What race was Jesus?

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What race was Jesus?

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1oregonobsessionz
Déc 14, 2013, 1:39 am

So, apparently a Fox announcer expressed outrage over a recent article on Slate suggesting that Santa should be a penguin instead of a white man. The Fox announcer also took exception to suggestions that Jesus might not be white.

Next John Stewart got into the act.

The credibility of the pro and con arguments is discussed on the CNN Belief Blog, where the comments almost made me pee in my pants.

2lilithcat
Déc 14, 2013, 1:46 am

Jesus was Jewish, a Semite; ergo, Caucasian.

3guido47
Déc 14, 2013, 1:51 am

Dear oregonobsessionz, The Ancient History Group is more likely to give a thoughtful discussion. But for Vim & Vinegar,
stay here :-)

4Nicole_VanK
Déc 14, 2013, 1:52 am

"Being a penguin, Santa Claus can still reside in a snowy homeland—though for scientific accuracy we’ll need to move him from the North Pole to the South" & "Since penguins can’t fly, Rudolph and his fellow reindeer will remain a crucial element to getting the job done on Christmas Eve."

Logistic problem: no reindeer on the South Pole ;-)

5oregonobsessionz
Déc 14, 2013, 1:59 am

>3 guido47: It seems unreasonable to expect a thoughtful discussion on this topic, but I thought some of the Heathens might enjoy the pretty fireworks.

6guido47
Déc 14, 2013, 2:04 am

In Aussie we would call you a shit stirrer BUT that isn't necessarily a bad thing :-)

7prosfilaes
Déc 14, 2013, 4:54 am

#2: The question was whether he was white and people of the Middle East are only sometimes, only marginally white, at least by American divisions, which are no more or less arbitrary in this sense then any other. I'm pretty if you said Mohammad was white, most people would say "well, he was Arab" and quite a few might say "no, he was an Arab", and unless you're cutting it too fine to say that Jesus was white, Jesus and Mohammad were the same race.

8jbbarret
Déc 14, 2013, 6:04 am

Peter Ustinov used to recall that at his school in London, when he was six years old, there was a large picture on the wall of a classroom with Jesus holding a boy scout by the hand. With the other hand Jesus was pointing out to the boy scout the extent of the British Empire on the map.

That settles it, doesn't it?

9guido47
Modifié : Déc 14, 2013, 6:22 am

But I do recall that once, when Ustinov was asked his colour (at some airport/passport application?possibly SA) he replied

Pink

ETA. I probably got the details of that story wrong. I would love to hear the right one.

10paradoxosalpha
Déc 14, 2013, 9:46 am

When I did door-to-door organizing in the early 1990s, some municipalities would require me and the canvassers I worked with to register individually (contrary to federal case law, but who's got the money to sue 'em over it?). When a registration form asked for my race, I consistently wrote "human," and more than once I was officially barred from canvassing for my honest response.

To the OP, here's my favorite response to date for Kelly's racist twaddle:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/12/1262236/--We-re-Not-White-Guys-Megyn-Ke...

11pinkozcat
Déc 14, 2013, 10:01 am

I love it ...

I've never been asked for my race but I am often asked for my occupation. As I am retired I always put "hedonist". Only one person has ever indicated that he knew what that was. He just grinned.

12theoria
Déc 14, 2013, 11:06 am

I thought the son of God was racially mixed.

13LolaWalser
Déc 14, 2013, 11:15 am

Sported a tan, that's for sure.

14theoria
Déc 14, 2013, 11:22 am

40 days in the desert will do that!

15LolaWalser
Déc 14, 2013, 11:25 am

16theoria
Déc 14, 2013, 11:26 am

Wait, Jesus was a hipster?

17LolaWalser
Déc 14, 2013, 11:28 am

More than that, a trend-setter.

18lilithcat
Déc 14, 2013, 11:39 am

If he was a hipster, where's the hat?

19oregonobsessionz
Déc 15, 2013, 11:19 pm

>10 paradoxosalpha:

Thanks for that link. That's an amazing reconstruction of the "old" St. Nick.

20pinkozcat
Déc 16, 2013, 5:12 am

As I understand it, from a book called The Bible as History, he was a zealot and a freedom fighter/terrorist (depending which side you were on) who wanted to get rid of the Romans and restore the old monarchy.

21quicksiva
Déc 16, 2013, 9:02 am

"Attention has often been called to the fact that those men of letters that were considered the purest representatives of the Greek spirit under the empire belonged almost without exception to Asia Minor, Syria or Egypt."
Cumont, Franz Valery Marie (2011-03-23). The Oriental Religions in Roman Paganism (pp. 10-11). . Kindle Edition.

22quicksiva
Déc 16, 2013, 9:35 am

>2 lilithcat:
"Jesus was Jewish, a Semite; ergo, Caucasian".

I have known two women who had Jewish mothers and black fathers. Both were raised as and considered Jews.
Both looked more Caucasian than the person in #16.

23BruceCoulson
Déc 16, 2013, 10:29 am

Oh, what nonsense! Take a look at the depictions of Santa; he's clearly a POLAR BEAR wearing a disguise made of the skins of naughty little girls and boys. He's large, roly-poly, and the reindeer are agreeing to fly him about to avoid being eaten.

Jesus was (most probably) semitic, and certainly heavily tanned. His hands would have been rough, and his arms well muscled (carpenter, remember?).

Alternatively, Jesus appears as whatever race the person viewing him is; a chameleon who is all races without being any race at all.

24androidlove
Modifié : Déc 16, 2013, 2:24 pm

I imagine the character Jesus being brown.

This article concludes with the reconstruction posted above.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_appearance_of_Jesus

The article also discusses the proposed races of Jesus. This article may explain the confusion.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2293301/Shape-shifting-Jesus-spen...

Santa is about as white as one can be.
http://infolocata.com/mirovia/irrefutable-proof-that-santa-is-odin/

25keristars
Déc 16, 2013, 2:58 pm

I'm not sure this is related, but someone linked to a 2005 article in the Guardian about when English people began to identify as "white" and linked it to a 1613 play wherein a Black King and Queen (via the trade of spices from India) called the people of England "white", and that prior to that "white" was only used for women of any color and English men may have thought of themselves as "golden"... http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2005/feb/19/theatre.race

I can't vouch for the accuracy of the article, but it did make this whole thing about Santa's whiteness more amusing.

26varielle
Déc 16, 2013, 8:51 pm

I wish I could remember where I saw this, but there was a recent article about how the typical individual of Jesus' era and place looked based on archaeological findings and DNA analysis of human remains. The average woman was about 4'10" the average man was 5'2"-5'4, 120-140 lbs., swarthy skinned, brown eyes, dark typically wavy hair, typically heavy body hair, thin nose and lips. If anybody can recall seeing this I would appreciate a link.

27Arctic-Stranger
Modifié : Déc 16, 2013, 9:58 pm

Excuse me, but I used to live about twenty miles north of North Pole. (North Pole, Alaska that is.)

If the general population of North Pole is any indication, Santa is definitely white, beats Ms. Claus, and the reindeer in his entourage are the ones he has not shot yet. The "only working one night a year" fits really well, and he probably spends the rest of his time cooking meth.

28Daithioc
Modifié : Déc 17, 2013, 2:52 am

As regards the details, so to speak, on how he was begot and/or how jesus was sired?....I am often brought back to one of the caustically funny comments from Hitchens regarding this prickly mystery.(paraphrased)

......."As for Mary, think about the odds of her really being a virgin OR that a Jewish mink would tell a lie..." lol.

29quicksiva
Déc 17, 2013, 12:13 pm

Is it possible that the many Africans in the Roman army managed to leave distorted tales of Osiris (the dark god), his solar barque, his role as the ultimate judge, and his red brother Set-Satan in the Forests of Northern Europe? Thoth, Osiris' scribe has always had the job of "making a list and checking it twice," as a glance at the 5,000 year old Egyptian Book of the Dead will show. Might the klapperbock be a memory of the monster Ammit who had the head of a crocodile. Maybe stories of a large flying boats with cattle and sheep seemingly in control would pass into the sub Artic solstice myths as a flying sled pulled by reindeer.

30quicksiva
Déc 17, 2013, 12:32 pm

While the pagan brush strokes of Norse mythology may have white-washed some of the traits of Santa Claus, there exists another brush stroke coloring Santa that bids our inspection.

“There is a little-known piece in the life of Santa that time and tradition has silently erased. Few people are aware that for most of his life, St. Nicholas (Sinter Klaas, Christkind, et. al.) had an unusual helper or companion. This mysterious sidekick had many names or aliases. He was known as Knecht Rupprecht; Pelznickle; Ru-Klas; Swarthy; Dark One; Dark Helper; Black Peter; Hans Trapp; Krampus; Grampus; Zwarte Piets; Furry Nicholas; Rough Nicholas; Schimmelreiter; Klapperbock; Julebuk; et. al.” wiki
Though his name changed, he was always there.
Some other well known titles given to St. Nick’s bizarre companion is 'a demon', 'evil one',' the devil' and 'Satan'. One of his dark duties was to punish children and "gleefully drag them to hell."

The following references are provided to demonstrate the "devil" who accompanies St. Nicholas is a well documented fact. In every forerunner of Santa this dark and diabolic character appears.
It is the Christkind who brings the presents, accompanied by one of its many devilish companions, Knecht Rupprecht, Pelznickle, Ru-Klas. . . (Del Re, Gerard and Patricia. The Christmas Almanack. New York: Random House, 2004, p. 70)

In many areas of Germany, Hans Trapp is the demon who accompanies Christkind on its gift-giving round. . . (Del Re, Gerard and Patricia. The Christmas Almanack. New York: Random House, 2004, p. 75)
Did Santa have a African ancestor? If not, how to explain the existence of this strange helper?
Another Christmas demon from lower Austria, Krampus or Grampus, accompanies St. Nicholas on December 25. (Del Re, Gerard and Patricia. The Christmas Almanack. New York: Random House, 2004, p. 94)

Like Santa, Sinterklaas and the Dark Helper were also supposed to have the peculiar habit of entering homes through the chimney. . . (Renterghem, Tony van. When Santa Was a Shaman. St. Paul: Llewellyn Publications, 1995, p. 102)
In Sarajevo in Bosnia, Saint Nickolas appears with gifts for the children in spite of the war and shelling. He is assisted by a small black devil who scares the children. (Renterghem, Tony van. When Santa Was a Shaman. St. Paul: Llewellyn Publications, 1995, p. 102)

Ruprecht here plays the part of bogeyman, a black, hairy, horned, cannibalistic, stick-carrying nightmare. His role and character are of unmitigated evil, the ultimate horror that could befall children who had been remiss in learning their prayers and doing their lessons. He was hell on earth. (Siefker, Phyllis. Santa Claus, Last of the Wild Men: The Origins and Evolution of Saint Nicholas. Jefferson: McFarland & Company, Inc., 1997, p. 155)

In Holland, Sinterklaas (Santa Claus) wore a red robe while riding a white horse and carried a bag of gifts to fill the children's stockings. A sinister assistant called Black Pete proceeded Sinterklaas in the Holland tradition to seek out the naughty boys and girls who would not receive gifts. ("History of Santa Claus," )

The Christian figure of Saint Nicholas replaced or incorporated various pagan gift-giving figures such as the Roman Befana and the Germanic Berchta and Knecht Ruprecht. . . He was depicted wearing a bishop's robes and was said to be accompanied at times by Black Peter, an elf whose job was to whip the naughty children.("Santa Claus" Microsoft Encarta Encyclopedia, 99)
Christmas historian Miles Clement relates that no "satisfactory account has yet been given" to the origins of these demons and devils that appear with St. Nicholas.

It can hardly be said that any satisfactory account has yet been given of the origins of this personage, or of his relation to St. Nicholas, Pelzmarte, and monstrous creatures like the Klapperbock. (Miles, Clement A. Christmas in Ritual and Tradition Christian and Pagan. New York: Frederick A. Stokes Company, 1912, p. 232)

In the long struggle towards the stars, one man’s prehistory has sometimes been another's Middle Kingdom.

31BruceCoulson
Déc 17, 2013, 1:35 pm

Seabury Quinn's Roads has an answer as to why Santa is so Norse.

32quicksiva
Déc 17, 2013, 7:29 pm

Well his momma was Black!

A Black Madonna or Black Virgin is a statue or painting of Mary in which she is depicted with dark skin, especially those created in Europe in the medieval period or earlier. In this specialized sense "Black Madonna" does not refer to images of the Virgin Mary portrayed as specifically ethnically black, which are popular in Africa and areas with large black populations, such as Brazil and the United States, but rather refers to all portrayals of the Virgin Mary with dark skin that were created during this time period; however, some scholars in the afrocentric and theosophical community believe that the Black Madonnas are black because they were a copy of the Egyptian Isis and Horus image that was both black and African. Wiki
The Black Madonnas are generally found in Catholic areas. The statues are mostly wooden but occasionally stone, often painted and up to 75 cm tall, generally dating from between the 11th and 15th centuries. They fall into two main groups: free-standing upright figures and seated figures on a throne. The pictures are usually icons which are Byzantine in style, often made in 13th or 14th century Italy. There are about 450–500 Black Madonnas in Europe, depending on how they are classified. There are at least 180 Vierges Noires in France, and there are hundreds of non-medieval copies as well. Some are in museums, but most are in churches or shrines and are venerated by devotees. A few are associated with miracles and attract substantial numbers of pilgrims.-Wiki

There can be no image of Our Lady so famous throughout the world as the Black Madonna of Czestochowa, Queen of Poland, who reigns from the Basilica in the Jasna Gora monastery that is the national shrine\. Its origins are, nevertheless, shrouded in some mystery. Her influence on the spirit of Polish independence since 1945 needs no comment. The painting was examined in 1952. It was found to be on lime-wood, not cypress as previously believed, and to have been restored by western painters in Byzantine style 1433, but ever since 1430 she has borne on her right cheek the ineffaceable sabre scars inflicted on her. She carries the Child on her left arm; he holds a closed book in his left hand.
Altered Images: Was an Egyptian Goddess transformed into the Virgin Mary? by Khepera Sadu Khu p.103.Altered Images by Khepera Sadu Khu p.103.

33quicksiva
Déc 17, 2013, 8:08 pm


"En adsum tuis commota, Luci, precibus, rerum naturae parens, elementorum omnium domina, saeculorum progenies initialis, summa numinum, regina manium, prima caelitum, deorum dearumque facies uniformis, quae cae Ii luminosa culmina, maris salubria flamina, inferum deplorata silentia nutibus meis dispenso; cuius numen unicum multiformi specie, ritu vario, nomine multiiugo totus veneratur orbis. Inde primigenii Phryges Pessinuntiam deum matrem, hinc autocthones Attici Cecropeiam Minervam, illinc fluctuantes Cyprii Paphiam Venerem, Cretes sagittiferi Dictynnam Dianam, Siculi trilingues Ortygiam Proserpinam, Eleusinii vetusti Actaeam Cererem, lunonem alii, Bellonam alii, Hecatam isti, Rhamnusiam illi, et qui nascentis dei Solis incohantibus illustrantur radiis Aethiopes Arique priscaque doctrina pollentes Aegyptii, caerimoniis me propriis percolentes, appellant vero nomine reginam Isidem.

"Behold, LUCIUS, moved by your prayers I have come, I am Nature, the universal Mother, mistress of all the elements, primordial child of time, sovereign of all things spiritual, queen of the dead, queen also of the immortals, the single manifestation of all gods and goddesses that are, with my nod I rule the starry heights of heaven,the health-giving breezes of the sea, and the plaintive silences of the underworld, I am worshiped in many aspects, known by countless names, and propitiated with all manner of different rites, yet the whole round earth venerates me, the Phrygians, first born of men, call me Mother of the Gods, the aboriginal races of Attica call me Cecropian Minerva, the sea-washed Cyprians call me Paphian Venus, the arrow-bearing Cretans call me Dictynna Diana, the trilingual Sicilians call me Ortygian Proserpine, the Eleusinians call me the ancient goddess Ceres, some call me Juno, some call me Bellona, some call me Hecate, and still others Rhamnusia, but those who are enlightened by the earliest rays of that divinity the sun each day, the Ethiopians, the Nubians and the Egyptians, who excel in ancient learning and worship me with ceremonies proper to my godhead, call me by my true name, namely Queen Isis."

Apuleius The Golden Ass, Book XI 155 C.E.

34quicksiva
Déc 17, 2013, 8:21 pm

18
If he was a hipster, where's the hat?
===========

They made him a crown. Didn't you read the book? ;)

35quicksiva
Déc 17, 2013, 8:29 pm


18
If he was a hipster, where's the hat?

==============

They made him a crown :

Sometime During Eternity

Sometime during eternity
some guys show up
and one of them
who shows up real late
is a kind of carpenter
from some square-type place
like Galilee
and he starts wailing
and claiming he is hep
to who made heaven
and earth
and that the cat
who really laid it on us
is his Dad

And moreover
he adds
It's all writ down
on some scroll-type parchments
which some henchmen
leave lying around the Dead Sea somewheres
a long time ago
and which you won't even find
for a coupla thousand years or so
or at least for
ninteen hundred and fortyseven
of them
to be exact
and even then
nobody really believes them
or me
for that matter

You're hot
they tell him

And they cool him

They stretch him on the Tree to cool
And everybody after that
is always making models
of this Tree
with Him hung up
and always crooning His name
and calling Him to come down
and sit in
on their combo
as if he is THE king cat
who's got to blow
or they can't quite make it

Only he don't come down
from His Tree

Him just hang there
on His Tree
looking real Petered out
and real cool
and also
according to a roundup
of late world news
from the usual unreliable sources
real dead


Lawrence Ferlinghetti

36Taphophile13
Déc 17, 2013, 11:21 pm

Didn't Jesus Christ Superstarhave a white Jesus, black Judas and Asian Mary Magdalene?

37paradoxosalpha
Déc 18, 2013, 10:54 am

> 36

Should've been a black Peter.

39Sandydog1
Déc 18, 2013, 4:07 pm

Of course. THAT's where I had heard about Black Peter!

40theoria
Déc 18, 2013, 5:45 pm

Slightly off topic, but:

"Despite what the preponderance of nativity scenes on display this time of year might suggest, it seems that there's actually a savior born on the regular here in the U.S. New research published in the British Medical Journal finds that roughly 1 in 200 pregnant young American women claim to be virgins." http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/12/18/_virgin_births_1_in_200_pregnant...

41keristars
Déc 18, 2013, 6:52 pm

40> That XX Factor blog briefly brings up the point that some women self-report as being virgins because they don't consider rape or other coerced sexual activity to be a form of virginity loss, but also -

I've seen one woman who swore up and down that she had never had penetrative sex and still got pregnant. Apparently she and her boyfriend were fooling around having fun without actual penetration, thinking that it was safe, but it was enough to lead to pregnancy. She said that she got pregnant extremely easily the next two times, when she was doing it on purpose, too.

The 1/200 seems a bit high for that kind of thing, but her story was plausible to me. (Ever since I heard it, I've been convinced that Mary & Joseph were bundling and doing something similar.)

42pinkozcat
Déc 18, 2013, 9:57 pm

I was in the maternity ward after giving birth to my oldest daughter and there was a girl there who actually got pregnant that way. She said that when she told her doctor that she couldn't possibly be pregnant because she was a virgin he gazed out the window. When she asked him what he was doing he told her that he was looking for the star ...

43.Monkey.
Déc 19, 2013, 3:30 am

>41 keristars:/42 Oh yeah, a little bit of cotton (or whathaveyou) does not stop fluids, and many young folks are far too ignorant on sex ed and don't understand this. In my own schools it was mentioned, but many places are all about the abstinence-only "teaching" and therefore kids have no idea what's going on.

44southernbooklady
Déc 19, 2013, 8:44 am

Well, I don't know about Jesus, but it turns out Santa is black.

45theoria
Déc 19, 2013, 12:17 pm

Polling data shows Americans are divided on Santa
http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/pdf/2013/PPP_Release_National_1219.pdf

When asked who would protect them from a War on Christmas, 42% select Obama, 40% Palin. Only 18% are unsure.

46Sandydog1
Modifié : Déc 19, 2013, 1:52 pm

44

We all know Santa can fly.

But I didn't realize he can also hook, fade, post, hitch, quick-out, dig, slant and corner!

47quicksiva
Déc 29, 2013, 7:40 am

The belief that a being part man and part god, has died and risen from the dead seems to have been in existence among the Egyptians for nearly six thousand years. By the first Dynasty, Osiris had become the representative par excellence of the earlier African man-god who had died and suffered mutilation and had risen from the dead. E.A. Wallis Budge, The Dwellers on the Nile:The Life,History, Religion and Literature of the Ancient Egyptians. pp. 225-6.

48pinkozcat
Modifié : Déc 29, 2013, 10:24 am


“Mithras and Mithraism
By Payam Nabaraz
Originally published at Lughnasa 1999

According to Persian traditions, the god Mithras was actually incarnated into the human form of the Saviour expected by Zarathustra. Mithras was born of Anahita, an immaculate virgin mother once worshipped as a fertility goddess before the hierarchical reformation. Anahita was said to have conceived the Saviour from the seed of Zarathustra preserved in the waters of Lake Hamun in the Persian province of Sistan. Mithra's ascension to heaven was said to have occurred in 208 B.C., 64 years after his birth. This birth took place in a cave or grotto, where shepherds attended him and regaled him with gifts, at the winter solstice.”

Sound familiar?

49Nicole_VanK
Déc 29, 2013, 1:49 pm

> 47: I won't claim to be an expert - I merely dabble in Egyptology. But actually, from what I understand, there is no certain mention of Osiris that early on.

http://www.gizapyramids.org/static/pdf%20library/bolshakov_cde_67_1992.pdf

50prosfilaes
Déc 29, 2013, 6:14 pm

#49: What, the word of an Egyptologist dead 80 years next year, who authored books the continued reprinting of annoys Egyptologists for their outdatedness (and I understand the better scholars weren't thrilled with them in his life), isn't good enough for you?

51paradoxosalpha
Déc 30, 2013, 11:44 am

> 49, 50

Budge is mostly useful for knowing what fin de siècle occultists would have known/thought about Egyptology. Not a trivial merit, for my purposes.

52prosfilaes
Déc 30, 2013, 12:55 pm

#51: Sure, but it would be nice if his books weren't so common. I see that more modern authors are starting to drive him out, but his books are still pretty much all in print and offered as factual volumes, not historical occultism.

53Nicole_VanK
Déc 30, 2013, 10:32 pm

>51 paradoxosalpha:: Agreed: his work is fascinating from that point of view.

54quicksiva
Déc 31, 2013, 8:48 am

Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie was a racist amateur whose only formal education was a University Extension Course in mathematics.
It was under the influence of the pyramidology theories of Prof. Piazzi Smyth that he went to Egypt in 1880 to survey the pyramids of Gizeh.

Wiki tells us that:
“He remains a controversial figure for his pro-eugenics views and opinions on other social topics, which spilled over into his disputes with the British Museum's Egyptology expert, E. A. Wallis Budge. Budge's contention that the religion of the Egyptians was essentially identical to the religions of the people of northeastern and central Africa was regarded by his colleagues as impossible, since all but a few followed Petrie in his contention that the culture of Ancient Egypt was derived from an invading Caucasian "Dynastic Race" which had conquered Egypt in late prehistory and introduced the Pharaonic culture (Trigger, 1994). Petrie was a dedicated follower of eugenics, believing that there was no such thing as cultural or social innovation in human society, but rather that all social change is the result of biological change, such as migration and foreign conquest resulting in interbreeding. Petrie claimed that his "Dynastic Race", in which he never ceased to believe, was a "fine" Caucasian race that entered Egypt from the south in late predynastic times, conquered the "inferior" and "exhausted" "mulatto" race then inhabiting Egypt, and slowly introduced the finer Dynastic civilization as they interbred with the inferior indigenous people (Silberman, 1999). Petrie, who was also affiliated with a variety of far right-wing groups and anti-democratic thought in England and was a dedicated believer in the superiority of the Northern peoples over the Latinate and Southern peoples (Silberman, 1999), derided Budge's belief that the ancient Egyptians were an African people with roots in eastern Africa as impossible and "unscientific", as did his followers.”

However Flinders Petrie did give us this:

“How far Egypt in its earlier days had influenced the faiths of other countries we cannot trace, owing to our ignorance of the early civilisations of the world. But in the later times the extension of the popular religion of Egypt can only be paralleled by the spread of Christianity or Islam. Isis was worshipped in Greece in the fourth century B.C., and in Italy in the second century. Soon after she won her way into official recognition by Sulla, and immediately after the death of Julius a temple to Isis was actually erected by the government. Once firmly established in Rome, the spread of Imperial power carried her worship over the world; emperors became her priests, and the humble centurion in remote camps honoured her in the wilds of France, Germany, Yorkshire, or the Sahara. Not only Isis but also Osiris claimed the world's worship. In the new form of the Osir-hapi of Memphis, or Serapis, the Ptolemies identified him with Zeus, both in appearance and by attributes. And, by the time of Nero, Isis and Osiris were said to be the deities of all the world. An interesting outline of this subject will be found in Professor Dill's Roman Society from Nero to Aurelius. Besides these parent gods their son Horus also conquered the world with them. Isis and Horus, the Queen of Heaven and the Holy Child, became the popular deities of the later age of Egypt, and their figures far outnumber those of all other gods. Horus in every form of infancy was the loved bambino of the Egyptian women. Again Horus appears carried on the arm of his mother in for the Syrian maid became transformed into an entirely different figure, Queen of Heaven, Mother of God, patroness of sailors, occupying the position and attributes already belonging to the world-wide goddess; and the Divine Teacher, the Man of Sorrows, became transformed into the entirely different figure of the Potent Child. Isis and Horus still ruled the affections and worship of Europe with a change of names.”

Petrie, Sir W. M. Flinders (William Matthew Flinders) (2009-10-04). The Religion of Ancient Egypt . Public Domain Books. Kindle Edition.

55prosfilaes
Déc 31, 2013, 1:47 pm

#54: Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie was a racist amateur...

Since Petrie wasn't mentioned before that post, that doesn't seem a relevant way to open a message. I don't find works on Egyptology written a hundred years ago reliable sources of information, no matter who wrote them.

56Nicole_VanK
Jan 1, 2014, 1:43 am

Yes. Though I appreciate Petrie for being one of the first to take a serious interest in Pre- and Early Dynastic Egypt, his work is dated too.

57quicksiva
Jan 1, 2014, 7:11 am

A great Catholic scholar has recently written:

"It is always difficult to be objective about the life of the founder of a great religion. His personality is blurred by an aura of the miraculous, enhanced inevitably by the needs of the believers to, above all, believe. The earliest biographers, those closest to the time of his life, are preoccupied not with historical facts, but with glorifying in every way the memory of one they believe to have been a Messenger of God or even God himself. The result is a rich accretion of myth and miracle, mysterious portents and heavenly signs, of residues from other religions and religious traditions. These early biographies cannot pass as history; only the propaganda of an expanding faith. It is the task of the historian to locate and explicate the truth that lies behind the myth, to reconstruct the events of a real, as distinct from a symbolic, life. At the root of the effort rests the historians faith that the task can be accomplished at all. This book is the result of more than thirty years of study and writing about the world of antiquity, a world that changed markedly with the coming of Jesus Christ. I cannot say with any exactitude just when it was that I began to realize that some of the religious beliefs which heretofore I had associated with my own Catholic faith bore a remarkable similarity to those developed by Egyptian theologians more than two millennia before Jesus appeared on the stage of history. Or when I first became aware of the remarkable intellectual integration with which Egyptian priests thought and wrote about such subjects as creation, the soul, resurrection, judgement beyond the grave, and eternal life. Egyptian thinking on these subjects appeared to me to be theologically indistinguishable from the beliefs that formed the core of my own religious faith, a faith that held that Christianity was a singular historical event without human precedent."

Richard Gabriel (2005-04-12). Jesus The Egyptian: The Origins of Christianity And The Psychology of Christ (Kindle Locations 76-89). iUniverse. Kindle Edition.

58keristars
Jan 1, 2014, 2:41 pm

Egyptian thinking on these subjects appeared to me to be theologically indistinguishable from the beliefs that formed the core of my own religious faith, a faith that held that Christianity was a singular historical event without human precedent.

Ha. That's something that was strongly suggested in my religion classes at Catholic school - that a lot of world religions prior to Jesus were still okay because they were trying to get at the Truth, they just didn't have the Word of God to help them get there all the way.

But seeing that and similarities was one of the things that made me a heathen, eventually. Seems you're like Gabriel or my texts and embrace it as all part of one truth, or you look at it as wishful nonsense and toss the whole lot, like I did.

59quicksiva
Jan 5, 2014, 7:21 am

Budge, E.A. Wallis A Partial Bibliography:

-- Amulets and Superstitions, Dover, 1978.
—The Book of the Dead: The Chapters of Coming Forth by Day, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., London, 1898.
The Book of The Dead: The Chapters of Coming Forth by Day, Kessinger, 2006.
The Book of the Dead: An English Translation of the Chapters, Hymns, Etc, of the Theban Recension, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London, 1899.
The Book of the Dead: The Hieroglyphic Transcript of the Papyrus of Ani, Kessinger, 2003.
—The Book of the Kings of Egypt, I & II, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trübner & Co., 1908.
The Book of Opening the Mouth, Ayer Company, NH, 1984.
A Catalogue of the Egyptian Collection in the Fitzwilliam Museum Cambridge, Kessinger Publishing, 2004.
—Cook’s Handbook for Egypt and the Sudan, Part 2, Kessinger, 2003.
—The Decrees of Memphis and Canopus, III, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., 1904.
The Dwellers on the Nile, Kessinger, 2003.
—The Egyptian Book of the Dead, Dover, New York, 1967.
—The Egyptian Book of the Dead, Routledge, 1984.
The Egyptian Heaven and Hell, III, Kessinger, 2004.
An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Reading Book, Courier Dover, 1993.
Egyptian Ideas of the Future Life, Kessinger, 2004.
Egyptian Literature, II, Kegan Paul, 1912.
An Egyptian Reading Book for Beginners, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co, London, 1896.
Egyptian Religion, Citadel Press, 1991.
—The Egyptian Sudan, Its History and Monuments, II, Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner & Co., London, 1907
. —Egyptian Tales and Romances, Kessinger, 2003.
—Egypt Under the Great Pyramid Builders, Kessinger, 2004.
First Steps in Egyptian: A Book for Beginners, Health Research, 1996.
—From Fetish to God in Ancient Egypt, Dover, 1988.
—The Gods of the Egyptians or Studies in Egyptian Mythology, vol. 2, Adamant Media, 2001.
A Guide to the First and Second Egyptian Rooms, British Museum, 1904.
A Guide to the Egyptian Galleries, British Museum, 1909.
A Hieroglyphic Vocabulary to the Book of the Dead, Dover, NY, 1991.
A History of Egypt from the End of the Neolithic Period, Henry Frowde, NY, 1902.
An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, Dover, NY, 1978.
An Introduction to Ancient Egyptian Literature, Courier Dover, 1997.
The Kebra Nagast, Cosimo Classics, NY, 2004.
Legends of the Egyptian Gods: Hieroglyphic Texts and Translations, Courier Dover, 1994.
Legends of the Gods, Kegan, Paul, London, 1912.
—Legends of Our Lady Mary the Perpetual Virgin and Her Mother Hanna, The Medici Society, 1922.
Literature of the Ancient Egyptians, Kessinger, 2003.
The Mummy: Chapters on Egyptian Funereal Archaeology, Cambridge University Press, 1894.
The Mummy: Chapters on Egyptian Funereal Archaeology, Biblo & Tannen, 1994
—The Mummy: A Handbook of Egyptian Funerary Archaeology, Biblo & Tannen, 1964.
—The Mummy: A Handbook of Egyptian Funerary Archaeology, Kessinger, 2003.
—The Nile: Notes for Travellers in Egypt, T. Cook & Son, 1907.
The Papyrus of Ani, G.P. Putnam’s Sons, London, 1913.
Of the Future Life: Egyptian Religion, Kessinger, 2005.
—On the Hieratic Papyrus of Nesi-Amsu, Kessinger, 2006.
Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, I, Courier Dover, 1973
. —Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, II, Kessinger, 2003.
Osiris and the Egyptian Resurrection, University Books, NY, 1961.
Papyrus of Ani: Egyptian Book of the Dead, NuVision Publications, 2007.
—The Sarcophagus of Ānchnesrāneferab, Queen of Ahmes II, Whiting & Co., London, 1885.
A Short History of the Egyptian People, Kessinger, 2003.

60Nicole_VanK
Modifié : Jan 5, 2014, 11:47 am

That's what we're talking about: heavily (out)dated stuff still being in print - as if they were still 'state of the art'. It's sad.* (By the way, there are many more editions of some of his works.)

* Would you trust your doctor if (s)he relied on 19th century procedures?

61androidlove
Jan 5, 2014, 12:43 pm

>57 quicksiva:
Here is a review on Amazon of Jesus The Egyptian.

"R. Gabriel is not the only one to have commented on the similarities of Christianity and that of the Egyptians. The Ideas of creation, judgement, resurrection were held in common with many of the ancients even before Egypt. Long before Gabriel was Gerald Massey who saw in Egypt many of the same ideas and had made similar comments. WE MUST NOT confuse the origins of Christianity with this early culture. Egypt may have Enshrined these ideas but they are not the origin of these ideas. In fact had any of the above authors read the Books of Moses & Abraham they would have learned that the origins of Christianity began not with the Egyptains but rather it began with the first person who was taught of Jesus, which was Adam. The very first man, Adam, believed, saw, prophesied, and learned about Jesus Christ long long before the Egyptians got the idea of say an Osiris figure. In fact the Egyptians did everything, according to the Book of Abraham, to "IMITATE" the order of things after the first generations, which go back to Adam. No one is denighing the similarites as there should be between the two systems but the Egyptians are hardly the origin of Jesus or Christianity. THis book is unintentionaly misleading becuase it has overlooked the Books of Moses & Abraham."

I've come to realize that it's very difficult to win at mind games. How does one beat, "I believe. Therefore, I believe"?

62pinkozcat
Jan 5, 2014, 8:05 pm

Adam? The one who was cast out of the Garden of Eden because he discovered sex? Oh, dear!

63tomcatMurr
Jan 8, 2014, 6:00 am

How does one beat, "I believe. Therefore, I believe"?

with a very big stick? a baseball bat?

64Nicole_VanK
Jan 8, 2014, 6:17 am

Four aces?

65kassetra
Jan 8, 2014, 11:01 pm

61 -

Wow. That's more than a standard ass pull... that's a full-fledged retcon right there.

And we've ALWAYS been at war with Eastasia.

66theoria
Jan 18, 2014, 10:57 pm

67PedrBran
Modifié : Mai 28, 2014, 8:59 pm

Ce message a été signalé par plusieurs utilisateurs et n'est plus affiché. (afficher)
You do get that Jesus's death and crucifixion as narrated in the gospels is a Roman ludibrium?...you do get that right? I mean do any of you have a classical education? What are you fucking retards? Only an ignorarmus would take it as historically accurate.

(yeah...I went there...deal with it ).