Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - Suntup Editions - 2021

I will get the ball rolling by saying that I am very pleased with the look and details of this offering, particularly the letterpress and the numerous illustrations. I read this book a couple of times as a boy and look forward to revisiting this old friend after several decades. My one gripe (besides the hefty price tag) is with the Golden Ticket lottery. I feel that the book prizes should be for a future Suntup publication instead of a copy of Charlie. But all in all, this looks like a winner to me.

If anyone is interested, a small number of Artist's Editions as well as a "Wonkabundle" are available here: https://darkregions.com/products/charlie-and-the-chocolate-factory-by-roald-dahl...

There were also five Numbered editions available; they sold out in a flash.

>2 PatsChoice: Huh! What's happening here? Do other presses buy the Suntup books to flip them? Or does Suntup sell directly through other presses? Either way, so weird.

>3 grifgon: subterranean Press asked us at Arete if they could buy some of our Fine edition books of The Case of Death and Honey, surprised me too...

>3 grifgon: I think Dark Regions acts as a distributor for small portions of the press runs for certain small presses. I bought my copy of the Amaranthine Press Alice in Wonderland through them, and I think they usually get some copies of the Suntup editions. Subterranean Press also sells Suntup editions sometimes.

>3 grifgon: As >5 jsg1976: mentioned, I assume it's small-scale distribution deals. I don't know why Suntup would do it, though—they have no issue selling out. Must be long-standing contracts from a time when Suntup was operating at a much-reduced capacity.

>6 PatsChoice: it lets them sell out faster and inflate demand - even if they’re technically still available elsewhere. Artificial scarcity seems to be 90% of Suntup’s strategy.

>7 NathanOv: Yeah, I was going to make the same comment. I believe I clicked the Suntup link fairly quickly after the email was sent and there were only 500-odd of the 1250 copies available at that time. So basically there are a lot of copies sold elsewhere.

>7 NathanOv: >8 Levin40: Don't take these numbers as gospel, but I saw on the "Suntup Fans" FB group that 850 out of 1,250 AE copies are available directly through Suntup. That said, they did still sell out in about 6 hours.

Re: "Artificial scarcity seems to be 90% of Suntup’s strategy.": When you can sell "Roman numeral" editions for 15 grand, that seems like a sound strategy, haha. I'm sure some who peddle Livre d'Artiste publications are left scratching their heads. :)

>9 PatsChoice: Pats choice "When you can sell "Roman numeral" editions for 15 grand, that seems like a sound strategy, haha."

Oh, it's definitely working for him - I just don't know if that's a good thing for the book world as a whole. $15k should get you a truly unique, hand-made creation or livre d'artiste on an entirely nother level. This would've made a fine press press numbered edition, and sold for maybe a thousand at a publisher like Thornwillow, with a similar limitation too boot, but is selling for $15k here because they've made such a big thing of the limited quantity and supposed demand for these editions.

quick heads up

1 copy of the artist edition is available on suntups website.

>7 NathanOv:
>8 Levin40:
>9 PatsChoice:
>10 NathanOv:

Can you say: "Tulipomania??"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulip_mania

I honestly do not know who is lusting after the Suntup Press editions and buying them at absurdly inflated prices, but I assure you it is not knowledgeable private press book collectors. For $15K, you can buy the Golden Cockerel Press 'The Four Gospels of the Lord Jesus Christ' with Eric Gill's fabled wood engravings or the Cranach Press 'Tragedie of Hamlet' in the deluxe (and rare) full morocco binding by Otto Dorfner.

Just saying.

>12 dlphcoracl:

"...it is not knowledgeable private press book collectors" - couldn't agree with you more. Absolutely bonkers!

It puzzles me that at this stage of the game that so many people here are still so mystified by Suntup collectors. The simple fact is that they are different collectors who value different things than the folks in this forum do and who have money to spend.

"For $15K, you can buy the Golden cockerel Press 'The Four Gospels of the Lord Jesus Christ' with Eric Gill's fabled wood engravings or the Cranach Press 'Tragedie of Hamlet' in the deluxe (and rare) full morocco binding by Otto Dorfner" And... there's an excellent chance that the Suntup Roman Numeral collectors wouldn't pay $15K, or maybe even $5K, for those things. Different measures of value. You don't value what they value? Fine. It seems they don't value what you do either, or that's where they'd be spending their money instead.

And Suntup is not "fooling" anyone. I can tell no one who has been opining about the supposed "mania" has actually been paying attention to the Suntup collector market for some time (if ever, really), because the Suntup market has already undergone a correction. Few recent editions are selling for much above retail, and only a tiny fraction of the books (low single-digit percentages) wind up on the secondary market in any visible way. So, if you think massive numbers of artist edition copies are being bought by would-be flippers, all the available evidence shows you're just wrong. And yet, still, the new books are selling. At a rapid clip. And for good money.

Personally, I have been fascinated by how good Suntup and his crew are at marketing. They've learned some very high-level lessons from some massive companies (like Apple) who are world-class at building up the value of their products, creating frenzied excitement around their new releases, and building up the rabid loyalty of their customers. Apple surprises and delights its target market. As does Suntup. And that's why they sell so many books.

>14 whytewolf1:
Thanks for expressing my view. I have 6 or 8 of their artist editions because I like horror novels. Compare their pricing to Easton Press, most of whose signed editions are selling new for $100-150, and most of of which aren’t illustrated. Suntup’s prices have been rising it is true, but so are those of other publishers. I have no experience with their numbered or lettered editions, however.

>14 whytewolf1: I have to disagree to a extent. Yes, one aspect of value is just what people are willing to pay.

But with Suntup, the purchase cost has been totally separated from actual cost of materials or production, and the after-market scarcity has been totally contrived, rather than occurring naturally due to time, limitations or other usual factors.

It just results in a bad market for everybody - nobody is benefiting except the publishers and resellers; they just feel like they have something so much more valuable, when it’s just the $185 book (which at another press might have been an $85 book) in a slightly nicer binding.

I find the Numbered edition ($950) to present the best value: Bradel-bound in full two-toned leather and letterpress-printed on Mohawk, and encased in gate-fold clamshell box bound in a nice Japanese cloth and lined with suede. As a comparison, a standard full-leather Thornwillow edition is priced at four digits.

>16 NathanOv: it’s just the $185 book (which at another press might have been an $85 book) in a slightly nicer binding.

To be fair, the three premium editions all feature letterpress while the top two are printed on the nicest of three papers. That said, I agree the overall production isn't worth $15k for the Roman numeral edition. However, I respect Suntup for maximizing their profits while delivering very handsome work (the exteriors, especially).

For $15-25k, I don't think I'd settle for anything short of a one-of-a-kind production from a renowned printer and bookbinder with the absolute best materials used—but more power to those who don't feel the need to set the bar that high. In a vacuum, qualitative valuation is no less valid than any other method when it comes to art and satisfaction.

>17 PatsChoice:
The Roman Numeral, at least from binding and material usage perspective, is one-of-a-kind, bound and hand tooled by Shepherds, Sangorski & Sutcliffe. Probably not worth $15k, but I don't see a newly made book with such specifications would be obtainable below $5k from anywhere.

>10 NathanOv:
Have you read how the Roman Numeral is made? No publisher will sell you a book like that for $1k, the Thornwillow leather bound editions are not even remotely comparable. Suntup is for sure overpricing, but presentation wise these Roman Numeral editions are absolute high end. The only (and imho important) area they are usually lacking is printing and page layout / typesetting, which could be improved.

>18 Raenas: Shepherds bindings are, probably, one of the most expensive binders in the UK, nice work, but, I bet they paid a fortune for those books.

>18 Raenas: yeah, the Roman numeral editions are basically presentation bindings. Different art form than what is usually discussed here (though of course there is some overlap).

(These are way out of my budget, and I almost never collect books for their bindings anyways, so I am clearly not the target customer. I am actually often quite happy to find a nice printing in a damaged or plain binding, because that results in such a discount due to how the market judges books based on covers.)

To see this from another angle, ask yourself who Paul has been more likely, on average, to highlight and credit: the binder or the printer? It is almost always the binder.

>16 NathanOv: the purchase cost has been totally separated from actual cost of materials or production

Oh, as opposed to Four Gospels which cost 6k GBP to produce? I really don't understand what people don't understand. There is a market for Suntup's books, and people value them. You may not agree with that, but guess what? Most people would think it's crazy to spend $1k+ on a book about wood engravings, yet most fine press collectors would disagree. And don't get me started on "this book isn't worth $X". A book is worth whatever anyone is prepared to pay for it. You are not the ultimate source of truth of a book's value, the market decides this.

>21 filox: I didn’t mention the Four Gospels, and I only mentioned production / materials in regards to the original price, not what it sells for after 90 years of rarity.

Clearly I overlooked something with the binding of the Roman Numeral Edition at least elevating it to some extent, but I still stand by my general assessment that Suntup artificially generates the scarcity and price inflation and it’s bad for the market precisely because people are willing to pay that much for the titles when the pricing is (almost) entirely abstract.

>22 NathanOv: Except people aren't really paying the inflated prices anymore? Outside of the books by massively popular authors (McCarthy, Harris, King) the aftermarket prices for most of the titles (artist and numbered, anyhow) have settled at or near retail. Nowadays if you see someone asking well above retail for a numbered edition, it's because they're including rights to future titles. Some artist editions haven't sold out directly from Suntup, even on titles announced months ago.

For the most part the bubble on Suntup has popped and we're seeing prices for most titles come back to more reasonable levels.

>23 donaldmcobb: Exactly. Just look at how often Starship Troopers / Strangers in a Strange Land numbered sets go on sale for at or below original sale price now, yet look at the number of copies of Charlie and The Chocolate Factory already being listed for $1500+. It's a totally artificial market where not even all the initial buyers see the value in the books (or even want the title being offered).

It's not a matter of "not understanding Suntup collectors" and why they pay so much or go so crazy for these - it's that the books just by and large aren't worth what they're being priced at even to Suntup collectors, and the fast sell outs and supposed "scarcity" are totally fabricated, when in reality countless standard copies are going straight to resellers, with an unusually high amount of the limiteds going direct to secondary.

It's a bad market for everyone, including the press, when you have to pay a totally unaffiliated stranger a $500 premium for the privilege of ordering future books from a press, and buyers who actually want the title aren't even able to purchase.

>24 NathanOv: I can't necessarily disagree with you. I've only purchased one numbered edition, Brother, and frankly I was supremely disappointed. That said, it was one of the earlier titles and I suspect Paul was still working out various aspects of the press.

However, I own a few artist editions and feel the price is generally in line with the fuzzy notion of a book's inherent worth, at least for the titles I own. In terms of quality they are somewhere in between what other presses are publishing as numbered and lettered editions and priced accordingly, with the obvious caveat being that they don't come with the author's signature. But I think that's a whole separate discussion, honestly.

>24 NathanOv:

Exactly.

>10 NathanOv: I’m no Kool Aid drinker, but you’re kidding right? Saying the Roman version is only worth about $1,000?

>16 NathanOv: Also, you surely must realize that the retail price of something very rarely has any relation at all to what it costs, but is more a reflection of what the market is willing to bear.

>12 dlphcoracl: I generally like your contributions to the group, as you're clearly knowledgeable and have great taste, but this comment is really ironic, because I'm sure many people wouldn't even spend $500 on the books you describe. You're essentially saying you can't understand why people don't like exactly the same things you do, so something must be wrong with them. There are hordes of people out there who have no interest in the Golden Cockerel Press, or the Barbarian Press, etc.

>24 NathanOv: This reminds me of a few people on the FSD group lamenting how flippers are ruining book collecting because they saw 20 copies of a 750 limitation sold on eBay. Definitely there are people trying to flip the artist edition, but almost 1,200 copies of the book have now been sold (retailers still have some stock). I imagine there are hundreds of people genuinely looking forward to getting their books.

And to be clear, I find the group to be very... odd, let's say. But I'm not going to tell anybody they're wrong for liking the things they do, or how to spend their money.

I have two AE’s I’ve considered (Replay and Blackwater)…somehow they just don’t seem special enough to add to my library. Also find that Suntup collectors focus a lot on resale value, which seems odd and is a deterrent for me.

>27 _WishIReadMore: it seems like you read through just to argue, but I want to make very clear I’m not talking about “flippers,” nor have I made any argument at all about how original sales prices should be closer to production costs.

All I’m saying is the ridiculous market for Suntup right now has been entirely artificially generated (good for Paul I guess?) and does not reflect “value”, quality of the editions (which I’m not critiquing in anyway), or even the true market demand.

>27 _WishIReadMore: What's wrong with >12 dlphcoracl: dlphcoracl saying that knowledgeable private press book collectors wouldn't buy absurdly overpriced Suntup's Roman Numeral editions? That's common sense!

"I'm sure many people wouldn't even spend $500 on the books you describe".

Many? Should we have a poll? I bet a lot of people in this group would choose those iconic books over Suntup's. I mean knowledgeable collectors, of course.

>30 Lukas1990:

I honestly do not know who is lusting after the Suntup Press editions and buying them at absurdly inflated prices, but I assure you it is not knowledgeable private press book collectors.

I helped provide the answer as to who is buying them. People with different taste in things, that's who. Why is this so perplexing? >14 whytewolf1: Also tried to explain this concept.

How about we all just relax and stop categorizing people as wrong, ignorant or gullible for having different tastes in things? All you're doing is alienating this group and making it very hard to spread the joy of fine press books, which I assume is one of the main goals here.

>30 Lukas1990: There are less than 600 people in this group and a small percentage of that would respond to your hypothetical poll. That's hardly a representative sample. It's also telling that you preemptively limit it to this group, where you know you're surrounded by (active) members that largely share your opinion. Go hit up some of the FB groups and run that poll, see what the results are.

Let people enjoy collecting whatever they want to collect. If that's a copy of Moby Dick bound in the finest white whale leather with scrimshaw hardware, cool. If it's a Roman numeral Suntup title, also cool.

>32 donaldmcobb: Just read this sentence: "I'm sure many people wouldn't even spend $500 on the books you describe".

Does it sound OK and don't you like to criticise it?

>33 the_bb: "I love books first and I love fine press books second. The fact that books are selling at whatever price to people of different tastes should be celebrated. Mean spirited comments about the way people choose to spend their own hard-earned money are distasteful."

Truer words are seldom spoken.

>34 Lukas1990: It doesn't bother me? I feel it's badly worded, but essentially correct - in my experience, collectors aren't going to buy things that fall outside of their interests, even for greatly reduced prices. Yes, a book that normally costs thousands of dollars for $500 is a hell of a deal, but if it isn't something that fits my collecting goals, the only reason I'd considering buying it is to flip.

I feel like a lot of the discussion here about Suntup is just people talking past each other. Naysayers keep bringing up some deleterious effect Suntup's pricing is having on the fine book market and strangely keep referencing the ultra high end Roman numeral editions, which misses the forest for the trees. Meanwhile the defenders keep pointing out that prices on the secondary market for artist and numbered editions have come down in most cases, which while true, doesn't really respond to the previous point.

There is absolutely a bubble in the speculative fiction limited edition market, but Suntup's prices for their artist and numbered editions are a symptom, not the cause; you see largely the same thing going on with presses like Centipede and Subterranean. Lettered and Roman numerals are perhaps a different matter, but are such a niche market that I don't think they factor in to the Suntup defenders' arguments, nor do I think they accurately reflect anything about the market in general.

It all boils down to this: "One man's treasure is another man's junk."

We all have different tastes, and while I may not understand what drives someone to spend any amount of money on some things, I realize that they are equally baffled at my choices.

In my experience, the "Genre Press" (e.g. Suntup, Subterranean, Centipede) collectors and the "Fine/Private Press" (e.g. Arion, Barbarian, Greenboathouse) collectors don't overlap much.

It's like Pokémon card collectors and Baseball card collectors. It would be a mistake to think they have much in common, just because they both collect cards.

"Why spend $15,000 on a Japanese first printing Pikachu when you can buy a '54 Hank Aaron?"

The biggest Suntup collection I saw in person was on shelves which also proudly displayed props from the Lord of the Rings films and a life size Bart Simpson. The biggest Tallone collection I saw in person was on shelves which opened via a secret door onto a dining room with a Matisse on the wall.

Why would you spend $500,000 on a Matisse? Why would you spend $500,000 on Gandalf's staff?

My hat's off to all those who appreciate both. Their lives are richer for it!

>38 grifgon: "In my experience, the "Genre Press" (e.g. Suntup, Subterranean, Centipede) collectors and the "Fine/Private Press" (e.g. Arion, Barbarian, Greenboathouse) collectors don't overlap much."

I think this nails it, honestly.

>38 grifgon: "In my experience, the "Genre Press" (e.g. Suntup, Subterranean, Centipede) collectors and the "Fine/Private Press" (e.g. Arion, Barbarian, Greenboathouse) collectors don't overlap much."

Hmmm: 13 Suntup titles (all numbered), 29 Subterranean, 68 Centipede
Yet: 466 LEC, 11 Thornwillow, 7 Pennyroyal, 7 Foolscap, 6 No Reply, 26 Arion, 30 Allen Press, Gehenna, Barbarian, Pagana, Whittington, Old Stile, Tallone etc.
plus golden age titles from Gwasg Gregynog, Golden Cockerel, Kelmscott, Doves, and Roycroft

Looks like overlap to me, sometimes people have eclectic interests.

>40 kdweber: Like I said, hat's off!

>38 grifgon: "Why spend $15,000 on a Japanese first printing Pikachu when you can buy a '54 Hank Aaron?"

An excellent comparison!

>38 grifgon: Yup. That's another way of putting it.

Well, I had the chance to borrow the roman numeral state to review on my blog/YouTube channel.

https://youtu.be/o3Mq-GLL8QU

https://ubiquitousbooks.wordpress.com/2024/04/13/charlie-and-the-chocolate-facto...

I'm with >14 whytewolf1: and >38 grifgon: that we shouldn't judge those for whom this kind of book is the Holy Grail. Spending $15k on a Golden Cockerel or Ashendene Press book is not obviously any less bonkers than buying a modern fine press edition of your favourite book. De gustibus non est disputandum.

>44 ubiquitousuk: Great review and photos, as always. And, yeah, it's a good idea not to put any coffee on the coffee-table next to the book!

Still, I would choose Golden Cockerel's Four Gospels or Cranach's Hamlet over this Suntup book. If you want a more recent example, I would choose Barbarian Pericles. An offset reprint of illustrations that were already used in previous editions just don't do for me. It would be interesting to see Suntup commision a modern illustrator to create something really inovative and never seen before. Maybe that is still to come. I'm sure he's able to do it.

>44 ubiquitousuk: Wow. That's gorgeous. Must have been fun designing.