1richardbsmith
This has always been a tough story for me.
Why did Jesus send the demons into the pigs to their demise?
The account ends with Jesus telling the now healed demoniac to tell his family all the Lord has done and how he showed mercy.
How was it merciful for the Lord to allow the man to be possessed in the first place?
I can address my concerns with the passage by taking a modern and critical approach.
How is it possible to address concerns with the passage as it is presented?
Why did Jesus send the demons into the pigs to their demise?
The account ends with Jesus telling the now healed demoniac to tell his family all the Lord has done and how he showed mercy.
How was it merciful for the Lord to allow the man to be possessed in the first place?
I can address my concerns with the passage by taking a modern and critical approach.
How is it possible to address concerns with the passage as it is presented?
2cpg
If demonic possession is incompatible with a merciful God, then so are billions of other adversities that have afflicted mankind. There are lots of books on theodicy.
3richardbsmith
Do any of the books answer the question?
And you are correct that this question extends beyond this story in Mark.
A girl injured in a car accident, hit by a drunk driver.
We are to pray for God to heal the injured girl.
Yet the question comes to mind, if God wants the girl healed, would it not have been better to have the drunk miss her?
Jesus commands the healed demoniac to tell of God's mercy. If God is merciful in the healing, to what degree is God culpable in the disease?
And you are correct that this question extends beyond this story in Mark.
A girl injured in a car accident, hit by a drunk driver.
We are to pray for God to heal the injured girl.
Yet the question comes to mind, if God wants the girl healed, would it not have been better to have the drunk miss her?
Jesus commands the healed demoniac to tell of God's mercy. If God is merciful in the healing, to what degree is God culpable in the disease?
4cl1914p
I wish that I could answer your question, richardbsmith, but the truth is, there is something, which we will never understand. I maybe wrong, but I think that you are saying prevent is better than cure; and I really agree with that. Even so there are many things which are beyond our comprehension. One of the many things in the Bible that I can't understand, is in St. Matthew 25:15-30 its about the men with the talents. What's wrong about the man who was fearful of losing ...?
6r_j
>1 richardbsmith:
Why did Jesus send the demons into the pigs to their demise?
A) Because the demons requested it in verse 12 of Mark 5. The demons besought (begged) to go into the swine (Mark 5:1-14). The demons enjoyed being in this man's body. They did not want to be sent back to the abyss (Luke 8:31). The abyss (the bottomless pit). This seems to be the abode of Satan, his angels and demons until the judgment day at which time they will be cast into hell (Revelation 9:1-22; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3, 10, 15). Therefore, they asked Jesus not to send them back to their abode. It is not explained why Jesus allowed the demons to go into the swine and destroy them. Conceivably, this happened to show the reality of the demons. This is confirmed by "they", being those that were tending the livestock (Mark 5:14-16).
The account ends with Jesus telling the now healed demoniac to tell his family all the Lord has done and how he showed mercy.
How was it merciful for the Lord to allow the man to be possessed in the first place?
A) James 1:2-5 teaches that the various trials that come upon us actually improve our character. And Peter states in 1 Peter 1:6-7 that these trials will refine us so that we are like pure gold on the day in which Jesus is revealed.
As followers of Christ, taking up our own crosses to walk in His footsteps, we may have to endure the same.
Jesus told the man (Mark 5:19-20) to return home and tell others what great things the Lord had done for him. This man would be the first one to preach Christ in that area, he could testify to Jesus' power. He could proclaimed this personal and powerful message in the district of the ten cities (Decapolis).
Keeping in mind Isaiah 55:8-9, our merciful God sees a larger landscape. This one man in Mark 5 can now reach many more in these areas with the message of mercy, love, grace, hope and comfort found only in His Son Jesus Christ.
I can address my concerns with the passage by taking a modern and critical approach.
How is it possible to address concerns with the passage as it is presented?
A) It is in God’s time and design of things to allow (not cause) the various injustices that take place in this world. God uses these injustices as tests which prove the faith of mankind and discern those who are worthy of heaven. This same question was also a problem to the Preacher in Ecclesiastes 3:16-17. His answer was that the day will come when all of these injustices will be rectified. God has a time and a purpose for every work, and there is a time when God will judge the righteous as well as the wicked. Ecclesiastes 7:13-14 states that God has allowed both good days and bad days to come so that man will not be able to find out what will happen after him. If man cannot know his own future, he cannot determine his own destiny and must, if he will be wise, put his faith in God instead of himself. This is in God’s purpose and causes man to desire all the more the heavenly realm (Romans 8:18-25).
Just read your post today and I hope this helps some.
Why did Jesus send the demons into the pigs to their demise?
A) Because the demons requested it in verse 12 of Mark 5. The demons besought (begged) to go into the swine (Mark 5:1-14). The demons enjoyed being in this man's body. They did not want to be sent back to the abyss (Luke 8:31). The abyss (the bottomless pit). This seems to be the abode of Satan, his angels and demons until the judgment day at which time they will be cast into hell (Revelation 9:1-22; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1-3, 10, 15). Therefore, they asked Jesus not to send them back to their abode. It is not explained why Jesus allowed the demons to go into the swine and destroy them. Conceivably, this happened to show the reality of the demons. This is confirmed by "they", being those that were tending the livestock (Mark 5:14-16).
The account ends with Jesus telling the now healed demoniac to tell his family all the Lord has done and how he showed mercy.
How was it merciful for the Lord to allow the man to be possessed in the first place?
A) James 1:2-5 teaches that the various trials that come upon us actually improve our character. And Peter states in 1 Peter 1:6-7 that these trials will refine us so that we are like pure gold on the day in which Jesus is revealed.
As followers of Christ, taking up our own crosses to walk in His footsteps, we may have to endure the same.
Jesus told the man (Mark 5:19-20) to return home and tell others what great things the Lord had done for him. This man would be the first one to preach Christ in that area, he could testify to Jesus' power. He could proclaimed this personal and powerful message in the district of the ten cities (Decapolis).
Keeping in mind Isaiah 55:8-9, our merciful God sees a larger landscape. This one man in Mark 5 can now reach many more in these areas with the message of mercy, love, grace, hope and comfort found only in His Son Jesus Christ.
I can address my concerns with the passage by taking a modern and critical approach.
How is it possible to address concerns with the passage as it is presented?
A) It is in God’s time and design of things to allow (not cause) the various injustices that take place in this world. God uses these injustices as tests which prove the faith of mankind and discern those who are worthy of heaven. This same question was also a problem to the Preacher in Ecclesiastes 3:16-17. His answer was that the day will come when all of these injustices will be rectified. God has a time and a purpose for every work, and there is a time when God will judge the righteous as well as the wicked. Ecclesiastes 7:13-14 states that God has allowed both good days and bad days to come so that man will not be able to find out what will happen after him. If man cannot know his own future, he cannot determine his own destiny and must, if he will be wise, put his faith in God instead of himself. This is in God’s purpose and causes man to desire all the more the heavenly realm (Romans 8:18-25).
Just read your post today and I hope this helps some.
7Reality1843
>6Oh, the kind of mental gymnastics the human mind can execute to try and justify the irrational!
So, you believe your God is so vile, uncaring, and self-absorbed that He will let bad things befall anyone who does not pray to, or bow down and worship Him constantly - all because He really cares?
If you believe your explanation, you should encourage everyone to treat those they love and care about to the sometimes permanent harm the way you explain God does it. It is utter nonsense.
You mine the Bible for passages that support your flawed theories – even the Devil can find passages to support his ideas. That is because one of the many inescapable facts that life repeatedly teaches is that every religious book, including the Bible, was written by humans for the convenience of humankind. Any reference to God is merely a means to an end. The challenge: Can you find any of the many incompatible messages in the Bible that makes it completely useless as a guide for living?
So many self-righteous religious charlatans keep quoting Bible verses as nuggets of wisdom while being too stupid or ignorant to notice that because it is a book of fallible human opinions, it often contains diametrically opposed moral instructions rendering it unreliable and useless. To compensate, people follow the interpretation that is convenient to them at any given time, thereby rendering any such exercise foolhardy instead of foolproof.
In your lifetime you bear witness to humans, as with the ones who wrote or compiled various religious books – including the Bible - creating God, a very pliable being whose qualities they revise as needed. He abhors evil doers yet they claim He elevates their stature by using “evil” to do good. Rape is horrible but that does not stop the charlatans from claiming that God used it to create “precious” life.
Life is a series of choices. Should you ”love your neighbor like yourself” or stone them to death if homosexual? Which conflicting Bible instruction should you choose?
The Bible, a book of selected human opinions, myths, and superstitions is declared the “Words of God.”
A common defect of the religious is the fact that they overrate their knowledge, intelligence, and relationship with a God, relative to others, to the point where they behave as if God is an idiot they can outsmart! They dare to blame any irrational claims on the limitations of the human mind!
Another thing life teaches us frequently is that believing a lie can be as catastrophic as, or sometimes more than, telling one. Just think of how dangerous the people are who do both. Some people believe their own lies.
So, you believe your God is so vile, uncaring, and self-absorbed that He will let bad things befall anyone who does not pray to, or bow down and worship Him constantly - all because He really cares?
If you believe your explanation, you should encourage everyone to treat those they love and care about to the sometimes permanent harm the way you explain God does it. It is utter nonsense.
You mine the Bible for passages that support your flawed theories – even the Devil can find passages to support his ideas. That is because one of the many inescapable facts that life repeatedly teaches is that every religious book, including the Bible, was written by humans for the convenience of humankind. Any reference to God is merely a means to an end. The challenge: Can you find any of the many incompatible messages in the Bible that makes it completely useless as a guide for living?
So many self-righteous religious charlatans keep quoting Bible verses as nuggets of wisdom while being too stupid or ignorant to notice that because it is a book of fallible human opinions, it often contains diametrically opposed moral instructions rendering it unreliable and useless. To compensate, people follow the interpretation that is convenient to them at any given time, thereby rendering any such exercise foolhardy instead of foolproof.
In your lifetime you bear witness to humans, as with the ones who wrote or compiled various religious books – including the Bible - creating God, a very pliable being whose qualities they revise as needed. He abhors evil doers yet they claim He elevates their stature by using “evil” to do good. Rape is horrible but that does not stop the charlatans from claiming that God used it to create “precious” life.
Life is a series of choices. Should you ”love your neighbor like yourself” or stone them to death if homosexual? Which conflicting Bible instruction should you choose?
The Bible, a book of selected human opinions, myths, and superstitions is declared the “Words of God.”
A common defect of the religious is the fact that they overrate their knowledge, intelligence, and relationship with a God, relative to others, to the point where they behave as if God is an idiot they can outsmart! They dare to blame any irrational claims on the limitations of the human mind!
Another thing life teaches us frequently is that believing a lie can be as catastrophic as, or sometimes more than, telling one. Just think of how dangerous the people are who do both. Some people believe their own lies.
8John5918
>7 Reality1843:
Good to see you posting again. I think we have interacted in the past.
I would agree that what you write describes a lot of Christians, particularly those who suffer from bible literalism. For those others who follow modern biblical exegetical thought, it's not about cherry-picking individual verses but examining the development of the thinking of those who believe they experienced God in their lives, both the biblical authors themselves and those they write about (and yes, I agree of course that the bible is written by humans), and drawing from it the dominant themes which do not depend on individual verses. Where there are contradictions it's important to examine how and why, and that in itself gives us a greater understanding.
I'm not sure why you are so dismissive of contradictions in a body of literature written in many different styles by many different authors in many different places in many different circumstances over a period of several thousand years, and transmitted to us in various fragments and forms in various languages and translations. If we look at the great store of global human wisdom collected in oral tradition, myths, proverbs, sayings, fairy tales, folk songs, poetry, theatre, art, music, novels, rituals, philosophical works and yes, religious texts of all faiths, of course there are contradictions, but that doesn't mean we can't find value in a particular proverb in a particular situation, for example, or in a fairy tale which, while nobody would dream of taking it literally, offers some insight into the human condition. One of my scripture professors always liked to emphasise that the bible is not a book, it is a library. Is a library worthless because it contains some contradictory texts?
Good to see you posting again. I think we have interacted in the past.
I would agree that what you write describes a lot of Christians, particularly those who suffer from bible literalism. For those others who follow modern biblical exegetical thought, it's not about cherry-picking individual verses but examining the development of the thinking of those who believe they experienced God in their lives, both the biblical authors themselves and those they write about (and yes, I agree of course that the bible is written by humans), and drawing from it the dominant themes which do not depend on individual verses. Where there are contradictions it's important to examine how and why, and that in itself gives us a greater understanding.
I'm not sure why you are so dismissive of contradictions in a body of literature written in many different styles by many different authors in many different places in many different circumstances over a period of several thousand years, and transmitted to us in various fragments and forms in various languages and translations. If we look at the great store of global human wisdom collected in oral tradition, myths, proverbs, sayings, fairy tales, folk songs, poetry, theatre, art, music, novels, rituals, philosophical works and yes, religious texts of all faiths, of course there are contradictions, but that doesn't mean we can't find value in a particular proverb in a particular situation, for example, or in a fairy tale which, while nobody would dream of taking it literally, offers some insight into the human condition. One of my scripture professors always liked to emphasise that the bible is not a book, it is a library. Is a library worthless because it contains some contradictory texts?
9r_j
>7 Reality1843:
I will be praying for you Reality1843 as Satan is as a “roaring lion” (1 Peter 5:8) and from your comments/reply, you appear to be within Satan's grasp.
Just as Jesus prayed for Peter I will pray for you.
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee ... (Luke 22:31-32).
To believe in the Bible is to believe in the reality of God and Satan. A rejection of either is a rejection of their existence. The Bible pictures them as irreconcilable enemies, and it reveals the eternal conflict between them as it relates to man. To deny the existence of one is to deny the existence of the other, for when one rejects one supernatural fact, it is easy to reject another. To deny the reality of one is to deny the entire plan of the Bible, for it presents a conflict between two foes.
Satan’s purpose is to rob God of the glory which He should rightly receive from His creatures. God receives glory only when His creatures willingly, joyously, and constantly obey Him. Satan robs God of this glory when he can successfully entice men to look favorably to him and unfavorably to God.
God instructions as found in Exo. 20:5-6, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; v. 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
I will be praying for you Reality1843 as Satan is as a “roaring lion” (1 Peter 5:8) and from your comments/reply, you appear to be within Satan's grasp.
Just as Jesus prayed for Peter I will pray for you.
"And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee ... (Luke 22:31-32).
To believe in the Bible is to believe in the reality of God and Satan. A rejection of either is a rejection of their existence. The Bible pictures them as irreconcilable enemies, and it reveals the eternal conflict between them as it relates to man. To deny the existence of one is to deny the existence of the other, for when one rejects one supernatural fact, it is easy to reject another. To deny the reality of one is to deny the entire plan of the Bible, for it presents a conflict between two foes.
Satan’s purpose is to rob God of the glory which He should rightly receive from His creatures. God receives glory only when His creatures willingly, joyously, and constantly obey Him. Satan robs God of this glory when he can successfully entice men to look favorably to him and unfavorably to God.
God instructions as found in Exo. 20:5-6, Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; v. 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
10Reality1843
>8 John5918: Yes, it has been a while but I have not lost my quest to encourage people to vet the ideas they are fed, the sources, and objectives. The decades have taught me one very important thing - destroyed my naiveté - a good occurrence - "there is a certain percentage of "defective" minds in any given population. This is often highlighted by religion and politics.
No, contradictions do not mean the entire works should be discarded. It may be a reflection of differing concepts of reality. It is the listener's/reader's responsibility to vet the source and evidence and apply as appropriate. Christianity relies heavily on the fallacies of circular logic. Man controls the contents Bible (revises it as convenient) - Man quotes the Bible as factual - Man cites the Bible as proof (I am telling you the truth and the evidence is I say I am telling you the truth.)
No, contradictions do not mean the entire works should be discarded. It may be a reflection of differing concepts of reality. It is the listener's/reader's responsibility to vet the source and evidence and apply as appropriate. Christianity relies heavily on the fallacies of circular logic. Man controls the contents Bible (revises it as convenient) - Man quotes the Bible as factual - Man cites the Bible as proof (I am telling you the truth and the evidence is I say I am telling you the truth.)
11Reality1843
>9 r_j: So, you are self-important enough to believe that your praying will influence your God to alter His wisdom filled plans to satisfy your selfishness.
Humans invented praying as a self-serving self-gratifying tool intended for those irrational enough to believe they can use it to flatter and influence God to change His well thought plans. The gimmick generates a false sense of self-importance and often pretends to make a contribution to a solution. The act presumes and implies that God’s plans cannot be trusted since He is ignorant (especially of a human’s thoughts, needs, and wants) and incompetent without helping input from humans. What is your prayer success rate?
You rely so heavily on other people's reality as they portray it in the Bible. Good for you, if that makes you happy. Some people rely on drugs, some let others do the thinking for them. To each his own as long as it does not adversely impact another.
Humans invented praying as a self-serving self-gratifying tool intended for those irrational enough to believe they can use it to flatter and influence God to change His well thought plans. The gimmick generates a false sense of self-importance and often pretends to make a contribution to a solution. The act presumes and implies that God’s plans cannot be trusted since He is ignorant (especially of a human’s thoughts, needs, and wants) and incompetent without helping input from humans. What is your prayer success rate?
You rely so heavily on other people's reality as they portray it in the Bible. Good for you, if that makes you happy. Some people rely on drugs, some let others do the thinking for them. To each his own as long as it does not adversely impact another.
12r_j
>11 Reality1843:
So, you are self-important enough to believe that your praying will influence your God to alter His wisdom filled plans to satisfy your selfishness.
A) God knows our every need even before we ask him. For Jesus said to his disciples, Our heavenly Father knows our every need even before we ask him “… your Father knows what things ye have need of before ye ask him” (Matthew 6:8).
Nevertheless, he still wants us to ask him. He wants us to seek for him and have faith in him. And he wants us to ask rightfully—for things that are good, right, and just. For James said, “Ye do not have, because ye do not ask. Ye ask, and do not receive, ” (James 4:2-3).
Humans invented praying as a self-serving self-gratifying tool intended for those irrational enough to believe they can use it to flatter and influence God to change His well thought plans. The gimmick generates a false sense of self-importance and often pretends to make a contribution to a solution. The act presumes and implies that God’s plans cannot be trusted since He is ignorant (especially of a human’s thoughts, needs, and wants) and incompetent without helping input from humans. What is your prayer success rate?
A) 100% prayer success for me, if such should correspond to the divine will of God.
You rely so heavily on other people's reality as they portray it in the Bible. Good for you, if that makes you happy. Some people rely on drugs, some let others do the thinking for them. To each his own as long as it does not adversely impact another.
A) Thank you
Psalms 119:160 “Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.”
Too many do not let their requests be known so they receive not (James 4:2). If you really take your troubles to God in prayer you get an added blessing -- peace (Philippines 4:6-7).
The only thing better than peace is fighting for truth with the sword of the Spirit. The truth of God's word sets Christian's apart from the world for God's uses (John 17:17) and Christian's are sent into the world (Matthew 28:18-20) to help those that need assistance.
r_j
13John5918
>10 Reality1843: Christianity relies heavily on the fallacies of circular logic. Man controls the contents Bible (revises it as convenient) - Man quotes the Bible as factual - Man cites the Bible as proof (I am telling you the truth and the evidence is I say I am telling you the truth.)
If you were to say "Some Christians" instead of "Christianity", I would of course agree with you. The bible literalist brand of Christians often do rely on circular reasoning. But as you say, "It is the listener's/reader's responsibility to vet the source and evidence and apply as appropriate", and that is what thinking Christians do. In terms of the bible they do it through biblical exegesis and hermeneutical analysis.
Humans wrote the bible, yes, humans chose which books would be in the bible (and there is still disagreement, eg the deuterocanonical books), and yes, it can be revised as new source material and new translation techniques come into play. Some humans quote the bible as factual, but thinking Christians recognise it as being far more coimplex than that. Some humans cite the bible as proof, but others cite it as a source of wisdom.
Incidentally many Christians now use inclusive language and would not use the masculine "man" in this context as you do.
If you were to say "Some Christians" instead of "Christianity", I would of course agree with you. The bible literalist brand of Christians often do rely on circular reasoning. But as you say, "It is the listener's/reader's responsibility to vet the source and evidence and apply as appropriate", and that is what thinking Christians do. In terms of the bible they do it through biblical exegesis and hermeneutical analysis.
Humans wrote the bible, yes, humans chose which books would be in the bible (and there is still disagreement, eg the deuterocanonical books), and yes, it can be revised as new source material and new translation techniques come into play. Some humans quote the bible as factual, but thinking Christians recognise it as being far more coimplex than that. Some humans cite the bible as proof, but others cite it as a source of wisdom.
Incidentally many Christians now use inclusive language and would not use the masculine "man" in this context as you do.
14John5918
>12 r_j:
Your posts would be a lot easier to read if you would use bold or italics or just plain old "quotation marks" to distinguish what you are quoting from Reality1843 from what you yourself are writing.
Your posts would be a lot easier to read if you would use bold or italics or just plain old "quotation marks" to distinguish what you are quoting from Reality1843 from what you yourself are writing.
15r_j
>14 John5918: Okay, thanks for the your help.
