Opinions sought on The Bacchae, Allen Press, 1972
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1SebRinelli
Dear Fine Press connoisseurs,
The Bacchae is one of the Greek Plays I admire the most. So far, I’ve only found the Allen Press’ fine press treatment. What’s the your opinion on
a. the presswork and design,
b. the illustrations, and
c. the translation used?
I have a few Allen Press books and find that their œuvre is not beyond any critique as some reviews suggest. Some of their books are examples of amazing craftsmanship and beauty, some others are not to my taste or can be critiqued for i.e. poor typesetting, misspellings, et cetera.
Perhaps, you can also hint to alternatives in English, German, French, or Italian. Unfortunately, I can’t understand the original Ancient Greek.
Thank you
The Bacchae is one of the Greek Plays I admire the most. So far, I’ve only found the Allen Press’ fine press treatment. What’s the your opinion on
a. the presswork and design,
b. the illustrations, and
c. the translation used?
I have a few Allen Press books and find that their œuvre is not beyond any critique as some reviews suggest. Some of their books are examples of amazing craftsmanship and beauty, some others are not to my taste or can be critiqued for i.e. poor typesetting, misspellings, et cetera.
Perhaps, you can also hint to alternatives in English, German, French, or Italian. Unfortunately, I can’t understand the original Ancient Greek.
Thank you
2NYCFaddict
The 1967 LEC is probably much, much more affordable.
3kermaier
>1 SebRinelli:
It’s a gorgeous edition, as an example of the book arts, but if you’re primarily interested in reading it, I would find the Unciala typeface maddening.
It’s a gorgeous edition, as an example of the book arts, but if you’re primarily interested in reading it, I would find the Unciala typeface maddening.
4MobyRichard
>1 SebRinelli:
No idea, but I have 5 Allen Press books and the presswork and paper in all these is superb. To the point where I can even ignore the silly "illustrations" for 'The Beast in the Jungle.'
No idea, but I have 5 Allen Press books and the presswork and paper in all these is superb. To the point where I can even ignore the silly "illustrations" for 'The Beast in the Jungle.'
5SebRinelli
>2 NYCFaddict: Thank you. If you mean ‘Three Plays‘, I got that one. Very nice indeed, especially for the price you can obtain it for. However, for a number of few books, I am looking for the best edition available.
>3 kermaier: Thank you. I agree with you. It's definitely not my favourite type for reading. For a play it’s ok though, in my opinion. Generous spacing and the length of the text helps.
>4 MobyRichard:: I can only speak about the Allen Press books I have. In some books it is superb (i.e Pushkin Four Stories, Jealousy) and I consider them highlights of my collection. Others suffer from spacing mistakes (The Sire de Malétroit’s Door), uneven inking and a considerable number of spelling mistakes (Rappaccini’s Daughter), or a considerable number of orphans (Dialogues of Creatures Moralised, The Oresteia). I accept the latter and I am still stunned by Dialogues every time I have it in my hands, but I wouldn’t consider them superb examples of presswork because in terms of typesetting they simply aren’t.
The Beast in the Jungle drives me mad because of an another misstep in design choice. I think the illustrations are somewhat ok, but why should I want to have a text printed in seven different colours? It is just a bit too much for my taste. Obviously, tastes differ!
>3 kermaier: Thank you. I agree with you. It's definitely not my favourite type for reading. For a play it’s ok though, in my opinion. Generous spacing and the length of the text helps.
>4 MobyRichard:: I can only speak about the Allen Press books I have. In some books it is superb (i.e Pushkin Four Stories, Jealousy) and I consider them highlights of my collection. Others suffer from spacing mistakes (The Sire de Malétroit’s Door), uneven inking and a considerable number of spelling mistakes (Rappaccini’s Daughter), or a considerable number of orphans (Dialogues of Creatures Moralised, The Oresteia). I accept the latter and I am still stunned by Dialogues every time I have it in my hands, but I wouldn’t consider them superb examples of presswork because in terms of typesetting they simply aren’t.
The Beast in the Jungle drives me mad because of an another misstep in design choice. I think the illustrations are somewhat ok, but why should I want to have a text printed in seven different colours? It is just a bit too much for my taste. Obviously, tastes differ!
6venkysuniverse
If you are alright to add a 'retelling' of the play in a lovely edition to your collection, then I will wholeheartedly recommend the edition by Tara books. I have quite a few of the books from this press and they are all hand made on lovely tactile paper and with original illustrations. It is a lovely edition to hold and read, for its price.
https://tarabooks.com/shop/the-bacchae/
The also have few videos which showcase how these handmade books are produced, which are quite fascinating to watch:
https://tarabooks.com/films/
https://tarabooks.com/shop/the-bacchae/
The also have few videos which showcase how these handmade books are produced, which are quite fascinating to watch:
https://tarabooks.com/films/
7dlphcoracl
>1 SebRinelli:
>3 kermaier: has summed it up quite nicely. This is a stunning book, one of the Allen Press finest. It is small folio in size measuring 14 x 10 inches, with ninety pages. The binding is innovative and unique amongst Allen Press books with half olive cloth from Paris, half grained wood veneer and a one inch vertical strip of all-rag Italian black paper with gilt titling running vertically. The paper is top-of-the-line, handmade to order from the Richard de Bas paper mill, established 1326 in France and the text was printed damp on an 1846 Columbian handpress, flawlessly done.
There are three original abstract illustrations by French artist Michèle Forgeois done full-page. They are three-color etchings transferred to copper plates and then printed by Atelier Clot Bramsen et Georges in Paris. They are original works of art and are exceptional. The artist briefly describes the meaning of each illustration underneath the colophon.
The killer here is the unciala type which I hate. It does not read fluidly and when massed together on a page of text it is quite tedious on the eye. This is one of the rare missteps by the Allens, who were attracted to this type because they thought it gives the feel of reading an ancient or medieval manuscript. They also used this type in their edition of Genesis, amongst others. If you can get past the use of this less than optimal type, the book is a true example of the Arts of the Book and, by far, the most beautiful edition of the Bacchae you will find.
>3 kermaier: has summed it up quite nicely. This is a stunning book, one of the Allen Press finest. It is small folio in size measuring 14 x 10 inches, with ninety pages. The binding is innovative and unique amongst Allen Press books with half olive cloth from Paris, half grained wood veneer and a one inch vertical strip of all-rag Italian black paper with gilt titling running vertically. The paper is top-of-the-line, handmade to order from the Richard de Bas paper mill, established 1326 in France and the text was printed damp on an 1846 Columbian handpress, flawlessly done.
There are three original abstract illustrations by French artist Michèle Forgeois done full-page. They are three-color etchings transferred to copper plates and then printed by Atelier Clot Bramsen et Georges in Paris. They are original works of art and are exceptional. The artist briefly describes the meaning of each illustration underneath the colophon.
The killer here is the unciala type which I hate. It does not read fluidly and when massed together on a page of text it is quite tedious on the eye. This is one of the rare missteps by the Allens, who were attracted to this type because they thought it gives the feel of reading an ancient or medieval manuscript. They also used this type in their edition of Genesis, amongst others. If you can get past the use of this less than optimal type, the book is a true example of the Arts of the Book and, by far, the most beautiful edition of the Bacchae you will find.
8booksforreading
>7 dlphcoracl:
"This is one of the rare missteps by the Allens, who were attracted to this type because they thought it gives the feel of reading an ancient or medieval manuscript."
Another such misstep, in my opinion, is their All for Love book, with impressive portrait of Cleopatra. I found the type in that book very difficult for reading, and I did not want to just keep the book on a shelf for art sake (to take it out periodically for a few minutes at a time to admire the work and replacing it back on a shelf), so I sold it and have absolutely no regrets.
:)
"This is one of the rare missteps by the Allens, who were attracted to this type because they thought it gives the feel of reading an ancient or medieval manuscript."
Another such misstep, in my opinion, is their All for Love book, with impressive portrait of Cleopatra. I found the type in that book very difficult for reading, and I did not want to just keep the book on a shelf for art sake (to take it out periodically for a few minutes at a time to admire the work and replacing it back on a shelf), so I sold it and have absolutely no regrets.
:)
9SF-72
>6 venkysuniverse:
I just ordered two of the Tara books. They do look nice and the price is very good. It will be interesting to see them in person and I hope that shipping will work well, too. It's with DHL Express and they sometimes rip German buyers off with invented shipping and therefore customs charges, so I hope that won't happen here.
I just ordered two of the Tara books. They do look nice and the price is very good. It will be interesting to see them in person and I hope that shipping will work well, too. It's with DHL Express and they sometimes rip German buyers off with invented shipping and therefore customs charges, so I hope that won't happen here.
10DenimDan
>1 SebRinelli: I'd love to hear your follow up on this. Did you pull the trigger on it? Are you still considering it? I have this book (among about a dozen others from the Allens), so I thought I'd add my 2 cents.
You're familiar with Allen Press already, so I'll just briefly mention the obvious: Bacchae was done in what almost everyone agrees is their greatest period of productivity, and it shares a lot in common with some of their best. They themselves considered it one of their most successful books, up there with Genesis (which is the best of theirs that I have). As >dlphcoracl points out (astute oracle as always), the binding on this is one of its most striking features. It's akin to what they did on Camus' The Fall (1966), but taken even further. It is something to behold, and probably the hallmark of this book. The Richard de Bas paper for the text is wonderful, and their printing is pretty consistent in this text (at least in my copy).
To me, it comes down to the uncial type and, to a lesser extent, the price. The Allens absolutely loved uncials, even for texts in which they might not have been the most appropriate choice. (OT: I think Victor Hammer, in his obsession to create the perfect uncial face, falls into this trap too, although the subject matter of most of his works meshes better with uncials.) If you intend for this to be your primary reading copy, it's not ideal; then again, uncials usually aren't unless you're a medieval transplant. Don't get me wrong, it's an attractive use of the face, one that I think fits the play well and that they presented in as readable style as one can with this kind of face. But you've got to be committed to it. If you have any objection to uncials, then their Bacchae is a no-go.
Then there's the price. I think it's an ok deal. Compared to some of their other folios, it's not ridiculously expensive, although you could buy both their Antigone (1978) and the two-volume Oresteia (1982) for a little bit more than the cost of the Bacchae. I think this is their best execution of the Greek tragedies. Is it twice as good as the Oresteia? Not to me, but they employed a much different approach for those texts, and they didn't do their best work in the Oresteia either.
I don't know whether this is helpful at all, or if you've moved on since then. Maybe I just like talking about the Allens. Mostly, I'd love to hear what you ended up deciding.
You're familiar with Allen Press already, so I'll just briefly mention the obvious: Bacchae was done in what almost everyone agrees is their greatest period of productivity, and it shares a lot in common with some of their best. They themselves considered it one of their most successful books, up there with Genesis (which is the best of theirs that I have). As >dlphcoracl points out (astute oracle as always), the binding on this is one of its most striking features. It's akin to what they did on Camus' The Fall (1966), but taken even further. It is something to behold, and probably the hallmark of this book. The Richard de Bas paper for the text is wonderful, and their printing is pretty consistent in this text (at least in my copy).
To me, it comes down to the uncial type and, to a lesser extent, the price. The Allens absolutely loved uncials, even for texts in which they might not have been the most appropriate choice. (OT: I think Victor Hammer, in his obsession to create the perfect uncial face, falls into this trap too, although the subject matter of most of his works meshes better with uncials.) If you intend for this to be your primary reading copy, it's not ideal; then again, uncials usually aren't unless you're a medieval transplant. Don't get me wrong, it's an attractive use of the face, one that I think fits the play well and that they presented in as readable style as one can with this kind of face. But you've got to be committed to it. If you have any objection to uncials, then their Bacchae is a no-go.
Then there's the price. I think it's an ok deal. Compared to some of their other folios, it's not ridiculously expensive, although you could buy both their Antigone (1978) and the two-volume Oresteia (1982) for a little bit more than the cost of the Bacchae. I think this is their best execution of the Greek tragedies. Is it twice as good as the Oresteia? Not to me, but they employed a much different approach for those texts, and they didn't do their best work in the Oresteia either.
I don't know whether this is helpful at all, or if you've moved on since then. Maybe I just like talking about the Allens. Mostly, I'd love to hear what you ended up deciding.
11SebRinelli
>10 DenimDan: Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Very appreciated. I couldn't pull the trigger yet, primarily because of the uncial typeface. I certainly didn't like it in the Oresteia.
Until I haven't seriously explored possibilities to commission fine press books and publish them, the Allen's Bacchae is probably the lowest item on a very long wish list. Should I realise that my dreams of commissioning works myself is bursting like a soap bubble (not sure if this proverb exists in English!), the Allen's will be the to go edition.
In the meanwhile, I am soothing myself with hunting for Youth, Persian Stories, Mirrour of the World, Genenis, and Poeticon Astronomicon. Quite a few to go!
By the way, what would be the appetite on this forum for another edition, perhaps set in Ptolemy and printed on Magnani Pescia? Who would be a suitable illustrator? Barry Moser, Wendy Artin, somebody totally different?
Until I haven't seriously explored possibilities to commission fine press books and publish them, the Allen's Bacchae is probably the lowest item on a very long wish list. Should I realise that my dreams of commissioning works myself is bursting like a soap bubble (not sure if this proverb exists in English!), the Allen's will be the to go edition.
In the meanwhile, I am soothing myself with hunting for Youth, Persian Stories, Mirrour of the World, Genenis, and Poeticon Astronomicon. Quite a few to go!
By the way, what would be the appetite on this forum for another edition, perhaps set in Ptolemy and printed on Magnani Pescia? Who would be a suitable illustrator? Barry Moser, Wendy Artin, somebody totally different?
12MobyRichard
>11 SebRinelli:
Good luck with Poeticon. A few years ago the price went from reasonable to insane. Like a seven-fold increase...hard to justify considering all other Allen Press books are usually slightly undervalued.
For illustrators, David Rooney? He illustrated the Folio Plutarch's lives.
Good luck with Poeticon. A few years ago the price went from reasonable to insane. Like a seven-fold increase...hard to justify considering all other Allen Press books are usually slightly undervalued.
For illustrators, David Rooney? He illustrated the Folio Plutarch's lives.
13DenimDan
>11 SebRinelli: Totally understandable. A lot of the time with Allen Press books, I have a list of ones that I desperately want (and will pay ridiculous sums for when they appear), and then there are those that I plan to get around to. Genesis was one that I wanted badly enough that I was willing to shell out a goodly portion of my book budget on whenever it appeared. But when I did find one at auction, I got it for much less than I expected, one of my few lucky purchases. I don't even know what a copy of it would go for now, since it comes up so rarely compared to most other Allen books.
I spent four days at a library reading the Poeticon. It is a magnificent production, and I can see why prices have gone parabolic. But I'm glad I got the chance to read it, because it's not the kind of book that I would normally select to sit down to read on any given day. Sometimes, the Allens chose texts that are even too esoteric for me.
>12 MobyRichard:
Definitely agree that a lot of Allen books are undervalued, considering what books with their qualities would go for if produced today. I can't even imagine what some new presses would charge for something like Jealousy if it were to be published in 2020. As it is, that book is a steal!
I spent four days at a library reading the Poeticon. It is a magnificent production, and I can see why prices have gone parabolic. But I'm glad I got the chance to read it, because it's not the kind of book that I would normally select to sit down to read on any given day. Sometimes, the Allens chose texts that are even too esoteric for me.
>12 MobyRichard:
Definitely agree that a lot of Allen books are undervalued, considering what books with their qualities would go for if produced today. I can't even imagine what some new presses would charge for something like Jealousy if it were to be published in 2020. As it is, that book is a steal!
