Pledge -- "Under God" lawsuit

A lawsuit has been filed here in NJ to remove "Under God" from the pledge. It'll be interesting to see how this turns out.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/21/atheist-lawsuit-claims-under-god-in-nj-sch...

Does the phrase 'harm children'? I hardly think so.

Does the phrase need to be in the Pledge? No.

It's been 60 years, I think we can remove the phrase safely.

But I'm not sure how this will turn out.

I remember when the phrase was added, something about showing the Russians that we weren't godless communists. I doubt they or anyone else was impressed or frightened. My mother remembered when they changed the pledge to keep your hand over your heart through the whole thing and not use a straight arm (Nazi style) salute starting at the words "to the flag." One of my classmates in early elementary school never said the pledge at all because he was Jehovah's Witness. (We thought he was strange.) It is my understanding that Quakers do not swear oaths but I don't know if they say the pledge.

In high school one day we were discussing the custom of saying the lord's prayer every morning before announcements. I had never given it much thought but one of the girls said that she was Catholic and they used a different version so she just said that one. Then another girl said, "I'm Jewish so I silently say a Hebrew prayer." I didn't think it was right that they were forced to hear the Protestant prayer every day until the practice was ended in the early 1960s.

I don't think mumbling the pledge each morning really accomplishes anything but we should at least do away with the religious connotations. Patriotism is not bound up with any religion and is not required in order to participate as a citizen. See Article VI and the First Amendment.

Does the phrase 'harm children'? I hardly think so.

There's an argument, and I think it can be a good one, that by including "under God" in the pledge, which most elementary-aged children must listen to daily, if not repeat themselves, the children are being taught that "God" is a real thing that one must believe in in order to be patriotic/part of the country.

To not believe in God but have to say that line every day (or listen to everyone else say it) can be alienating, and it does lead to bullying and ostracizing, which we know is harmful to children. (Well, harmful to everyone, but adults are more likely to have support systems in place and so on.)

Good point. Yes, I guess in that sense it does harm children - by brainwashing them. (Not being American I'm keeping out of this one though. I never fully understood the whole pledging thingy anyway. As a kid I was never expected to pledge allegiance to the Dutch flag. From my point of view the WHOLE procedure is beyond silly).

I think that's a bit of stretch. Honestly, for most kids, the Pledge is something you do because adults want you to say it; it's not nearly as important as hoping there's no pop quizzes, that you got your homework right, that you can avoid 'booger-face' Johnson at lunch.

'Bullying' is the new buzz-word for getting something done 'for the children'. I'd prefer that the phrase 'Under God' be taken out of our Pledge and off our money for other reasons. (And frankly, I should think that real Christians ought to be offended about the idea of praising God on symbols of Mammon...)

It is my understanding that "In god we trust" was first put on U.S. money in 1863 - to emphasize that fact that god, or godliness perhaps, was with the north, implying implicitly that the south and slavery were godless.

Even though I'm an atheist I think maybe that was a well-deserved "in your face" so I think we should keep that and teach the history of it in public schools.

Other than that the use of the word "god" by governments is an unimportant issue. No one owns the word "god" or owns its meaning. God is not a christian word, per se. E.g., pantheists use the word. If the pledge had been amended with the phrase "Under christ" then, sure, that would have been a problem.

I agree that the use of the god word by the government doesn't make government seem somehow more holy or trustworthy but merely taints the word since most people claim to hate government - or at the least believe it a necessary evil.

Although there was coinage issued as early as 1864 (http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx) it didn't become standard until 1938.

The Pledge has also been changed several times (http://www.ushistory.org/documents/pledge.htm); the most recently adding in 'Under God' (which means we could defeat Nazis without God's help, but not the Communists who had been our allies).

I would still prefer if the phrases were removed, but I doubt that's going to happen.

>5 Nicole_VanK: I was never expected to pledge allegiance to the Dutch flag.

That brings up an interesting point. How many countries do have some sort of pledge to a flag or the nation or whatever? Is this common or is it unique to the US?

I think that's a bit of stretch. Honestly, for most kids, the Pledge is something you do because adults want you to say it

Well, you could say that about church attendance, too.

>6 BruceCoulson: Honestly, for most kids, the Pledge is something you do because adults want you to say it

Which makes it normative. It sets the standard for normal American patriotism; anyone who doesn't say it is "strange", as Taphophile13 says.

When I was in high school, I attended a basketball game with an acquaintance of mine, Josh. Josh's family were all Jehovah's Witnesses. When it came time for the national anthem to be played, Josh remained seated, as his religion dictated.

The parents surrounding us in the stands cursed him, quite loudly and vigorously. I'd like to say that I had the gumption to sit next to him, but that's probably just wishful thinking/embellishment of memory on my part.

> 12

Yeah - in the U.S. pretentious hyperpatriotism is as much a part of the common religion as theistic religion is.

Best example of that fact was a few years back when so many people lost their shit over the flag-burning issue. Remember how many people supported a Constitutional amendment to ban flag-burning?

Dummies. And way more so than the hippie scum who were burning the flags because the hippies were just jokes - as opposed to those who wanted to ban flag-burning, who were, and are, dangerous ignorant assholes.

Having to say the pledge in the morning was a main contributor to the fact that I was distrustful of school in my youth. I felt like I was being indoctrinated, not educated, and it took basically until senior year in high school for me to see the good aspects of it.

What a waste of time. Just because someone is bludgeoned into saying it doesn't make them believe it.

>13 JGL53: One of the court cases that frustrated me the most was where a college student was arrested for putting electrical tape on his US flag in the shape of a peace sign and putting it in his window. When the police accosted him, he removed it without damage to the flag, and they still arrested him. Apparently the cops felt it was against the law to use the US flag to communicate a message they didn't approve of.

US patriotism frequently appears extreme to outsiders. A New Zealand couple of my acquaintance were unlucky enough to attend church on July 4th, and were subjected to such jingoistic hogwash that they never went to church again for as long as they were in the US. My kids weren't old enough to attend school while we were there, so I didn't have to put my foot down about refusing the pledge.

A Gary Wardrip in my home county was not only arrested for desecrating the U.S. flag, he was convicted and sentenced to stand on the courthouse lawn and properly display it for several hours.

http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/32790163/

Not only did we have to recite the pledge but then we had to read a chapter of the bible to the rest of the class immediately after. This was a public school in the 70s.

>16 MyopicBookworm:

not just to outsiders...

>9 Taphophile13: Uncommon! Not sure if it's just the US. But not at all over all of Europe as far as I know. Certainly not the UK where I live. Nor germany where I have lived. Nor France or Holland or Spain where my friends live, unless I've missed it. And it doesn't sound liek the sort of thing you'd miss. Sure the national flag is treated with respect, and flag burning is deemed an issue. (Although a surprising % of UK flags end up being flown upside down as people forget/don't know that it isn't symetrical)

>20 reading_fox: Sure the national flag is treated with respect, and flag burning is deemed an issue.

Strangely enough, flag-burning does not bother me, but "flag neglect," I think you'd call it, gets me every time. A flag burning (for protest purposes, or as an artistic statement or whatever) is responding to what the flag represents. Its significance, its importance, is acknowledged. But having grown up with the rules of flag etiquette drummed into my head at numerous Girl Scout meetings, I now cringe when I see the flag treated carelessly. There's a guy on my street who put a flag pole up but often leaves the flag on it over night, or when he takes it in, often lets it drop to the ground, and then just sort of balls it up and sticks it on a tool shelf in his garage. He's a die-hard redneck America is the greatest nation on earth patriot, and I'm just about the opposite, but every time I see him bunching up his flag with his grubby hands I want to give him a lesson in manners and respect.

in the U.S. pretentious hyperpatriotism is as much a part of the common religion as theistic religion is.

Best part about the whole thing is that the ability to sit and exercise his religion is precisely what the flag ostensibly represents.

>21 southernbooklady:

Me too, just as you say.

> 22

"Best part about the whole thing is that the ability to sit and exercise his religion is precisely what the flag ostensibly represents."

Is the operative word in that sentence "ostensibly"?

I would say it is, considering the number of christian bigots in the U.S. who define freedom of religion as freedom to be a christian and promote christianity anywhere, anytime, in any way, with any and all non-christian viewpoints being subject to "majority rule" - i.e., such people can just "sit in the back of the bus", as it were.

No one ever goes broke underestimating the number of stupid chauvinistic people in the U.S. of A.

>20 reading_fox:
Thank you for your reply. I had suspected that such choreographed displays of patriotism were not the norm; in fact, they seem more typical of China or North Korea.

I also think the reaction to flag burning is a bit funny. You can't destroy a symbol and when a flag has become too worn to be properly flown the respectful method of retiring it is burning. I also wonder how many of those who object to flag burning protests think nothing of wearing flag design clothing. "The flag should not be used for any decoration in general. The flag should not be used as part of a costume or athletic uniform." Source: American Flag Etiquette

#24

"No one ever goes broke underestimating the number of stupid people."

There, fixed that for you.

#21

As a former Boy Scout, I have the same visceral reaction to people being careless (as opposed to burning the flag in protest, a deliberate act) with the flag.

>26 BruceCoulson: As a former Boy Scout, I have the same visceral reaction

It was well-instilled brainwashing, wasn't it?

That it was. Having a father who was Order of the Arrow probably helped a bit as well...

When it came to brainwashing, the Scouts were almost as effective as Schoolhouse Rock. To this day I mentally sing the preamble to the Constitution.

There are worse songs to get stuck in your head.

The problem is more so a republican one nowadays, i.e., white people, old people and especially old white people (of Northern European ancestry) constitute an extreme majority of those in the U.S. who confuse super-nationalism and/or christianity with patriotism, and who would be more inclined to endorse suppression of any speech that they just disagree with.

Perhaps the actuarial tables, plus disproportionate increased immigration of non-Northern European whites - i.e., Hispanics, Asians, Africans, etc. - will ameliorate the situation in time so that one day, one can hope, the embarrassment can be marginalized rather than celebrated, as it is today by many members and leaders of one of the two major political parties.

Ya know what I mean, Bruce?

Free Speech for me- But Not For Thee

It's a nice thought, and your current description of the situation is sadly correct in general (although I'm sure both of us can think of exceptions...)

But I feel that we may eliminate the current specific problems only to replace them with other variations.

The urge to suppress free expression is universal, although WHAT is considered objectionable is different for everyone.

For me, the original topic fall into the 'it's wrong, but it's not worth the major effort it would require to correct matters'.

No patriotic pledge in the UK but I had to recite the cub scout law at every scout meeting I attended. Even though I was only 9 years old, I wondered what scouting had to do with God. I was happy with the Queen bit though.

I promise that I will do my best
To do my duty to God and to the Queen
To help other people
And to keep the Cub Scout Law.

Girl Scout pledge when I was a kid was similar -

. . . to do my best
for God and my country
and to help other people every day . .

BSA:

On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

I always had trouble with those mental and moral requirements...

When I was Brownie in the 1990s, it was:

On my honor, I will try
To serve God and my country
To help people at all times
And to live by the Girl Scout Law.

My mom asked me if I had any problem with saying the "God" part, as I was not raised religious. I wasn't taking it very seriously, so I had no objection to swearing that. I had more trouble with the "help people AT ALL TIMES" part, because as a kid, I had other things I wanted to do for much of my day.

Ok little 8-year-old girl, "don't try, DO!!!"

(I'm trying to sound like that sage, Yoda)

“I plead alignment to the flakes of the untitled snakes of a merry cow and to the republicrats for which they scam: one nacho, underpants with licorice and jugs of wine for owls.”

― Matt Groening, The Big Book of Hell: The Best of Life in Hell

"There's a bathroom on the right."

- from 'Bad Moon Rising' by Creedence Clearwater Revival