.

>247 dlphcoracl: The major plays have already been issued several times in excellent private press editions...

Yes, and many are out of the price range of most any middle-class earner. Also, who's to say Lyra can't do it "better"? Of course better is subjective, but they can certainly put their spin on it. Also, if you don't like it, you don't have to purchase it :)

Been spending some more time with Coraline and have been noticing some really cool details. Like how the red thread begins with a frayed end on the very first illustration, runs through every illustration in the book until the appropriate last one near then end, where there is another frayed end, to then be followed by the last few illustrations, which are the only ones thread-free. Like the letterpress printed borders and threads of the colour illustrations in the Standard Edition (seriously, they could have saved themselves a lot of bother by just printing the borders offset too, but instead took the harder and more impressive route). Like Rich's signature sneaking in on the very last page. Just a wonderful production all round.

>261 Levin40: So cool you noticed the letterpress frames around the printed plates in the 'standard' edition. Was most pleased with the result, even though that was the very process that took many months to achieve and set us back in terms of delivery, I wanted it to work like a three dimension frame and, you are right, it would have been much simpler to have printed those frames litho too but litho uses a different red . it has become my favourite version of Coraline. And so pleased you also noticed those little details with the thread!

>262 marceloanciano: Thanks Marcelo. Really appreciate all the efforts you made on this one.

>262 marceloanciano:

Questions for Marcelo:

1. Is Paulo Coelho's 'The Alchemist' still scheduled to be the 3rd book in Rich Tong's Lyra's Books series?

2. If so, has the illustrator for it been decided upon?

>264 dlphcoracl: The Alchemist maybe the next for Lyra's Books, we have a slim story that we have been working on but we have been a bit thrown by the reception of Benjamin Button and may shelve that for a while. I've been working on the Alchemist for nearly a year now with Gary Gianni, I want to push what we learnt from the printing of Coraline to use that for The Alchemist, so it is another quite complex, but hope a quicker, print job. We still have a long way to go before that is finally ready to go but Gary's art is amazing. We're doing Oz soon and Conan possibly. Also we have to do Lud and Brave New World....

>265 marceloanciano:

By 'thrown' do you mean negatively surprised? I must say that I was surprised at how few copies have sold so far when I just looked.

>266 SF-72: yes, we were planning something very similar

>267 marceloanciano: “Similar” just in length, or in author / artist as well?

It seems like Benjamin Button was the victim of several different unfortunate timing issues like Thornwillow’s edition, the slew of recent Dave McKean works, and a very crowded release window, while also having some divisive elements that were very particular to this work such as the cover and general art style. It took some big swings at a time when collectors had a lot of other options to choose between.

I would be surprised if the length were a big factor, and would personally love to see more slim volumes which surely wouldn’t have all of the above complications working against them.

I continue to be more excited by Lud-in-the-Mist than by any other upcoming fine press publication, and feel obliged to say so every time it's mentioned just in case perceived lack of enthusiasm results in it falling off the publication list.

>268 NathanOv: similar in length, and doing a slim book where the pricing means that it is perceived as expensive. I'm sure we will do it, just a question of when. I really loved what Rich did with the covers on Benjamin, must say.

>269 ambyrglow: Thanks! The awareness of Lud is something which I hope will build, either way, it is happening, after all, 40 plates can't not be seen!

>271 marceloanciano:

Both a friend and I are really looking forward to Lud in the Mist and plan to buy it. The illustrations you've shown so far look beautiful, and I've heard a lot of positive things about the book as such.

>268 NathanOv:

I agree about what you wrote, including the art style. McKean can do very different things, some of it quite beautiful, and what I've seen so far wasn't as aesthetically pleasing as I'd hoped for when I heard he would be illustrating this story. I was still willing to risk it and hope for the best, since so far all three of Areté's books I got have been even better in person than I'd thought when I'd seen pictures online. They're real works of art. But yes, combined with the pricing, I did have to think about it, which wasn't the case at all with previous releases.

I ordered a numbered Benjamin Button. I had been looking forward to this but when I saw the shipping it did give me pause for thought. I don’t really understand why your shipping is so much higher than some other publishers (for example Folio Society next day delivery for their limited edition Moonstone was £9.99 recently). For a book with the dimensions listed I assume that the postage (tracked and insured) would be about £10 (I accept that the lettered might need a more expensive cost because of the higher insurance).
Of course you need to add packaging on top of this (both labour and materials), but I would prefer to see a book listed at £415 with £10 P&P, rather than a book listed at £395 with £28 P&P (even though the former is £2 more overall).

ETA: Sorry the shipping was £27 not £28

>273 DMulvee: hmmm, that doesn't sound right. I'll check with Ludlow's next week, it was just supposed to be the post alone, no packing costs.

Random thoughts regarding Lyra's Books and Areté Editions.......

1. Received my copy (Numbered Edition) of Coraline last week via UPS. The packing system was exemplary with the book surrounded by thick protective foam and slabs. No chance of this book arriving damaged. The Numbered Edition of Coraline compares quite favorably to Stardust. I did not think I would like Rovina Cai's illustrations as much as I did with Charles Vess' for Stardust but they work exceptionally well, more subtle and muted (in a positive way) than I thought they would be. The Red Thread binding is as inventive and attractive as the sprinkled gold dust binding for Stardust.

2. The muted reception for Areté Editions 'The Curious Case of Benjamin Button' has surprised me. It is the sort of quirky, offbeat novel - from a well-known author, no less - that I thought would have a niche audience of collectors.

3. The Lyra's Books and Areté Editions publications reinforce how critical the choice of artist/illustrator is. As highly regarded as he is, I did not connect with Gregory Manchess' work for The Picture of Dorian Gray whereas Charles Vess and Rovina Cai seemed perfect.

4. Add my name to the list of folks eagerly awaiting Lud in the Mist.

5. I am particularly interested in seeing what Areté Editions does with Brave New World. Similar to 1984, this is a visionary and prescient novel that has become more relevant in the 21st century and it is poorly represented in the fine & private press world. Only a mediocre LEC edition is available. Has the artist / illustrator for Brave New World been decided upon??

>275 dlphcoracl: The muted reception for Areté Editions 'The Curious Case of Benjamin Button' has surprised me...The Lyra's Books and Areté Editions publications reinforce how critical the choice of artist/illustrator is.

And there you have it. The reason, or I should say one large reason Button has not sold well is the art. Granted, art is in the eye of the beholder, but when you're asking some $500 for a short story, there better be something spectacular about it! And I really don't think those illustrations did it for most. Also granted I have not done any serious polling about this, but based on what I've heard from other collector's, the art and style did not justify the price.



I think Gregory Manchess' work for The Picture of Dorian Gray, well, it was picture perfect (I regret nothing :)
It was also over 300 pages and cost was about $700. I feel that Button would have done very well at around the $200 range. I know that may be difficult in today's climate, but then again, Suntup manages to publish full novels letterpress with original illustrations for around that price. Anyway, please don't misconstrue my comments. I want nothing but the best for Areté and I look forward to their forthcoming publications.

>271 marceloanciano: Re Lyra's classics: any hints to long range plans beyond oz? Personally I have a strong preference for the true classics in the vein of dickens, or wilde, etc. much less excited about oz though i'm sure your version will be superb.

My biggest no for this edition were the illustrations. I dont like this sketches style and since 1/3 of the book are illustrations, I needed to pass.

How did Frozen Hell sold so far compared to Benjamin B. ?

>276 astropi: The number of volumes printed has a huge impact on the price. Surely you've been around long enough to understand this? Suntup's most recent book had four times as many copies as this one. His books also have a paltry 5-7 illustrations each.

Come on. You're doing quite a disservice, comparing apples to oranges, and making such careless remarks.

Having said that, I'd be happy to have the sperms taken off the cover.

>279 What_What: True, however it is possible to compare - more or less - with Suntup's The Yellow Wallpaper. Like Benjamin Button it's a short story with only two editions, though admittedly had fewer illustrations (though they are very well done) and more copies for the numbered. The price on that one was $325 and I feel that BB would have done quite well in $300-$400 range. An elephant in the room here is of course the rights system. While I understand that it's not for every publisher and I'm sure Arete have good reasons for not adopting it, from a purely sales perspective I don't doubt that BB would have sold better under such a system.

>277 wooter: A while back Rich mentioned The Lost World as one future title.

I would have bought the Benjamin Button for rights to be honest, just to make sure I get Conan, Lud and Brave New World. Atleast the latter will sell out fast, if not immediately, I would guess.

I like rights, because I can relax and dont have to be the fastest, tipping my information on my PC...

>280 Levin40: Ah, Lost World, thats right. not a title i'm excited about but i'm sure it will be done well.

The Lost World by Arthur Conan Doyle I assume ?

>273 DMulvee:
>274 marceloanciano:

Same here. It really needn't cost 67 Pounds to ship such a small book from the UK to Germany.

>284 SF-72:
Agree. The shipping fee is just ridiculous.

I pay 70 $ for Suntup USA to Germany

But I payed 55£ for Coraline aswell.

Wouldn't be an reason to not buy an 400£ book if it arrives safe and sound.

>287 BookMercenary: yeah, seems a bit silly to quibble over a shipping fee on a book that costs hundreds of pounds.

If the shipping fee for Coraline also covered packaging, I have to say I consider it money well-spent; that was a book that was _not_ going to pick up a single ding or dent along the way, given the sheer amount of foam cocooning it.

>280 Levin40: "True, however it is possible to compare - more or less - with Suntup's The Yellow Wallpaper....The price on that one was $325 and I feel that BB would have done quite well in $300-$400 range."

Hm, not sure that's quite the case. Not only are the prices not that far off, but the binding plays a huge part in perceived value, and I think Suntup's average collector struggled with the less substantial looking book in a "modest" binding for The Yellow Wallpaper.

I am also not sure a rights system makes any difference without regular fast sellouts. A subscriber system and the opportunity to match numbers might draw a few more "completists," but that's all I could see.

>289 ambyrglow:
I never payed extra money for the actual "package". I think the cost's are already included in the Book or shipping price.

I don't know the shipping of Arete Editions, since Frozen Hell will be my first book from them, but if they package near as good as Richard Tong / Lyras did, the price is totally fine for me.
A sign on the door is needed aswell I think.

They could ship the book with Evri for 1/4 of the money...
But be aware...
1. You get a message that the package couldn't be delivered directly to you, because nobody was at home (doesn't matter if you were, it's Evri..)
2. The package was thrown over youre fence or is lying on some wet floor in youre garage.
3. You are the lucky one, because you saved alot of shipping money.
4. Sadly youre book smells of mildew now and the Slipcase is torn to pieces.

>291 BookMercenary:

Evri are doing a better job where I live than UPS, FedEx etc. We had those discussions before, and it really seems to depend on where you are.

And yes, I appreciate that the books are well protected, but shipping from Ludlow's is still a lot more expensive than from anyone else in the UK I buy from, and that includes sellers that package their books well, too.

>292 SF-72:
Yeah, that was maybe a little naive from me. Evri/ Hermes are the worst package deliverer out there, where I live.
It depends where you are living.

There is always someone cheaper.
For me it depends on 2 factors. I take Suntup as an example this time.
I never again would buy an AE from Suntup, because most of the time, half the cost of the book adds up as shipping. I pay 150$ for the book plus 70$ for shipping. A little exaggerated... but the shipping is nearly as much, as the book is worth.
If I buy an numbered edition I don't really care anymore, because the book itself is an huge investment 500$ to 70$ shipping. (The prices are only meant as examples. Shipping is sometimes even more expensive, though)

>291 BookMercenary: Let’s compare apples with apples. If other fine book publishers can post books for 1/3 - 1/2 of the cost then it is fair to ask questions. My first Arête book (case of death and honey) went missing for a few weeks as the delivery company messed up and didn’t inform anyone. I chased up Arete who gave me details, and then chased up the delivery company which is the only reason I ended up with it.

>294 DMulvee: It sounds like you were asked to pay the same for UK delivery as I was for my international shipping for the Standard Coraline.

Maybe these really are the rates they're getting quoted by carriers, but I imagine they'd save themselves some money and be able to offer slightly better rates if they didn't charge flat rate shipping, then send multi-book orders off in 2-3 packages.

>279 What_What: The number of volumes printed has a huge impact on the price. Surely you've been around long enough to understand this?

Yes, to an extent. It also depends on the paper you are getting -- handmade vs all cotton etc. That said, once you reach about 100+ volumes the difference in price goes down tremendously. Surely you've been around long enough to know this?

As >280 Levin40: noted, the Suntup edition of The Yellow Wall-Paper had 340 copies while Button has 200. Clearly, the difference in price, $500 vs $350, is not due to the number of volumes printed. Also, while not in the same league as the Arete edition, the Thornwillow Button is still printed letterpress and beautifully bound. The Patron edition is $165 --



His books also have a paltry 5-7 illustrations each.

I think that's rather insulting saying "paltry 5-7 illustrations". Of course there could be more illustrations, but there easily could be less. To be fair, the illustrations that Suntup uses are specially commissioned and typically full-color plates. AND you have to keep in mind that considering you can get a letterpress edition with all of this for under $200, I see nothing "paltry" about it. The Arete Button has an amazing seventeen prints, which is quite incredible for a 72-page story. It's clearly a true "livres d'artiste". However, at the end of the day even if you had 117 prints, it would not matter if the art just does not agree with the buyer. As I said earlier, if it was around $200-300 I think it would sell much better. All that said, I wish the best for Arete and I truly do hope they sell out and continue to produce wonderful works.

>296 astropi: You asked why can't they produce their books like Suntup does for $200, implying they're about equivalent.

That's comparing a book with 7 illustrations to a book with seventeen, which doesn't make sense, I'm not sure why you continue to dig deeper.

Finally, you say the Thornwillow edition at $165 is not in the same league, so why is it even being brought up?

Look, the point is, Arete is doing what they're doing for the love of the craft. It's either their high prices are because they're incompetent and/or getting very rich off their efforts. Or, you simply don't know what you're talking about.

>297 What_What: That's comparing a book with 7 illustrations to a book with seventeen, which doesn't make sense

How much does it cost for Suntup to commission 7 illustrations? How much did it cost Arete for the 17 illustrations? Do you think all art is a flat fee? You have no idea how much either Arete nor Suntup spend on illustrations.

Finally, you say the Thornwillow edition at $165 is not in the same league, so why is it even being brought up?

Because first of all it's an alternative, and secondly having a fine press alternative devalues the Arete edition. People who want a fine press Button and think the Arete edition is too expensive and/or the illustrations not to their taste, may absolutely opt for the Thornwillow edition.

you simply don't know what you're talking about.

Ah yes, your ad hominem attack. Ho-hum.

>296 astropi: It seems like a more appropriate Thornwillow comparison would be their half-leather version for $885 US (the first Thornwillow tier I'd consider describing as "beautifully bound" in the context of the work Arete does).

>299 jsavoy: Arete’s numbereds are closer to Thornwillow’s full-leather design bindings, though that just highlights the entirely different pricing factors at play here.

I am sure Thornwillow’s Benjamin Button had an influence on Arete’s sales, as anyone on the fence had a satisfying alternative, but I wouldn’t otherwise try to compare the two books.

I have received my gorgeous copy, but am confused about the Caroline crossed out and replaced with Coraline on the title page, and the "helb ns" ? loosely inserted card. I cannot quite believe that the former is a genuine typo.
Can anyone explain?

>301 wcarter: It's a plot point that Coraline is constantly frustrated by everyone she meets mishearing her name as Caroline.

>301 wcarter: Hold the card up to a mirror and read it in the mirror. Presumably a story reference.

>302 ambyrglow: >303 Redshirt:
Thank you both.

>301 wcarter:
Youre answer got already answered, but you could have just read the book. Its very short.
You would have smiled about those little "extras" yourself.

>303 Redshirt:

It is, someone writing on glass and the writing being seen from the other side.

I received my copy yesterday. As nice as everyone else has claimed. I had never read the story before. The misspelled Coraline and mirror image postcard were soon understood. It’s a quick YA read. I enjoyed it and thought the illustrations, both tipped and printed, worked really well with the story. Beautiful binding.