Wolf Hall Tutored Read: Wherein Chatterbox undertakes to lead Miela through the tangled worlds of He
Discussions75 Books Challenge for 2013
Rejoignez LibraryThing pour poster.
Ce sujet est actuellement indiqué comme "en sommeil"—le dernier message date de plus de 90 jours. Vous pouvez le réveiller en postant une réponse.
1Chatterbox
Greetings, all! At Miela's request, I'm back to do another tutored read of Wolf Hall, as she undertakes to read Hilary Mantel's wonderful novel about the scheming and politicking and religious quarrels during the reign of Henry VIII.
As before, anyone is welcome to chip in with their own answers to her questions, and to follow along as we work our way through the book. But, as always with tutored reads, this is for the "tutee's" benefit, so it will be Miela who decides how fast (or slowly!) we move, and whether she is OK with other people chipping in with their own questions from time to time. One reminder: keep the discussion on focus, and no spoilers, please! Those of us who have read the book (or know the history) may have an idea of where it's heading, but please let Miela discover it for herself.
Some preliminary notes mostly lifted from last summer's discussion with Smiler69/Ilana:
The key things to know, IMO, about Henry are that he is only the second Tudor to sit on the throne, and that his own father had to fight off several actual or implicit threats to his right to rule from various Plantagenets. In many ways, some of Henry's nobles have a greater right to the throne than he does, at least when it comes to his father's side (the taint of bastardy on both his paternal grandmother's and grandfather's side....) So he feels insecure, and that's one of the reasons why an heir becomes so vital, and the quest for that legitimate heir becomes so all-consuming. (There has been endless debate over whether the reason he was ready to turn the world upside down was his obsession with Anne or the need for an heir; my own theory is that they combined themselves quite neatly at a time it was clear his existing queen was too old to give him another child, and yet might live on for decades.)
This is all made more acute by the fact that the Tudors had a rather tenuous claim to the throne in the first place. I detailed this in the original tutored read in probably exasperating detail (http://www.librarything.com/topic/137481), but it boils down to the fact that Henry VII, Henry's father, won the throne by right of conquest, beating Richard III at the battle of Bosworth. (Richard's body was only just found this year, under a car park...) On his father's side, Henry VII was descended from the children of a mesalliance between Catherine de Valois, the French princess and widow of Henry V, and Catherine's attendant, Welsh-born Owen Tudor. The children of this relationship were legally bastards, and when their half brother, Henry VI, legitimized them, it was clear that they had no claim to the English throne. On Henry VII's mother's side, the picture is more blurry still. She was the last surviving Beaufort: her ancestor was the illegitimate grandchild of Edward III, via one of his elder sons. Again, the children of that relationship were later legitimized but with the important caveat that they couldn't inherit the throne. So on any number of fronts, the Tudors were less than impressive candidates to reign -- descent via two illegitimate relationships, specifically barred from the throne, descent via women, etc. That's why Henry VII married the daughter of Edward IV, Elizabeth of York, to consolidate his claim --- and that's how the Tudor Rose, symbolizing the union of the two rival families that had divided England for the last half century or so, was born. But from the outset, there were challengers from the Yorkist faction, and remained so into Henry VIII's day. So he grows to maturity knowing/feeling that he is vulnerable: the lack of a male heir makes him still more so.
Also important is the time period in which Henry is born -- it's the late Renaissance, and a time of relative peace, so he is able to grow up as a scholar prince, known for the agility of his mind and his talent for music as much for his physical appearance. (He was notably tall for his day, and extremely handsome as a young man; a replica of his grandfather, Edward IV.) So, by the time he is in middle age -- roughly the time Cromwell first moves into his immediate circle -- he is a vain man accustomed to adulation, yet someone who has been denied the very thing he knows he needs most -- a legitimate male heir. The religion is just the icing on the cake -- the arrival of Lutheranism -- to which Henry never subscribed -- simply makes it more possible for Henry to reject the Pope's authority. Prior monarchs had been excommunicated and their whole country put under the "interdict"; by 1533, Henry shrugs that off, and I think it's at least in part because Luther has demonstrated that the Pope isn't the only route to God. Henry may reject Luther, but Luther's rejection of the Pope has been useful in unveiling a way for Henry to get his own way.
Another important theme to realize is that it is really during the Tudor era that social mobility becomes possible. Yes, there had been isolated cases of relatively low-born individuals rising to power through the church (with one big example being Thomas Becket), but throughout the Plantagenet era, being of good or noble birth was significant. It remained so, of course, but there was considerably more social mobility, and Thomas Cromwell, the focus of Mantel's books, is a prime beneficiary of that. Unlike Thomas More, the son of a lawyer, Cromwell is the son of a blacksmith. This meant he was looked down upon by the nobles surrounding Henry, even as his abilities ensured his advancement. At this time, men of all kinds were accumulating wealth, and increasingly it would be wealth and talent -- ultimately allied with birth through strategic marriages -- that would forge the next generation of "nobility" in England. Think of Bess of Hardwick, a slightly older contemporary of Elizabeth I, whose first marriage to a wealthy knight who made his money at Henry VIII's court brought her tremendous prosperity. She later married the Earl of Shrewsbury; her descendants include the dukes of Devonshire and Newcastle. Thomas Cromwell is a beneficiary of these changes -- but he still must work within the old system. Thomas Wolsey, his mentor, rises the traditional way -- through the church -- but Cromwell is the first of a new generation of upwardly mobile strivers. When reading, keep an eye on his conflict with the old nobility and landed gentry who remain Henry's closest friends.
Here endeth the background. I'll be standing by to wait for Miela's first round of questions!
As before, anyone is welcome to chip in with their own answers to her questions, and to follow along as we work our way through the book. But, as always with tutored reads, this is for the "tutee's" benefit, so it will be Miela who decides how fast (or slowly!) we move, and whether she is OK with other people chipping in with their own questions from time to time. One reminder: keep the discussion on focus, and no spoilers, please! Those of us who have read the book (or know the history) may have an idea of where it's heading, but please let Miela discover it for herself.
Some preliminary notes mostly lifted from last summer's discussion with Smiler69/Ilana:
The key things to know, IMO, about Henry are that he is only the second Tudor to sit on the throne, and that his own father had to fight off several actual or implicit threats to his right to rule from various Plantagenets. In many ways, some of Henry's nobles have a greater right to the throne than he does, at least when it comes to his father's side (the taint of bastardy on both his paternal grandmother's and grandfather's side....) So he feels insecure, and that's one of the reasons why an heir becomes so vital, and the quest for that legitimate heir becomes so all-consuming. (There has been endless debate over whether the reason he was ready to turn the world upside down was his obsession with Anne or the need for an heir; my own theory is that they combined themselves quite neatly at a time it was clear his existing queen was too old to give him another child, and yet might live on for decades.)
This is all made more acute by the fact that the Tudors had a rather tenuous claim to the throne in the first place. I detailed this in the original tutored read in probably exasperating detail (http://www.librarything.com/topic/137481), but it boils down to the fact that Henry VII, Henry's father, won the throne by right of conquest, beating Richard III at the battle of Bosworth. (Richard's body was only just found this year, under a car park...) On his father's side, Henry VII was descended from the children of a mesalliance between Catherine de Valois, the French princess and widow of Henry V, and Catherine's attendant, Welsh-born Owen Tudor. The children of this relationship were legally bastards, and when their half brother, Henry VI, legitimized them, it was clear that they had no claim to the English throne. On Henry VII's mother's side, the picture is more blurry still. She was the last surviving Beaufort: her ancestor was the illegitimate grandchild of Edward III, via one of his elder sons. Again, the children of that relationship were later legitimized but with the important caveat that they couldn't inherit the throne. So on any number of fronts, the Tudors were less than impressive candidates to reign -- descent via two illegitimate relationships, specifically barred from the throne, descent via women, etc. That's why Henry VII married the daughter of Edward IV, Elizabeth of York, to consolidate his claim --- and that's how the Tudor Rose, symbolizing the union of the two rival families that had divided England for the last half century or so, was born. But from the outset, there were challengers from the Yorkist faction, and remained so into Henry VIII's day. So he grows to maturity knowing/feeling that he is vulnerable: the lack of a male heir makes him still more so.
Also important is the time period in which Henry is born -- it's the late Renaissance, and a time of relative peace, so he is able to grow up as a scholar prince, known for the agility of his mind and his talent for music as much for his physical appearance. (He was notably tall for his day, and extremely handsome as a young man; a replica of his grandfather, Edward IV.) So, by the time he is in middle age -- roughly the time Cromwell first moves into his immediate circle -- he is a vain man accustomed to adulation, yet someone who has been denied the very thing he knows he needs most -- a legitimate male heir. The religion is just the icing on the cake -- the arrival of Lutheranism -- to which Henry never subscribed -- simply makes it more possible for Henry to reject the Pope's authority. Prior monarchs had been excommunicated and their whole country put under the "interdict"; by 1533, Henry shrugs that off, and I think it's at least in part because Luther has demonstrated that the Pope isn't the only route to God. Henry may reject Luther, but Luther's rejection of the Pope has been useful in unveiling a way for Henry to get his own way.
Another important theme to realize is that it is really during the Tudor era that social mobility becomes possible. Yes, there had been isolated cases of relatively low-born individuals rising to power through the church (with one big example being Thomas Becket), but throughout the Plantagenet era, being of good or noble birth was significant. It remained so, of course, but there was considerably more social mobility, and Thomas Cromwell, the focus of Mantel's books, is a prime beneficiary of that. Unlike Thomas More, the son of a lawyer, Cromwell is the son of a blacksmith. This meant he was looked down upon by the nobles surrounding Henry, even as his abilities ensured his advancement. At this time, men of all kinds were accumulating wealth, and increasingly it would be wealth and talent -- ultimately allied with birth through strategic marriages -- that would forge the next generation of "nobility" in England. Think of Bess of Hardwick, a slightly older contemporary of Elizabeth I, whose first marriage to a wealthy knight who made his money at Henry VIII's court brought her tremendous prosperity. She later married the Earl of Shrewsbury; her descendants include the dukes of Devonshire and Newcastle. Thomas Cromwell is a beneficiary of these changes -- but he still must work within the old system. Thomas Wolsey, his mentor, rises the traditional way -- through the church -- but Cromwell is the first of a new generation of upwardly mobile strivers. When reading, keep an eye on his conflict with the old nobility and landed gentry who remain Henry's closest friends.
Here endeth the background. I'll be standing by to wait for Miela's first round of questions!
2Diane-bpcb
What happened to this interesting-sounding topic?
