Representation of women in the media, stage back and front

DiscussionsFeminist Theory

Rejoignez LibraryThing pour poster.

Representation of women in the media, stage back and front

Ce sujet est actuellement indiqué comme "en sommeil"—le dernier message date de plus de 90 jours. Vous pouvez le réveiller en postant une réponse.

1LolaWalser
Juin 15, 2013, 12:27 pm

I pretty much don't watch TV or go to the (new) movies, so some numbers about women in the entertainment industry (US data mostly) came as a bit of a shock--more than 80% of various "deciders" are male, only about 16% of "leading" type roles go to women etc. This has been on my mind following a burst of debates on whether the new Doctor (the lead in BBC's "Doctor Who" show, who has so far "regenerated" eleven times into a white male with sexy girl sidekicks) could be "ethnic" or even, god forbid, a WOMAN. (If anyone wants a quick course in sexism and misogyny du jour, served with liberal doses of racism, look no further...)

Now here's another article about the situation in the movies (US again):

At The Movies, The Women Are Gone

I live in the D.C. metro area, which is a very good place to find films. If you don't live in New York or Los Angeles, it's about the best you can do. I'm within 10 miles of a multiplicity of multiplexes, not to mention four theaters I would consider "art house" theaters or at least mixes of wider-appeal fare and smaller stuff.

According to Fandango and some back-of-the-envelope math, excluding documentaries and animation, there are 617 movie showings today — that's just today, Friday — within 10 miles of my house.

Of those 617 showings, 561 of them — 90 percent — are stories about men or groups of men, where women play supporting roles or fill out ensembles primarily focused on men. (...)

I want to stress this again: In many, many parts of the country right now, if you want to go to see a movie in the theater and see a current movie about a woman — any story about any woman that isn't a documentary or a cartoon — you can't. You cannot. There are not any. You cannot take yourself to one, take your friend to one, take your daughter to one.

There are not any.

By far your best shot, numbers-wise, at finding one that's at least even-handedly featuring a man and a woman is Before Midnight (at 891 theaters) so I hope you like it. Because it's pretty much that or a solid, impenetrable wall of movies about dudes.

Dudes in capes, dudes in cars, dudes in space, dudes drinking, dudes smoking, dudes doing magic tricks, dudes being funny, dudes being dramatic, dudes flying through the air, dudes blowing up, dudes getting killed, dudes saving and kissing women and children, and dudes glowering at each other.



I'd only add that I doubt most of these stories are "about" men in any meaningful way that would preclude women being cast in the same or similar roles, telling the same or similar stories.

2Amtep
Modifié : Juin 15, 2013, 2:25 pm

I don't go to movies anymore either, but I was curious so I checked the "now playing" list for the big theater chain here in Helsinki. Keep in mind that I haven't seen any of them; I'm going by descriptions and stuff I find on wikipedia and IMDB.

Stories about women (2):
8-pallo (8-ball) - This is a finnish crime drama. I think it's about a woman because a female actor has the lead credit and most of the gallery photos show her on screen.
Spring Breakers - Comedy about four women and one man.

Stories about men (8):
After Earth
Django Unchained
Fast & Furious 6
Only God Forgives
Silver Linings Playbook
Star Trek Into Darkness
The Great Gatsby
The Hangover Part III

Stories about hetero couples (4):
I Give it a Year
Rec: Genesis
Scary Movie 5
The Big Wedding
It looks like both partners have significant roles in these.

Unclear (1):
Evil Dead - This is a remake of the 1981 cult classic. It's about a mixed group but if it's anything like the original then the women are mostly there to serve as love interests and die horribly.

It's a small sample, but I wouldn't say women are gone. Perhaps Finland is simply behind the trend though...

3LolaWalser
Juin 15, 2013, 3:44 pm

As you say, small sample, but surely 2 vs. 8 is a pretty big difference!

4Amtep
Juin 16, 2013, 7:11 am

Yeah but is it going up or down? (I honestly don't know; my memory of previous decades is probably biased)

I looked up the the top grossing movies of 2012 and it does have Hunger Games at #3 and a Twilight movie at #6. That has potential because I expect the top grossing movies from one year will set a trend for future years. But yeah if you look at the whole list, it looks like 10 or 20%.

As a spot check I looked at the list for 1982, and the first one I found was Annie at #10, then nothing until Sophie's Choice at #24. So perhaps it's going up?

I'm trying to resist the urge to go classify 5000 movies just to get real data :) (Deciding about individual movies can be controversial, anyway. One of my favorite movies is Léon, marketed in the US as The Professional. It's presented as being about Léon, and his face is on the posters and the movie is named after him, but I think the story is really about Mathilda.)

5Amtep
Modifié : Juin 16, 2013, 9:51 am

Ce message a été supprimé par son auteur

6mabith
Juin 25, 2013, 11:52 am

Do the Twilight movies even pass the Bechdel test? It's all pretty disheartening.

I've been so much happier now that my mom and I take one evening a week to watch a non-English language film from Netflix. I can't express how much nicer it is to watch movies where the actors look like average men and women. Still very attractive, but a 40 year old mum looks like a 40 year old mum and not a 25 year old model. It is SO much more enjoyable. They're not all movies that focus on women (or pass the Bechdel test, necessarily) but we've watched so many great ones lately that I've just picked at random (warning: Netflix's descriptions are often rather off). If anyone has Netflix and wants some recommendations, let me know!

I just honestly didn't think seeing actors who look like average people would much such a difference to my reaction to the film, but it does.

7Trismegistus
Juin 25, 2013, 10:01 pm

On a related note, here's a series of line graphs charting male cinema leads' ages versus those of their female love interests. It's about what you might expect.

Of course these are only half the story and I'd be interested in seeing the flip side charting the ages of female leads' and their romantic interests. That said, I bet they'd track much more closely than the men's.

8LolaWalser
Sep 20, 2013, 4:02 pm

Saudi Arabia's First Feature-Length Film Was Directed by a Woman

...the Saudi government approved the project, in part because a woman making a feature-length film in the country was so staggeringly unprecedented that there simply wasn't a rule against it. {...}

Al Mansour was sometimes forced to direct the cast and crew over the phone due to Saudi restrictions on men and women mingling and working together in public space. Using a walkie-talkie, she directed certain scenes while sequestered in the back of a van so she wouldn't be seen giving orders to her male crew members.


The movie is about a little girl who wants a bicycle, presumably to ride it--a transgressive wish in that thoroughly fucked-up country.

9avaland
Oct 8, 2013, 5:06 pm

Lola, I'm late to the discussion, but I appreciate you getting one started (so I can read it now in October! :-)

I heard a piece on NPR about movies and how it seems that nearly all are now aimed at 15 year old boys (and all in imax or 3D because that what runs in the Chinese theaters---who knew?). They discussed the fact that the good drama is all on television now, the longer episodic form being more conducive for it anyway. So, the question is whether the percentages would differ very much in television drama. And that I can't answer, but I have been pleased with some things.

I watch Mad Men which, of course, is set in the 1960s, and is about the rise and fall of creative advertising whiz Donald Draper (I like to think of this show as the US version of Downton Abbey, ha ha). But quite honestly, the most interesting characters are the women. A couple of my grown children watch this also, and it has sparked some great conversations.

"Top of the Lake" is a New Zealand mini-series created by Jane Campion consisting of 10 episodes (shown in the US on the Sundance Channel). I can't tell you how good this haunting, complex story is. Starring Elizabeth Moss -- and she is spectacular in it.

Does anyone watch "The Good Wife" and is it any good?

10mabith
Oct 8, 2013, 5:52 pm

"Top of the Lake" is also on Netflix! Glad to hear it's good, I've been thinking of watching it.

The SyFy Channels shows "Warehouse 13" and "Eureka" are both really excellent in regards to having lots of well-rounded female characters. Eureka especially (Warehouse 13 just has a smaller regular cast) is chock full of women in positions of power who are also mostly scientists.

11sweetiegherkin
Oct 11, 2013, 9:53 pm

> 9 That's an interesting thought about the better drama being saved for TV these days. I don't watch a ton of mainstream movies, so I still find a good amount of drama in the indie(-ish) films I watch. Agreed though that it makes sense that certain issues *can* (but are not always) be explored when given longer time periods such as a TV season (or several) rather than the 1-3 hours timeframe of a movie.

Also agreed on Mad Men - I'm late to the game in watching that show because I thought I wouldn't like it (in part thinking that it might be too chauvinistic). It is definitely about plenty of other characters besides Don, and the female characters make up a lot of the show. The chauvinism in the show is usually done in such a way that you are meant to be disgusted by it.

A couple of non-U.S. shows you'll find on Netflix that were recommended to me and I found worthwhile:
- Bomb Girls, a Canadian show about a WWII-era munitions factory in Ontario largely run by women. Covers all kinds of dramatic issues including war (obviously), double standards, hidden identities, fanatical fathers, in-the-closet homosexuality, ethnic and gender discrimination, unrequited love, strained marriage, affairs, unexpected pregnancy, you name it. It's not my favorite show of all time or anything, but I find it pretty compelling.
- The Fall, a U.K. show set in Belfast, Ireland where a string of high-profile murders have occurred. A Londoner police official (played by Gillian Anderson) is called in to help close the case. It's very different from the usual police procedurals I'm used to seeing in the U.S. Rather than a new crime/criminal each week, the show takes its times to unravel the plot and fully develop each character. I also like that Anderson's character is rather cold and detached but it's not the usual "she's-a-woman-in-power-so-obviously-she's-a-total-bitch" kind of vibe. It's rather that she's very good at her job because she is not the stereotypical overly emotional woman. It's a refreshing change.

12LolaWalser
Oct 10, 2014, 10:57 am

A follow-up on >8 LolaWalser:, about the first Saudi film: saw it, liked it, although deeply saddened by the situation it depicts. Anyone else?

Give it a look if you can: "Wadjda".

13southernbooklady
Mar 4, 2015, 10:39 am

Closing the TV Guest Gender Gap

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/03/how-to-get-more-women-o...

Our first 10 guests for our first 5 shows were all men. And frankly, they were all good guests to have. But it made me realize we shouldn't simply be asking, "Is this person interesting enough to bring on our air?" Rather, a longer question was required: "Is this person interesting enough to bring on our air, knowing that if the person is a man, he'll be taking a woman's place?"

14LolaWalser
Mai 13, 2015, 9:23 am

A.C.L.U., Citing Bias Against Women, Wants Inquiry Into Hollywood’s Hiring Practices

Grumblings that Hollywood is a man’s world have percolated for decades and are borne out in studies that show how few women are hired to direct top-grossing films: only 4 percent over the last dozen years. Now this apparent truism is being challenged as a violation of civil rights.

On Tuesday the American Civil Liberties Union will ask state and federal agencies to investigate the hiring practices of Hollywood’s major studios, networks and talent agencies, and possibly bring charges against them, for what the organization described as rampant and intentional gender discrimination in recruiting and hiring female directors.

15LolaWalser
Modifié : Mai 13, 2015, 9:38 am

GRUMBLE

16LolaWalser
Mai 13, 2015, 11:50 am

“I don’t know why you choose to live with sexism. I know lots of women who don’t notice it.”
— said to me by a male production manager
(via shitpeoplesaytowomendirectors)

17mabith
Mai 13, 2015, 12:24 pm

Oh yeah, it's totally a choice to "live with sexism" because there's always the option of lala land and ignoring the fact that our struggles are not all equal. Gross.

18sturlington
Mai 13, 2015, 12:34 pm

>16 LolaWalser: Thanks for posting that. Here is a sister blog that's of interest to us readers: http://spstww.tumblr.com/

Also read this piece on how women writers are treated in comparison to men in the NYT today by Cheryl Strayed: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/books/review/is-there-a-double-standard-for-ju...

19LolaWalser
Mai 13, 2015, 2:08 pm

>17 mabith:

Basically he told her to shut up, didn't he.

>18 sturlington:

Outside rote genre writing it must be difficult to decide that two books are "about the same thing" or in any way "the same", but I'm prepared to believe the general notion. I've never heard tell of any male writer that they write "domestic fiction", or that anything fitting that description from them is limited by inwardness and personal interest, no matter how egotistically and transparently autobiographically they stick to the travails of their genitals and careers.

The lenses applied are different, no question.

20sturlington
Mai 13, 2015, 8:14 pm

My husband shared this with me today. It's mocking Men's Rights Activists review of Mad Max Fury Road (they don't like it, too many women). It's amazing to me the depths of paranoia, not to mention misogyny, of the so-called Men's Rights Activists movement when they would consider a Mad Max remake to be a feminist plot agains them.

http://www.avclub.com/article/mad-men-mad-mad-max-having-mad-women-219391?utm_me...

21southernbooklady
Mai 13, 2015, 8:32 pm

>19 LolaWalser: I've never heard tell of any male writer that they write "domestic fiction"

Nicholas Sparks. He once told me "I write romance. I'm a male romance writer--I can't believe more men don't do it. I've got the market to myself."

>20 sturlington: While Clarey admits that he has not actually seen Fury Road—obviously not wanting to have his penis ripped off and replaced with a Betty Friedan book

Snort.

22mabith
Mai 13, 2015, 8:33 pm

Yet Nicholas Sparks seems to be viewed in a higher category than most female romance novelists.

23overlycriticalelisa
Mai 14, 2015, 5:00 pm

i've never read sparks or picoult, but liked this article: http://jezebel.com/jodi-picoult-says-fuck-you-to-lit-world-sexism-and-nic-166371...

24sturlington
Modifié : Mai 14, 2015, 5:40 pm

>23 overlycriticalelisa: I haven't read Picoult either, but based on that link, I like her.

25southernbooklady
Mai 14, 2015, 6:34 pm

Jodi Picoult has a rep for calling out the white male literary establishment. Unfortunately, while I understand the impulse, I don't often agree her take on what makes literature "good" literature. She tends to treat the bias in lit crit against women writers and the bias against "commercial fiction" as sort of the same thing:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/aug/20/jodi-picoult-white-male-literary-da...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-pinter/jodi-picoult-jennifer-weiner-franzen_...

I can sympathize with her complaint that a Carl Hiaasen doesn't have to "choose" between being on the bestseller list and being reviewed in the New York Times, but I don't think her tack is doing us any favors in getting the literary establishment to take women writers seriously.

26sturlington
Mai 14, 2015, 6:46 pm

>25 southernbooklady: Even though this isn't fair, since I haven't read one of Picoult's books, it was my impression that labeling her books as "airport fiction" was a fair assessment. That's why I haven't read her, tbh. I don't usually care for that kind of book, which I think tends to have mass appeal but sacrifices depth. I would put Sparks and Hiaasen in the same category.

I have read The Corrections, though, as well as Eugenides, and while they do write what could be considered "domestic fiction," (not a term that has much meaning to me) their books do have a depth and complexity that I wouldn't associate with what I would call "airport fiction."

I don't think there's anything wrong with throwaway fiction, and I do read it on occasion, but it's not what I prefer to read. Still, I'm for any women writers who are calling out the rather obvious bias toward white male writers in the literary media, whether they be Jodi Picoult or Cheryl Strayed or Margaret Atwood.

27sturlington
Mai 15, 2015, 10:06 am

Cannes Film Festival graciously allowing women directors to compete after a long history of blatantly favoring men: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/15/movies/the-year-of-la-femme-at-the-cannes-film...

Someone get them a cookie.

28LolaWalser
Mai 18, 2015, 5:16 pm

Pitiful. And it's not just the cinema. Women can't seem to make headway as anything other than meat in theatre either.

30southernbooklady
Mai 21, 2015, 2:26 pm

Did anyone see this?

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/may/21/maggie-gyllenhaal-too-old-hollywood?...

“There are things that are really disappointing about being an actress in Hollywood that surprise me all the time,” she said. “I’m 37 and I was told recently I was too old to play the lover of a man who was 55. It was astonishing to me. It made me feel bad, and then it made feel angry, and then it made me laugh.”

31mabith
Mai 21, 2015, 3:26 pm

I just saw that about Gyllenhaal today. This is why I largely watch non-English films about elderly people. Also this:

http://www.theguardian.com/film/2015/may/19/sicario-emily-blunt-demands-to-chang...

"The makers of drug-war thriller Sicario, starring Emily Blunt, Benicio del Toro and Josh Brolin, revealed that they had been under pressure to rewrite the lead role, a female FBI agent played by Blunt, as a man."

Later they write the makers "had the guts" to keep the female lead. I really don't want to live in a world where it takes guts to make a movie with a female lead...

32WildMaggie
Mai 21, 2015, 3:37 pm

>26 sturlington: sturlington "Even though this isn't fair, since I haven't read one of Picoult's books, it was my impression that labeling her books as "airport fiction" was a fair assessment. "

I don't think Picoult thinks it's a fair assessment. I've read one or two and I would say they have a bit more depth and complexity than the run-of-the-mill airport fiction. She tackles some hard issues. But I wouldn't put them in the category of blow-you-mind literature, either. The books I read bordered too much on chick-lit for my tastes.

33sturlington
Modifié : Mai 21, 2015, 3:46 pm

>32 WildMaggie: I should read one of her books and judge for myself. :-)

In the meantime, I think this guide would apply equally well to analyzing male characters in books or films: http://bookriot.com/2015/05/20/analyze-male-characters-book-reviews/ (tongue firmly in cheek, of course)

ETA I actually do have My Sister's Keeper on the shelf, which I found in our Little Free Library.

34LolaWalser
Mai 21, 2015, 4:12 pm

>33 sturlington:

That's funny.

>30 southernbooklady:

I’m 37 and I was told recently I was too old to play the lover of a man who was 55.

What I find most peculiar about this is that romances are peddled to women as primary consumers--and yet they still bear the stamp of male wish-fulfilment fantasies. I mean, individual idiosyncrasies aside, I bet it is not true that a vast majority of female 20- and 30-somethings has daddy fixations and finds men in their sixth decade overwhelmingly attractive. On the other hand, there IS a sizeable group of heterosexual women who'd find a 55 year old man an enticing prospect--women who are themselves close to that age range. But nope, no romantic movies for them!

Iow, this kind of thing indicates to me further how much they are dreamed up and made by men--even when they are meant to entertain women.

Frankly, it's all a kind of grooming and it's been going since movies first began.

35southernbooklady
Mai 21, 2015, 4:21 pm

>34 LolaWalser: What I find most peculiar about this is that romances are peddled to women as primary consumers--and yet they still bear the stamp of male wish-fulfilment fantasies.

Tell me about it. You know what makes me pant in a movie? Emma Thompson. Put her in a film and I don't even remember who else is in the cast. Any man in the scene is just there to be a suitable backdrop for her gorgeousness.

36LolaWalser
Mai 23, 2015, 10:00 pm

>35 southernbooklady:

Freak! ;)

Speaking of representation, why it matters, what is good representation and how heartbreakingly LITTLE it takes to make it:

My Reaction to Mad Max: Fury Road and the Utter Perfection that is Imperator Furiosa

37LolaWalser
Mai 28, 2015, 12:42 pm

I'm beginning to think I really should go see this movie...

Furiosa isn’t the female action hero we’re used to. Furiosa doesn’t have a dad who taught her boxing or five brothers who taught her how to fix cars. Furiosa wasn’t a tomboy growing up, who preferred to play with the boys. Furiosa isn’t avenging the murder of her husband/brother/father or hunting down a rapist.

Furiosa comes from a community of women. She was raised by women. She works her way up through enemy ranks until she’s in a position to rescue women. Furiosa is here for women, she is here with women, and she is here because of women. Her rage, her ruthlessness, her courage – these are all things she learned from women, and from being a woman.


I hate that "male mentor/father figure/god makes a woman" trope so much...

38sparemethecensor
Mai 28, 2015, 2:28 pm

Yeah, nothing appealed to me about it until I started seeing feminists say, wow this movie doesn't suck. A movie where women do amazing things? What's more, an ACTION movie with women doing amazing things? So sadly rare.

39LolaWalser
Mai 28, 2015, 2:48 pm

>38 sparemethecensor:

Yes, me too. And I love action, but the thing is, I've grown to dread anything with what gets touted as a "strong female character". ALWAYS they manage to ruin it somehow. If nothing else, it's the inevitable Smurfs and Smurfette setup or something...

40sturlington
Juin 4, 2015, 4:20 pm

Jon Stewart commenting on the media coverage of Caitlyn Jenner's coming out: http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/oekklq/brave-new-girl

As usual, he is right on target.

41LolaWalser
Juin 4, 2015, 4:52 pm

I've read an OP piece about this person in the NY Times (no idea who she was and I only know "the Kardashians" are some women appearing on tabloid covers in the drugstore). I'm sure Stewart's commentary is well-founded, but the media circus around these people gives everything they do another dimension. More power to Ms. Jenner regarding her transition, but I'll never like anyone who makes a TV show out of their life.

42sturlington
Juin 4, 2015, 5:08 pm

I read that piece too and I thought it made a lot of good points. Jenner was probably best known to most of us as an Olympic athlete who was on the Wheaties box back in the 70s. I don't pay any attention to the kardashians and had no idea she was part of that circus until she started transitioning. The cynical part of me wonders how much of this is carefully orchestrated publicity stunt. I have to wonder if she's really helping the cause for transgendered people.

But yet Stewart makes some excellent points.

43LolaWalser
Juin 4, 2015, 5:24 pm

Well, nobody appears on the cover of "Vanity Fair" by accident... :)

As for helping other trans people, that's the question... I suppose it depends on whether she has more fans than haters.

44mabith
Juin 4, 2015, 5:29 pm

The really problematic thing in the media around famous trans women is that they all seem to be very stereotypically feminine, and have the money to pay for surgeries, clothes, etc... They're coming from a very privileged place that the majority of trans women aren't in, not to mention the fact that some trans women aren't into femme styles of dress and there's pressure on them to conform to a more 'feminine' look.

This is a great article about those kinds of issues:
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/not-your-good-trans-woman/

I certainly don't think Caitlyn Jenner is hurting trans people, and in the end more big media discussions are helpful, even when the interviewers act like jerks.

45sturlington
Modifié : Juin 4, 2015, 5:39 pm

>43 LolaWalser: I know. I meant, how sincere is her transition? But that isn't something I can know or even guess at. She just makes the whole process look about as real as a, well, reality TV show.

ETA Maybe she's just been immersed in that fake reality tv world for so long she doesn't know any other way to be.

46mabith
Juin 4, 2015, 5:45 pm

>45 sturlington: Transitioning is so stressful and difficult I don't think anyone would do it if they didn't feel a real need to. Unless you are trans, I don't think you can ever truly understand what gender dysphoria feels like and how harmful it is to the person going through it.

47sturlington
Juin 4, 2015, 5:50 pm

>46 mabith: You're absolutely right, I'm just commenting on how it appears. It's very odd, in my opinion, to make something so personal so incredibly public.

48mabith
Modifié : Juin 4, 2015, 6:11 pm

At this point, after that show being on for so long, I don't think there was an option to come out privately unless she moved to a tiny island and never left. Better to address the general public's annoying misconceptions right away.

49sturlington
Juin 4, 2015, 6:11 pm

>48 mabith: see, I'm displaying my ignorance because I've never seen the show and had no idea Jenner was on it.

50mabith
Juin 4, 2015, 6:47 pm

Ha, I've never seen it either, but I'm pretty sure she is? I've seen annoying little clips and stills and such by accident with her and one or another Kardashian. Otherwise I don't think she'd really be in the public gaze now?

51LolaWalser
Juin 4, 2015, 10:18 pm

You know what's the best thing glossy rags could do to help the representation of women? Stop Photoshoping and airbrushing their photos. Actually, that would help everybody's mental health, not just women.

But that's never going to happen, is it. Instead we are going to keep finding ways to turn ourselves into Homo Plasticus.

52sparemethecensor
Juin 5, 2015, 12:08 pm

I only started following this within the last few days, and avoid all mentions of the Kardashians like the plague except when they are featured in clips on Joel McHale's Soup show, but I have to say, I am really, really hoping that this is a "the personal is political" stand being taken by Jenner and her transition will matter for a lot of people.

There are so many elements of privilege that she has compared to the average trans person, which are of course not being addressed, but I have always been convinced that visibility by itself matters. After all, have you ever heard so many people try to use the right pronouns for a trans person before? I haven't. They are making mistakes, but they are trying. People are learning. Even despite the privilege -- white privilege, rich privilege, and certainly the "Don't worry, I'm still a Republican" blanket she's hiding behind -- I hope it helps other trans people by bringing attention to the issue.

I was just at an extended family function yesterday where I heard a person say, "I can't believe a man would choose to become a woman," and another family member, who is quite conservative, said, "Actually I heard that it's a medical condition that you don't choose." Graceless, but still the right direction.

53southernbooklady
Juin 6, 2015, 10:31 am

>52 sparemethecensor: I have always been convinced that visibility by itself matters.

Visibility leads to normalcy I suppose. Lately my facebook feed has been full of this story about Caitlyn Jenner, her transition, and the concept of courage:

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/freedhearts/2015/06/04/man-learns-amazing-lesson-in...

It's one of those things that is so apropos I checked on Snopes to see if it was a hoax. It apparently isn't.

55southernbooklady
Juin 7, 2015, 10:23 am

What makes a woman?

"I have fought for many of my 68 years against efforts to put women--our brains, our hearts, our bodies, even out moods --into tidy boxes, to reduce us to hoary stereotypes. Suddenly, I find that many of the people I think of as beind on my side -- people who proudly call themselves progressive and fervently support the human need for self-determination -- are buying into the notion that minor differences in male and female brains lead to major forks in the road and that some sort of gendered destiny is encoded in us.

That's the kind of nonsense that was used to repress women for centuries. But the desire to support people like Ms. Jenner and their journey toward their truest selves has strangely and unwittingly brought it back.

People who haven't lived their whole lives as women, whether Ms. Jenner or Mr. Summers, shouldn't get to define us. That's something men have been doing for much too long. And as much as I recognize and endorse the right of men to throw off the mantle of maleness, they cannot stake their claim to dignity as transgender people by trampling on mine as a woman."


I've heard echoes of this sort of complaint before--especially from my radical feminist/lesbian separatist friends back in my Alex Dobkin groupie days. It had something to do with not recognizing, or rejecting, the idea of "womanliness" that ends up being adopted.

But I think that somehow conflates "gender" with "identity" in our perennial quest to define ourselves. Certainly the article writer above seems to treat them as the same thing. I don't think they are. Identity is at least partially something we construct for ourselves. I don't think you can say the same about gender.

56LolaWalser
Juin 7, 2015, 10:53 am

I don't know whether Ms Jenner has a "female brain" but I can tell what is her idea of it, and it's not pretty. ;) I couldn't possibly care what someone who says she's most looking forward to wearing nail polish "until it chips" thinks about... well, ANYTHING.

It's been seen before: the more theatrical, vampily feminine female image they project, the more exposure people get--and that's whether they are "born women", drag queens, or transsexuals. Jan Morris transitioned middle-aged in late 1970s, going about her life more or less as before, in travelling clothes and "sensible shoes" (just read Edmund White's account of their meeting). No one rushes to put such women on magazine covers, be they trans, cis, peri, meta or all of the above.

It's not so much about being a woman as symbolising a certain type of woman, the classic eye-candy, appealing-to-straight-men, sexy vamp. If that's her thing, great; implying that's what makes a woman, is moronic and insulting.

I'd recommend Kate Bornstein's Gender outlaw for a very different understanding of gender from the point of view of a transgender, post-operative transsexual person.

57sturlington
Juin 7, 2015, 10:57 am

>55 southernbooklady: I learned a lot reading all of the uncharacteristically intelligent comments on that piece, coming from all perspectives. Gender is a complex and emotionally fraught issue. I myself feel uncomfortable discussing it because I don't want to be insensitive and I strive always to be compassionate. Yet, I feel troubled, some of which Burkett touched on in her piece or which was expressed in the comments. What I feel most troubled by is the sense that we cannot have conversations about these issues because we don't want to be exclusionary or offend. I feel troubled about erasing certain words like "vagina" or even "woman" from the conversation. If we can't have honest conversations about these issues, how can we hope to work through our feelings or come to a place of common understanding?

No, I will never know what it's like to be a transgendered person. But as Burkett points out, a man transitioning to female doesn't know what it is like to have lived as a woman since birth. We have to find a way to have respect for and understanding of one another without knowing what it's like from direct experience. And we have to find ways of talking to one another about these issues without feeling that we're venturing in a minefield.

58southernbooklady
Juin 7, 2015, 11:19 am

>57 sturlington: I myself feel uncomfortable discussing it because I don't want to be insensitive and I strive always to be compassionate. Yet, I feel troubled, some of which Burkett touched on in her piece or which was expressed in the comments. What I feel most troubled by is the sense that we cannot have conversations about these issues because we don't want to be exclusionary or offend.

We are all awfully quick to take offense, aren't we? I can't see the point of claiming that "vagina" is a somehow exclusionary or even oppressive word.

It's funny, because I just finished reading Audre Lorde's Zami, which is kind of about all the women in her early life. But it's also a really great account of life in the "gay girl" bar scene in New York City in the 40s and 50s, and one of the things she talks about is how rigidly most people held to the butch/femme dynamic, and how little space there was to be anything else. Or even to just "be yourself." The whole book is about her trying to figure out how to be herself when none of the labels seem to apply to her -- she wasn't interested, as Lola puts it, in being "a certain type of woman," but she caught a lot of grief for it.

It really resonated with me, because it seems like the same kinds of questions are still being asked today.

59LolaWalser
Juin 7, 2015, 11:26 am

I think it's time we recognised that binaries of any kind are not adequate to represent human reality.

60mabith
Juin 7, 2015, 11:31 am

It misses the point that transgender women have always been women, that's the whole thing with gender dysmorphia. No one wakes up middle aged and suddenly feels like a woman, no one goes through this on a whim. Transitioning puts their lives in serious danger from other people, not transitioning puts them at a high risk of suicide and generally self-destructive behavior.

It also seems to dismiss women who are very stereotypically feminine, as though all of them are simply pawns to cultural norms (and they certainly aren't). Demonization of traditionally feminine behavior and hobbies doesn't help anyone (and men already do that constantly anyway).

Maybe with rad fems it partly comes from the fact that they don't understand why anyone would want to live as a women in our society. Which, I know, it sucks, but that's really not the fault of trans women. We need to focus on dismantling the patriarchy, not policing women's choices of self-expression. Trans women are kind of the best placed to illuminate the relative privileges of being seen as male vs being female.

There was a nice little rant someone did on Tumblr:
Girls get mocked for liking high heels and lipstick. Girls get mocked for liking sports. Girls get mocked for liking tea and books. Girls get mocked for liking comics books and video games. Girls get mocked for liking math and science. Girls get mocked for liking boys. Girls get mocked for liking girls. Girls get mocked for liking both. What the fuck are we supposed to like? Water? Air? Come on, tell me. I’m dying to know.

61LolaWalser
Juin 7, 2015, 11:49 am

I didn't notice any demonization of stereotypically feminine women in the article.

62southernbooklady
Juin 7, 2015, 11:58 am

>59 LolaWalser: I think it's time we recognised that binaries of any kind are not adequate to represent human reality.

I think it would be best if we just take what people say about their own identity and reality at their word.

>60 mabith: It also seems to dismiss women who are very stereotypically feminine

I don't think this is quite accurate. It's more that Burkett is telling us not to forget where those feminine stereotypes come from. Clothes have always been indicative of the roles we fill in society. In a patriarchal society, how women should dress is a big way in which their role is enforced.

63LolaWalser
Juin 7, 2015, 12:24 pm

I think it would be best if we just take what people say about their own identity and reality at their word.

That goes without saying as long as they too are not pretending to generalize from their own example.

64mabith
Modifié : Juin 7, 2015, 12:34 pm

>61 LolaWalser: I mostly meant in general but also that's the idea that sunk into me from the quotes in >55 southernbooklady: 's post.

I'm 30 and my generation grew up with soo much "not like other girls" crap droned into us. "Not like other girls" and "most of my friends are boys" were the big compliments. Seemingly in the majority of contemporary TV shows and YA books I saw/read growing up the "girly" girls were the horrible people, without fail. No one would ever say I'm particularly femme, and I feel best when I look androgynous, but that stuff seeped into my generation really hard.

65southernbooklady
Juin 7, 2015, 12:43 pm

>63 LolaWalser: That goes without saying as long as they too are not pretending to generalize from their own example.


Well it's always a two-way street, isn't it? If you want people to take you as you are, you have to return the favor.

I suppose when it comes to Caitlyn Jenner I think the fact that she decided to transition is more significant than the fact that she has an idea of womanhood that doesn't align with mine, or that she comes from a place of privilege, or even that she's Republican. (I mean, who cares that she's a Republican? What does that have to do with anything?). Identity isn't a series of boxes you check off on a list. It's a process, fluid, constantly evolving. I'm all for giving people the space to figure it out for themselves.

66LolaWalser
Juin 7, 2015, 12:44 pm

I don't think there's any danger that stereotypical femininity will disappear. Frankly, as a stereotypically feminine woman myself (well--looking like one anyway), I find it distasteful to worry about it when it is the "butch" women, "untypical" women of every kind (including transgendered women, regarded from a biological point of view) that are under siege and serious, practical threat all the time.

67LolaWalser
Juin 7, 2015, 12:45 pm

>65 southernbooklady:

Is someone here not taking someone else "as they are"?

68southernbooklady
Juin 7, 2015, 12:52 pm

>67 LolaWalser: No, but I was just responding to your comment, not implying anything.

I looks stereotypically feminine as well, and you're right, it's not me that has to worry so much about the innate hostility women get who don't "look like" or act ladylike enough.

69sparemethecensor
Juin 8, 2015, 12:05 pm

>65 southernbooklady:

Actually, I find it very telling that she is repeatedly emphasizing that she's a Republican. Think about how much hassle that saves her from -- you won't hear the religious right talk much shit about her, now. Lots of people get away with things they wouldn't otherwise when they are vocal about being Republicans. Look at Josh Duggar. The guy is a child molester whose parents evaded prosecution for him, and people like Huckabee and Palin are falling all over themselves to say that he and his parents are the Real Victims Here.

70southernbooklady
Juin 8, 2015, 12:09 pm

>69 sparemethecensor: Lots of people get away with things they wouldn't otherwise when they are vocal about being Republicans.

Sorry, I can't equate Caitlyn Jenner with a child molester on the basis that they are both Republicans.

71lorax
Juin 8, 2015, 12:17 pm

I think a big part of the reason why trans women are more likely to have a stereotypically feminine appearance than cis women is that they're less likely to be misgendered that way. Trans women who transition after going through male puberty often have aspects of their appearance that make them appear male, such as height and bone structure. Having long hair and wearing dresses and makeup are a way for them to make their gender more obvious.

I don't think it's all imposed by external pressures, or as an attempt to get attention; I see a lot of trans men with facial hair, who do so deliberately to claim their gender and as protection against misgendering - even a slightly-built and delicately-featured trans man isn't likely to be misgendered when he has a beard. Since there's not single similarly obvious indicator of femaleness, trans women are likely to opt for more external indicators of femininity.

72sparemethecensor
Juin 8, 2015, 1:20 pm

>70 southernbooklady: Sorry, yikes, that certainly is not what I meant. I meant to say that plenty of things in the "culture wars" that are unacceptable to members of the religious right - including being trans - are ignored or OK'd when it's Republicans who are affected. Perhaps a better example is Bristol Palin's pregnancy. The typical teenage unwed mother is a monster destroying the fabric of American society; the teenage unwed mother who is a Republican is a shining beacon of pro-life glory.

73southernbooklady
Juin 8, 2015, 1:24 pm

>72 sparemethecensor: I suppose I think that Republican/Democrat is no more useful a binary at understanding the complexity of people than male/female, gay/straight, atheist/religious. Buying into the binary in either direction only exacerbates the "culture war."

74LolaWalser
Juin 8, 2015, 2:28 pm

>71 lorax:

Excellent point.

I'd only add that, regarding specifically the symbolism of Jenner's VF cover, that's not the everyday, ordinary expression of "stereotypical femininity" we're seeing--and probably that's where some of the confusion between what is and is not being criticised comes from. Millions of women, cis or trans, wear dresses, make-up, high heels etc. That choice, as far as I'm concerned, is never at issue (any more than wearing men's clothes, no make up, shaved head etc. should be). What's interesting, and what I think is sparking the discussions, is precisely the exaggeration, the high-glam sexy pin up Playboy bunny vibe going on. Endorsing THAT smacks of endorsing old fashioned sexism (not helped by the remarks about "female brains" and gushing about nail polish).

She's a celebrity and they have used her transition for a media event so it's understandable they'd go for something like this--does anyone see them going, "how about we put her in a nice low-key pantsuit, sitting behind a desk?"--but that's also why it's not exactly resonating intimately with many women, even of the "stereotypically feminine" majority.

75LolaWalser
Juin 8, 2015, 2:49 pm

Because I brought up Jan Morris several times recently, in various places, I thought I'd copy part of a comment that concerns her, made by someone on the article above:

Jan Morris (very bravely) announced her transition to the world, but her comments at the time ranged from how wonderful it was to now have men hold doors for her, choose the wine, etc. to "I'm 47. I think most women of my age, if they're honest, really accept the idea of helping men, and of being cherished by them. I've always had that feeling. If I could have my life over I suppose I would have been happiest being someone's second-in-command. Lieutenant to a really great man--that's my idea of happiness." I still remember the anger I felt that her ideals of being a woman were so weak, trivial and cliche'd and that, newly born as a woman, she could presume to speak for all women. Only a man, I thought, would have such presumption. Jan Morris has gone on to live an exciting and interesting life and I like to imagine that her ideas matured as she lived longer as a woman.


The bolded is presumably a direct quotation--I googled but didn't find it. I don't recall it from Morris' Conundrum, but it's been years since I read it, and I haven't read any interviews. I do remember something in the book about enjoying the little attentions from men... oh, yes, and something that sort of shocked/amused me even at the time, because it was so different to how I was responding to gross sexual advances--soon after operation and recovery, perhaps during the very first time she went out as a woman, the driver of her vehicle grabbed her and kissed her--and she was DELIGHTED.

I know it was likely mostly relief that she was "passing", but it still... well, it was a curiosity to me.

Anyway, it doesn't look like Morris ever found a man to be "second to in command" and like the commenter, I hope she changed her views on the role of women somewhat. But mostly what this illustrates to me is that habit and age and circumstance tell.

76southernbooklady
Modifié : Juin 8, 2015, 3:24 pm

>74 LolaWalser: What's interesting, and what I think is sparking the discussions, is precisely the exaggeration, the high-glam sexy pin up Playboy bunny vibe going on. Endorsing THAT smacks of endorsing old fashioned sexism (not helped by the remarks about "female brains" and gushing about nail polish).

I've always taken that high-glam persona to be a kind of implicit suggestion: "this is 'woman' taken to the 10th power!"

And yeah, as a girl who put runs in her stockings just by looking at them, I kicked at the implications. But not to the extent that I think guys shouldn't be better at putting on make up than I am. Growing up in the punk era was kind of great for getting used to the idea of using your own body as a statement of self-expression. Nose rings, blue hair, glitter...it was all good.

77LolaWalser
Juin 8, 2015, 5:51 pm

>76 southernbooklady:

But not to the extent that I think guys shouldn't be better at putting on make up than I am.

And no one here suggested anything like that. Besides, Jenner isn't a guy. For my part, although I use make-up and make a point of dressing "stereotypically feminine" especially when/because I work mostly with men, I think of those accoutrements as primarily imposed on us and have no proprietary feelings about them or the skill to use them. In fact I've said as often as I had the opportunity to do so that I support men using make-up (as after all they used to do, for centuries), and colours and textiles and patterns and fashions currently forbidden to the average Western guy. (I might add that this relates to my feelings about burqas and similar--I resent that they are sex-discriminatory. If it were something Muslims of either sex were equally expected to wear to express devotion, I'd have no problem with it.)

"this is 'woman' taken to the 10th power!"

Well, it's a woman taken to the 10th sexual power. I think many of us (I know I am) are very tired of that kind of depiction of female power, or of that power at expense of everything else, because it's been going on forever and everywhere and largely still is the only kind of power conceded to women, especially in the media and entertainment.

78LolaWalser
Modifié : Juin 14, 2015, 12:15 pm

"You have to see it to be it."

Tony Awards 2015 Acceptance Speech: Jeanine Tesori & Lisa Kron

For the musical version of Alison Bechdel's Fun Home.

This little girl is amazing--Sydney Lucas, playing young Alison:

 
 

The "ring of keys" panel from the comic:



Listen to the song here.

Keeping Score: A Record Number of Female Composers on Broadway

“For the first time in history, three female composers have written a musical score in a single Broadway season: Lucy Simon (“Doctor Zhivago”), who is returning to Broadway after almost 25 years; Jeanine Tesori (“Fun Home”), a Broadway regular; and Barbara Anselmi (“It Shoulda Been You”), making her Broadway debut.

79LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 4:56 pm

ha!

If Disney princesses had moms

Never thought of it before--most of them are motherless, aren't they?

Curious.

80sparemethecensor
Juin 26, 2015, 5:22 pm

>79 LolaWalser:

Nice! The Pocahontas one is my favorite.

I don't know why so many Disney princesses are motherless. Women are seen as so disposable in our society that this never even registered with me before. Of course, those with mothers don't benefit much, either: Mulan's mother, for instance, just goes along with her father's opinions, by my recollection.

81Taphophile13
Juin 26, 2015, 5:29 pm

>80 sparemethecensor:
Even Bambi was motherless. (Maybe Disney had mother issues.)

82southernbooklady
Juin 26, 2015, 5:33 pm

They're motherless because if they weren't the mothers would be on the side of the princesses and all those Disney male heroes would have to deal with them. Disney obviously believes that a marriage can't be happy if the husband has to deal with a mother in law.

83LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 5:41 pm

I don't know what's the ratio of original Disney stories to retellings, and fairy tales etc. frequently feature orphans. I've never seen the Disney Bambi but the original is a story by Felix Salten in which Bambi's mother is killed by hunters. (And yes, that's children's literature in old Europe!) I've always preferred the sequel, Bambi's children, in which Bambi falls in love with a great doe--actually, the English translation messes up the genus of Bambi and his people right--they are not deer, but a type of ungulate unknown in North America, a more graceful species of fantastic runners.

Anyway, Disney sucks.

84LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 5:47 pm

Salten's (European) Bambi:

85LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 5:48 pm

The cow-sized barrel-shaped American Bambi:

86LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 5:49 pm

One is hot, the other not.

87LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 7:44 pm

Representation of horned animals matters!

88LolaWalser
Juin 26, 2015, 7:55 pm

In other news, I have only just discovered the goodness that is--was--"Parks & Recreations".

Leslie Knope for president of everything!



And, look, I know it's a comedy and satire, but THAT is still the best writing of a female character I've ever seen. (Which, okay, is not saying much...) She's INTERESTING! She's a PERSON! Interesting and a person in her own right, doing stuff for her own purposes, some of which but most don't concern getting a man to love her!

And she has a mission, and is kind, and SHE CALLED HERSELF A FEMINIST, in a TV show, and that wasn't played for laughs!

What other female characters in what shows declared themselves as feminists? Maybe that's going to be my "Leslie Knope" test. In order to watch any show at all, I shall require that it has 1) at least two female characters 2) who casually describe themselves as feminists and 3) this is not so the writers can tear them down.

89sturlington
Juin 26, 2015, 8:27 pm

You might like 30 Rock then.

90LolaWalser
Juin 27, 2015, 9:32 am

Never heard of it... I'll keep it in mind.

>82 southernbooklady:

It seems fathers get eliminated as rivals for the girl's affection, and mothers as rivals for control over the girl.

91LolaWalser
Juin 27, 2015, 10:05 am

Bookmark:

92LolaWalser
Juin 28, 2015, 5:08 pm

>88 LolaWalser:

Aigh, season four nose-dived somewhere about the middle. Probably won't finish the set. Damnnn... It was a loan from a friend who previously loaned me the original Star Trek and that I couldn't digest at all, felt so guilty about it too (his favourite!)

94LolaWalser
Juin 30, 2015, 12:12 pm

Real people, women and men, churning out stereotypes that in no way fit them or most of the people they know--so common, so depressing...

95southernbooklady
Juin 30, 2015, 3:28 pm

97LolaWalser
Modifié : Juil 7, 2015, 12:19 pm

I see the can of worms was opened in the comments... But to me, this much has become clear: obesity is here to stay, many people will spend their entire lives as obese or overweight individuals, and instead of trying to shame them into "health"--let alone the ubiquitous just shaming them--it really is time to stop imposing skinniness as ideal. That's only exacerbating the problem--and making new ones, especially for girls.

But it's very complicated. I have some strong opinions on what the governments could and should do to combat and prevent obesity--this is not palatable to most or at least very many Americans.

But speaking as someone who's worked in diabetes for years--it's crazy to spend millions on inventing new drugs and therapies and surgeries when a change in social environment would be immediately, assuredly, and most effective.

98southernbooklady
Juil 7, 2015, 12:51 pm

>97 LolaWalser: I have some strong opinions on what the governments could and should do to combat and prevent obesity--this is not palatable to most or at least very many Americans.

I'd be happy if they'd just limit the amount of sugar, corn syrup, and salt in processed foods.

But I wish our idea of what is beautiful was less obsessed with a certain body type, and more engaged with things like vitality, confidence, your own sense of what is strong and feels powerful for you.

But I was born to become tall and thin, so I really have no ground to stand on and pontificate about what I think women should look like.

I despise the culture that visits crushing anxieties and insecurities on women who aren't thin, though. Truly despise it.

99LolaWalser
Juil 7, 2015, 1:00 pm

>98 southernbooklady:

But I wish our idea of what is beautiful was less obsessed with a certain body type, and more engaged with things like vitality, confidence, your own sense of what is strong and feels powerful for you.

Absolutely. But there really is only so much one can do, when you have entire industries working against that. I mean, you can try to preserve your sanity and try to raise your kids with antidote ideas, maybe "preach" as much as possible to your immediate environment... but when the media with their advertising and images in general are so deeply enmeshed with our lives--that's basically THE horizon, THE landscape in which we live... it seems rather hopeless.

I'd ban advertising.

100southernbooklady
Juil 11, 2015, 8:04 pm

Perceptions of Serena Williams:

Why does she earn less in endorsements than Sharapova?

Kevin Adler, a marketing expert, suggested there is a double standard for male and female athletes. “You’d be hard-pressed to find a popular male athlete who doesn’t also have physicality and sex appeal. But that comes second to winning for guys, whereas for female athletes, looks come first,” Adler told Women’s Wear Daily in 2013.


The racism that follows every Williams win

Writing for Rolling Stone in 2013, Stephen Roderick observed, "Sharapova is tall, white and blond, and, because of that, makes more money in endorsements than Serena, who is black, beautiful and built like one of those monster trucks that crushes Volkswagens at sports arenas."

101streamsong
Modifié : Juil 14, 2015, 10:01 am

From an LTER book that I'm reading - written by Dr. John Shivik, a male adjunct University prof in the wildlife management field, writing about a wolf biologist employed in Ted Turner's group: (I know the post doesn't quite fit here, since it's more about women in science).

"Val (Asher - real name - you can google her) would have been perfectly cast as the resourceful, confident, borderline truculent heroine in a dusty western. She had dark eyes and wavy brown hair, but was so tough and scrappy that you almost forget how pretty she was. I could not imagine that she'd ever appear in a dainty dress, much less petticoats. A long time wolf trapper, Val played the part accurately."

Gag me with a spoon.

102sparemethecensor
Juil 14, 2015, 11:11 am

Beauty > competence.

103Taphophile13
Juil 14, 2015, 11:24 am

>102 sparemethecensor:
Oh yes, I want my doctor/mechanic/accountant/plumber to be handsome. He doesn't have to know what he's doing.

104LolaWalser
Juil 14, 2015, 12:04 pm

>103 Taphophile13:

lol!

Yes, the idea that nothing pleases or compliments a woman more than praising her looks--regardless of context!--is tough to dislodge.

105lorax
Juil 14, 2015, 12:16 pm

And in addition to the looks aspect, there's the notion that a woman in science isn't really a scientist; she's just "playing the part".

106southernbooklady
Juil 14, 2015, 12:22 pm

>102 sparemethecensor: Beauty > competence.

I once pissed a guy off who was telling me about why I shouldn't vote for a particular female candidate for a local school board election. He started off on her clothes and her attitude and her family situation (single mom), and I finally said -- so you aren't really telling me why I shouldn't vote for her, you're telling me why you wouldn't fuck her.

He was insulted.

107LolaWalser
Juil 14, 2015, 12:36 pm

Arrrrgh! Is this true?! Just saw on Tumblr: Wonder Woman the movie changes her origin story (made from clay by her mother IIRC) to having Zeus for a father!!! NOOOOOOOOOOO! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

108southernbooklady
Juil 14, 2015, 1:06 pm

With the caveat that I know absolutely nothing about Wonder Woman except that my sister likes her enough to get a tattoo of her on her shoulder:

The surprising origins of Wonder Woman

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/origin-story-wonder-woman-180952710/?...

Later in the story, Wonder Woman is locked in a cell. Straining to overhear a conversation in the next room, through the amplification of “bone conduction,” she takes her chain in her teeth: “Closeup of WW’s head shoulders. She holds her neck chain between her teeth. The chain runs taut between her teeth and the wall, where it is locked to a steel ring bolt.”

Gaines forwarded Frank’s letter of complaint to Marston. Marston shrugged it off. But then Dorothy Roubicek, who helped edit Wonder Woman—the first woman editor at DC Comics—objected to Wonder Woman’s torture, too.

“Of course I wouldn’t expect Miss Roubicek to understand all this,” Marston wrote Gaines. “After all I have devoted my entire life to working out psychological principles. Miss R. has been in comics only 6 months or so, hasn’t she? And never in psychology.” But “the secret of woman’s allure,” he told Gaines, is that “women enjoy submission—being bound.”


109LolaWalser
Juil 14, 2015, 1:11 pm

>108 southernbooklady:

Marston was a trip! But that's a different level of "origin" story! :)

my sister likes her enough to get a tattoo of her on her shoulder

Whoa, now that's liking!

111LolaWalser
Modifié : Juil 21, 2015, 11:27 am

(ETA: Oops, x-post, was referring to topic in general.)

More of the same, posting only because of a bit that made me laugh:

Emma Thompson: sexism in acting industry is worse than ever

Publicising her Disney film Saving Mr Banks two years ago, she said there was a period in her 30s when she was offered “a whole string of roles that basically involved saying to a man: ‘Please don’t go and do that brave thing. Don’t! No, no, no!’

“That’s a trope, the stock woman who says: ‘Don’t do the brave thing.’ I said no to all of them. I’m so proud.”


lol @ saying "no" to stock characters who say "no"!

And god is that cliché bloody annoying or what. I called it "the brake" to myself--you know, the female character who exists only to provide some resistance to what the male character is doing (and what, of course, is the necessary/important/right thing to do, although dangerous/risky/terrifying), and to no avail, of course. There she clings to his neck, moaning "think of me/us/the babies!" Usually she has a point, but she's reduced to that--ineffectual plea for private love (her man is, of course, dealing with the problems of mankind).

It's the "girl sprains her ankle" role writ somewhat larger. The nagging wife, the stroppy girlfriend, the chiding sister, the unreasonable female boss--just there to provide something to hit, prevail and prove yourself against.

112LolaWalser
Juil 21, 2015, 11:30 am

113southernbooklady
Juil 21, 2015, 12:00 pm

>111 LolaWalser: “That’s a trope, the stock woman who says: ‘Don’t do the brave thing.’ I said no to all of them. I’m so proud.”

I have a picture of Emma Thompson in my locker. :-)

114LolaWalser
Juil 21, 2015, 12:12 pm

>113 southernbooklady:

But is that feminist? ;)

So how do you feel about her at 56 playing a woman of 77 and everyone being "sure, cool, that works"?

115southernbooklady
Juil 21, 2015, 12:17 pm

I don't see much in the way of movies, so bearing in mind I'm not an expert, I think it's up to the actor to pull it off. Did she pull it off?

116LolaWalser
Juil 21, 2015, 12:36 pm

No idea, but I firmly believe Emma Thompson can pull off anything.

I was thinking more about the fact that once you're "over the hill", you may as well be a hundred as fifty... it reads all the same to... well, "certain people" for sure.

I remember ages ago when it first struck me. In my twenties I had a big crush on Mrs. Peel (Diana Rigg in The Avengers, seen on VHS), she was sort of my beacon of style, charm, conduct. And I came across an early interview with her, some years after she had left the show but when she was still in her thirties... She talked about how drastically she felt she had changed--matured, grown older of course--because she had suddenly become "invisible" to men. And I was like, DIANA RIGG, "invisible"? Un-possible! But, yes. Even her.

118LolaWalser
Juil 22, 2015, 2:42 pm

>117 sturlington:

That's hilarious!

More on age... Tumblr sez: Arnold is still playing the terminator at 70, Stallone is still Rambo at 65, so why do we need a new Xena: Warrior Princess? Lucy Lawless is only in her 40s, ffs.

119sturlington
Août 1, 2015, 8:44 am

I can't even count how many ways this story pissed me off this morning. About the phenomenon known as Resting Bitch Face:

I’m Not Mad. That’s Just My RBF. http://nyti.ms/1JX3tTQ

120southernbooklady
Août 1, 2015, 9:43 am

Yes, because any woman who isn't smiling is being a bitch by default. Jeez. Men and their fragile little emotional states. How do they get through the day without all those smiling women to tell them they are virile, sexy, and important examples of the male sex?

121Taphophile13
Août 1, 2015, 12:13 pm

It's always something isn't it? Women aren't allowed to look sad, angry, pensive, or worse bored—or anything less than thrilled to be in the presence of a man, any man. Maybe men should start learning how to read faces better and stop thinking the world revolves around them.

122LolaWalser
Août 2, 2015, 1:16 pm

I can't believe women are getting botox and plastic surgery because of this. How sad is that?

Jean Rhys's autobiography is titled Smile, please.

123sturlington
Modifié : Août 5, 2015, 2:44 pm

I just heard Debbie Cameron on NPR and thought she was excellent. Her essay on vocal patterns and women is well worth reading: http://inthesetimes.com/article/18241/naomi-wolf-speech-uptalk-vocal-fry

Love this paragraph:

Not only do you assume that since uptalk and vocal fry are used by young women they must be expressions of female powerlessness, you go on to argue that these speech patterns are actually causing women’s powerlessness, and urge women to reclaim their power by changing the way they speak. That’s back-to-front logic: it’s a bit like saying that if only African Americans would stop speaking African American English the police would be less likely to shoot them. It misses the point that negative attitudes to the language of subordinate groups are just manifestations of a more general prejudice against the groups themselves. People may claim that their judgments are purely about the speech, but really they’re judgments of the speakers.

124southernbooklady
Août 5, 2015, 2:54 pm

Her current blog piece on how to write a bullshit article on women's language is AWESOME!

https://debuk.wordpress.com/2015/08/03/how-to-write-a-bullshit-article-about-wom...

125sturlington
Août 5, 2015, 2:59 pm

>124 southernbooklady: "Bullshit may endure, but it doesn’t have to be endured."

This woman is my new hero. I have to have this put on a t-shirt immediately.

126lorax
Août 5, 2015, 3:14 pm

>123 sturlington:

The very smart and very funny Alexandra Petri has a great take on those "how to speak while female" tips:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2015/07/28/13-tips-on-how-to-spe...

127LolaWalser
Août 11, 2015, 11:50 am

Interesting observations in here (whether one cares or not about the movie):

The real reason some men still can't handle the all-female 'Ghostbusters'

(...) Part of the problem is... also the fact that men are genuinely unaccustomed to seeing women in films. In a 2013 interview with NPR, Geena Davis discussed how the under-representation of women both onscreen and off leads men to have a skewed sense of what gender parity looks like.

Davis cited a recent study that examined the ratio of men and women in groups, explaining that researchers “found that if there's 17 percent women, the men in the group think it's 50-50. And if there's 33 percent women, the men perceive that as there being more women in the room than men.” (...)

Australian feminist Dale Spender theorizes that this happens because men aren't comparing how frequently women speak to how frequently men speak; they're comparing how much women speak to how much they think women should speak. “The talkativeness of women has been gauged in comparison not with men but with silence,” she explains. “Women have not been judged on the grounds of whether they talk more than men, but of whether they talk more than silent women.”

128southernbooklady
Août 11, 2015, 12:01 pm

>127 LolaWalser: Davis cited a recent study that examined the ratio of men and women in groups, explaining that researchers “found that if there's 17 percent women, the men in the group think it's 50-50. And if there's 33 percent women, the men perceive that as there being more women in the room than men.” (...)

This just makes me laugh.

129LolaWalser
Août 11, 2015, 12:21 pm

Every woman is three feminists and a lampshade in a trenchcoat!

130LolaWalser
Août 25, 2015, 10:14 am

I get annoyed about applications of the word ‘feminine’ as a particular kind of cultural judgment. Mostly, as far as my work is concerned, I hear that word used as an umbrella term for elements of it that are often described as ‘fragile’, ‘ephemeral’, ‘pale’, ‘impermanent’. What a massive insult. The fact that anyone might think that I would set forth such connotations is an affront to me. I wonder if anyone ever thinks that the massive scale of a lot of the works, the weight of them, the tonnage of materials involved, the physical labour and the endurance inherent within them are 'feminine’?
Does anyone ever describe the works of Franz West as 'feminine’? He uses a lot of pinks and powder blues. Or Richard Tuttle? A lot of his works are very small and fragile and light. Or Jeff Koons, with all his bows and rosettes and cuddly toys? Obviously there’s some sort of wilful blindness going on, and it makes me wonder whether to label a work 'feminine’ is a veiled insult. Still, in the contemporary art world, only women’s work is gendered. The work of a male artist is always an acceptable norm and anything else is 'other’, even though in reality it’s all exactly the same. Female and male artists both have aspects of 'femininity’ and 'masculinity'—for want of better descriptions, since those categories are completely made up anyway—in all of their works.


— Karla Black, in conversation with Barry Schwabsky, 2014

(Sorry no link, seems to be from a book or catalogue.)

131southernbooklady
Août 25, 2015, 10:25 am

>130 LolaWalser: in the contemporary art world, only women’s work is gendered.

Toni Morrison once said "In this country, American means white. Everybody else has to hyphenate." I'd say something like that is true for gender. Unless you are bearing children, the assumption is male, and everyone else is a qualification, an adjective.

132sturlington
Août 26, 2015, 9:14 am

Regardless of what you think of the Duggars, this essay clearly outlines how their religion is a blueprint for total oppression and control of women: http://www.salon.com/2015/05/28/i_couldve_been_a_duggar_wife_i_grew_up_in_the_sa...

133LolaWalser
Sep 13, 2015, 1:48 pm



“Don’t let your woman announcer be too aggressive. She will antagonize all men, and many women. She must, however, speak with authority… A woman announcer is always a hazardous risk and few can please all viewers.”

134sturlington
Sep 25, 2015, 9:16 am

Shonda Rimes is the creator of the television show Scandal. I really like what she has to say here about diversifying versus normalizing television:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/16/shonda-rhimes-diversity-normalize-telev...

"I really hate the word 'diversity,' it suggests something…other. As if it is something…special. Or rare," Rhimes said. "As if there is something unusual about telling stories involving women and people of color and LGBTQ characters on TV."

"I have a different word: NORMALIZING. I’m normalizing TV."

135sturlington
Sep 26, 2015, 12:35 pm

So now ALL of the world's major religions are sexist pigs: “I mean if female Dalai Lama come, then that female must be very attractive, otherwise not much use,” said the Dalai Lama in a recent interview. http://jezebel.com/dalai-lama-a-female-dalai-lama-must-be-attractive-oth-1732350...

136LolaWalser
Nov 11, 2015, 10:59 am

Daniel Craig, not just a pretty face:

Daniel Craig on James Bond: “Let’s Not Forget That He’s Actually A Misogynist.”

Next comes the interview’s best moment of all, when the interviewer asks, “And this time you’ve gone one better, showing 007 succumbing to the charms of an older woman.” Craig responds: I think you mean the charms of a woman his own age.


However, note that... (and I don't fucking care about spoiling fucking James Bond shit)... he doesn't end up with the "older woman" but with the regulation at-least-a-generation-younger bimbo.

Peter Capaldi does even better:

Peter Capaldi interview: 'Sexism in the TV industry is ridiculous'

It’s ridiculous that we get these old guys with young women draped round them. (...) Of course it’s sexist. Most of my peers have partners their age, so if we have a dinner party with a bunch of actors, the wives or partners are largely the same age. Then you see your friends on screen and they are suddenly with some extraordinary young lady who wouldn’t be at the dinner party. It’s ridiculous.

“It is true that women reach a certain age when people decide that they’re not useful anymore as actors. There are a few significant theatrical roles that they might be viable for. That’s not fair, it’s not right, it’s not a proper reflection of what goes on in life.”

137.Monkey.
Nov 11, 2015, 5:19 pm

I have suddenly become a Peter Capaldi fan. And an even bigger Daniel Craig fan. Kudos to them both!

138sturlington
Nov 20, 2015, 7:14 am

Haven't had time to read it all yet, but the NY times magazine has a feature article on the barriers to women working in Hollywood:

The Women of Hollywood Speak Out http://nyti.ms/1lyggHH

139LolaWalser
Nov 20, 2015, 1:43 pm

It's sort of mind-boggling that the situation is somehow worse in Hollywood than even Silicon Valley or top business in general (where it's miserable anyway, but not quite that much.)

Prof. Martha Lauzen of San Diego State University reports that in 2014, 95 percent of cinematographers, 89 percent of screenwriters, 82 percent of editors, 81 percent of executive producers and 77 percent of producers were men.

‘‘It’s kind of like the church,’’ notes the actress Anjelica Huston, whose father, John Huston, helped set the template for macho directors. ‘‘They don’t want us to be priests. They want us to be obedient nuns.’’


Word. No women on top! Ever! Anywhere! Jehovah, Jaysus and Muhammad said so!

Very interesting about the influence of pandering to even more misogynistic foreign markets. Meaning, if you want to rag on India about its rape culture, consider how you've contributed to it by every diminishment of women peddled to it.

Female writers in Hollywood told me they are used to hearing things like ‘‘Can you insert a rape scene here?’’


Fucking hell. I'd be asking back what could I insert in his fundament.

They trade stories about how a schlubby male studio head mutters that he doesn’t want to look at ‘‘ugly actresses,’’ and how schlubby male directors, caught up in their fantasy world, choose one beautiful actress over another simply because she has a hair color that fits their customized sexual daydream. ‘‘I still see storytelling for men by men that is always reinforcing the male gaze,’’ says Jill Soloway...


Yes, this. It's wankers selling wank fantasies to other wankers. Thing is, once upon a time--before WWII--they acknowledged something had to be given to the ladies too.

It's become usual to blame the advent of seventies blockbusters aimed at teenage males, but this started much earlier, with forties and fifties hardboiled crime and noir and then Bond, which set a template for fantasy male hero subject and fantasy female sex object. This is still how these people see what the movies are "for". For men, and for what KIND of men: assholes, in short.

Boys are never encouraged to imagine what it is like to be female.


Yes, this. (Although I must add I meet some wonderful young guys these days. More wonderful than I remember any of my peers to have been, quite like a new species. Good job, whoever is doing it.)

But if only 1.9 percent of the top 100 films are helmed by women, there is virtually no trickle-down effect. ‘‘


Perennial problem everywhere. You get some women on top, but so few it basically doesn't matter, can't matter, for other women.

We don’t get the benefit of the doubt, particularly black women. We’re presumed incompetent, whereas a white male is assumed competent until proven otherwise. They just think the guy in the ball hat and the T-shirt over the thermal has got it, whether he’s got it or not.


Yep, true. The magic of privilege, the extension of trust to every dolt because of Einstein and Spielberg.

On her ‘‘Suffragette’’ tour, Meryl Streep counted the number of male critics versus female critics on Rotten Tomatoes, and found a ratio of 760 to 168 on the Tomatometer.


The silver lining here is that this probably means there are many more barrel-bottomed TV-guzzling illiterate couch potatoes of male than female gender.

140sturlington
Nov 24, 2015, 9:29 am

Amazing, amazing essay by Claire Vaye Watkins:

http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/41314/on-pandering.html

A taste: "Let us embrace a do-it-yourself canon, wherein we each make our own canon filled with what we love to read, what speaks to us and challenges us and opens us up, wherein we can each determine our artistic lineages for ourselves, with curiosity and vigor, rather than trying to shoehorn ourselves into a canon ready made and gifted us by some white fucks at Oxford."

141southernbooklady
Nov 24, 2015, 11:01 am

Woah. Thanks for that, sturlington!

142LolaWalser
Nov 24, 2015, 1:11 pm

Yes, thanks. It wouldn't load the page for me so I had to access it via cache, in case anyone else is having that problem.

Um, anyone know what's this about:

why should their voices be louder in my head than that of Karen Russell, a beyond generous certified genius and, with any luck, my future sister-wife?


I hope she means sister-in-law?

143sturlington
Nov 24, 2015, 2:07 pm

>142 LolaWalser: Don't know, maybe a joke? The essay did start out as a talk.

144LolaWalser
Nov 24, 2015, 2:12 pm

>143 sturlington:

Well I hope so. Sounds weird tho'.

Ha, apparently the site did crash because of a rush to read this article!

145sturlington
Nov 24, 2015, 5:18 pm

Gosh, I didn't realize so many people read this group. ;-)

146LolaWalser
Nov 24, 2015, 5:22 pm

The Silent Majority. :)

147southernbooklady
Nov 25, 2015, 10:30 am

>140 sturlington: The Internet apparently exploded after that article. Here's one response that is a commentary on the responses, so to speak:

http://flavorwire.com/548904/claire-vaye-watkins-on-pandering-describes-a-specif...

What Watkins has done, however, is introduced a new vocabulary for something that previously went unnamed, and consequently unrecognized even by those it affects most. And as writers know, vocabulary is a starting point, one to be expanded and applied in new contexts.


148LolaWalser
Déc 1, 2015, 1:16 pm

This is refreshing:

Pirelli calendar goes with less steam and more jokes for 2016

The cultural commentator Fran Lebowitz makes an unlikely Miss May, smoking a cigarette in a man’s oversized pinstriped jacket.


lol

149sturlington
Déc 1, 2015, 2:21 pm

>148 LolaWalser: That's great. Serena Williams looks like she could pull someone's head off without breaking a sweat.

150Bookmarque
Déc 1, 2015, 2:41 pm

Or using her arms!

152LolaWalser
Déc 29, 2015, 12:38 pm

Thanks!

Campbell reportedly told his students that "women don't need to make the journey. In the whole mythological journey, the woman is there. All she has to do is realise that she's the place that people are trying to get to".


Ugh, lol.

153sturlington
Déc 29, 2015, 3:40 pm

My reaction exactly.

154southernbooklady
Déc 30, 2015, 4:30 pm

So I haven't seen the Star Wars movie yet, but Carrie Fisher is apparently getting a lot of grief for not being the same woman who got stuck in a gold bikini and slobbered on by a big fat slug:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/12/30/carrie-fisher-stri...

I liked this comment:

“Men don’t age better than women, they’re just allowed to age.”

155LolaWalser
Déc 30, 2015, 5:25 pm

Geez, just how pitiful a jerk one must be to criticise someone's ageing... She's doing a public service hitting back, but I hope she doesn't really care.

156southernbooklady
Jan 2, 2016, 10:49 am

So, Serena Williams was chosen as Sportsperson of the Year by the staff at Sports Illustrated. But in their reader poll fans chose American Pharoah -- apparently because the horse won the Triple Crown while Serena lost the Grand Slam:

Is Serena better than a horse?

Here, by the way, is her "sportsperson of the year" cover shot:



and here's some context: Sports Illustrated "Sportsperson of the Year Covers"

Not being a sports person myself, the whole thing only came to my attention because of a recent interview with Claudia Rankine in the Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/dec/27/claudia-rankine-poet-citizen-americ...

157LolaWalser
Jan 2, 2016, 11:08 am

WHO the fuck edits newspapers these days? Homer Simpson? Keep an eye on your twitter stable, nincompoops.

That Guardian interviewer is not the brightest crayon in the box either...

But, it is a great cover picture on the SI.

158LolaWalser
Fév 24, 2016, 1:51 pm

This should probably go into a wider "diversity" topic, but since this thread dealt a lot with Hollywood and the media...

What It’s Really Like to Work in Hollywood*
(*If you’re not a straight white man.)

159LolaWalser
Modifié : Fév 24, 2016, 2:27 pm

I definitely think about what I’m going to say before I say it, because I do feel that I’m more likely to offend just by being female and having a strong opinion on something.(...)

I have a huge social responsibility. I have to stay on budget and be on time to make great entertainment and make profit, because that’s my job. But I also know if one of us were to screw up — and we don’t, because that’s the thing, right — it does cause {a response of}, “Well, it’s a woman.”(...)

My role is not just artist. It’s also activist because of the way I look. On so many shows and movies, race was a gesture, and in mine it’s the premise. I can’t ignore that what a lot of people see is an Indian woman who doesn’t look like a Bollywood star. It piques their interest, and they’re not bad for wanting me to tell stories about it, and I’m not wrong for not wanting to. I want to fill my desire to write vibrant, flawed characters, but then also be a role model to young people. It’s stuff that I think about all the time. Some people don’t have to think about this at all.(...)

160sturlington
Mai 20, 2016, 11:34 am

Welp, I'm all over the place with links today, which means I'm spending more time on the Internet than being productive. I thought this was amusing:

You're Whining About the Ghostbusters Reboot Because You're Still a Child and Need to Grow Up
The new Ghostbusters will not ruin the original—or your childhood​.
http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/movies/a45007/ghostbusters-reboot-boycotts/

I would definitely go see an all-male reboot of Steel Magnolias.

Also Robin Wright, who plays a kick-ass unlikeable woman in House of Cards, on how she got equal pay for equal work: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/19/arts/television/how-robin-wright-negotiated-eq...

161sturlington
Modifié : Juil 14, 2016, 7:02 pm

Some more reading for y'all, on over-representation of male animals in cartoons -- https://psmag.com/of-mice-and-minions-why-are-all-the-cartoon-animals-male-144eb...

And men rating tv shows aimed at women disproportionately lower -- http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/men-are-sabotaging-the-online-reviews-of-tv-...

Also, I think that Ghostbusters movie comes out -- http://www.dailydot.com/irl/are-men-ok-ghostbros/

162LolaWalser
Sep 18, 2016, 2:57 pm

How has rape become such a common trope of television drama?

(...) By the time we went to camera, my dead old lady had turned into a thirtysomething adultress who gets her head bashed in, and my old lady in the attic had turned into a beautiful blond teenager in a basement being held captive by the world’s most adorable predator, Rossif Sutherland.

And I had just co-written a rape episode.

Over the next year, I went from feeling indefinably icky about that episode to rage over how much female rape there is on TV in general. The most notorious example is Game of Thrones, winner of nine Creative Arts Emmys last weekend and the most nominated show going into the Primetime Emmy Awards tomorrow. After the violent rape of Sansa Stark in Season 5, “geek girl” blogger Tafkar produced a “Statistical Analysis of Rape in Game of Thrones”: rape acts in Game of Thrones the TV series: 50; rape victims in Game of Thrones: 29; rape acts in the A Song of Ice and Fire books by George Martin: 214; rape victims in ASOIAF: 117.

GoT toned things down in Season 6, but there’s always a new show to pick up the slack, and this season, it looks as if it might be the new HBO series Westworld (premiering Oct. 2). In the first episode, set at a resort where humans can interact with lifelike robots, an android played by Evan Rachel Wood is dragged off by her hair to fulfill an older man’s rape fantasy.

Elsewhere, the female rape trope is a staple of shows such as Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, CSI and Criminal Minds, and sprinkled throughout other procedurals such as NCIS, Hawaii Five-O, Bones and The Mentalist.

It’s used as a back story (usually with graphic flashbacks) for characters such as Elizabeth Jennings in The Americans, raped by her Soviet trainer; Norma Bates in Bates Motel, raped in the pilot by a previous owner of the motel, after (we later learn) being raped by her brother as a teen; the gang-raped girlfriend Lumen on Season 5 of Dexter; Claire Underwood in House of Cards still traumatized by a college rape; Jessica Jones’s lead raped by her abductor/keeper; Mellie Grant on Scandal raped by her father-in-law.

Rape is also used as a device to motivate male heroes, from Tony’s anguish and need for revenge after the rape of his psychiatrist in The Sopranos to Ray Velcoro’s anguish and need for revenge – and also a paternity test for his son – after the rape of his wife in Season 2 of True Detective.

Even “quality” shows have rape aplenty: Anna Bates raped on Downton Abbey; police sergeant Catherine Cawood driven by the rape of her daughter, who died by suicide, in Happy Valley; Gillian recovering from years of marital rape on Last Tango in Halifax; Joan Holloway raped by her fiancé in Mad Men; Queen Mary raped by Protestant soldiers in Reign; Detective Robin Griffin dealing with fallout from her own prom-night gang rape while solving a child-rape case in Top of the Lake.

The current avalanche of female rape on TV has even become something of a joke. As in: “I joke, morbidly,” Sonia Saraiya wrote in Salon, “that my job title has changed from television critic to ‘senior rape correspondent.’” Meanwhile, Hannibal showrunner Bryan Fuller made headlines last season for not using rape, telling Entertainment Weekly, “It’s so overexploited, it becomes callous … You’re reduced to using shorthand, and I don’t think there can be a shorthand for that violation.”

163sturlington
Sep 18, 2016, 3:35 pm

>162 LolaWalser: Yeah, I'm pretty much over crime TV because of the rape factor. That said, I think on Jessica Jones at least it was done well. We know she was raped but we aren't shown the rape, and it's part of an overall literal mind control thing. Jessica's story arc is to use her own strength to literally overcome the mind control and assert herself as the primary agent in her life. I thought it was done well, the rape was part of her whole victimization but not focused on or glorified, and she was her own hero--no "white knight" syndrome.

But that last paragraph is key. When everything is rape rape rape all the time, then rape just becomes not such a big deal. And it's pure laziness on writers' parts to make rape a defining part of almost every major female character's back story or motivation.

Here's the Salon article you reference--it's a terrific piece, if you haven't read it: http://www.salon.com/2015/06/25/the_truth_about_tvs_rape_obsession_how_we_strugg...

164LolaWalser
Sep 18, 2016, 4:12 pm

>163 sturlington:

Thanks! I'd only take issue with this:

What we call rape is an entirely new phenomenon—barely 50 years old.

I don't know much about the historical or legal aspect, but at least from literature there's plenty of evidence that sexual rape was considered with horror and moral repugnance, an outrageous crime. More so if the victim was a lady and/or a virgin, but still. Miles away from our notions but surely not an entirely new phenomenon...

A few more things from the article I linked, because I didn't see it mentioned:

The second, bigger problem is with how the crime is aestheticized for the camera. Massive amounts of time and money are spent on hair, makeup and lighting to sexualize rape victims. Look at the first scene of the first episode of the lauded French series Spiral, which shows a dead, naked girl covered in blood on a garbage heap. I’m willing to bet many minutes, if not hours, were spent lighting her and positioning the camera in order to capture the silhouette of the erect nipple of her right breast against a background of black tires. The only onscreen rape I’ve seen that was presented in a believable – i.e., unsexy – manner was in the movie Deliverance. I’m not saying we need more scenes such as Ned Beatty in his underwear scrabbling in the mud while being treated like a pig, but at least it didn’t prettify the crime. (...)

My point is that the images TV uses to tell rape stories always, without exception, trump the dialogue or supposedly worthy aims of us, the writers. It doesn’t matter how much rationalization or feminist rhetoric we cram into our actors’ mouths. When rape is lyricized as something that happens to attractive young women, it becomes conflated with sex, which reinforces rape culture.


Stories, ideas, words, we discuss a lot, but this--presenting horrible stuff in visually seductive ways--tends to be overlooked. (And yet it may be even more important, because of how immediate, deep, even unconscious, is our intake of the visual.) It not only titillates and pleases when we should be disgusted, it creates an aesthetic excuse for what we are shown.

This resonated with the recent posts about that Shriver controversy:

But old habits are hard to break. One writer told me a funny story about network executives who always want them to justify why a character is gay, or in a wheelchair, or trans, or female or aboriginal – i.e., why isn’t this character “normal”? Ha-ha, dumb network executives – except, damn, I’ve thought that way, too. Patted myself on the back for adding “diverse” characters to a script as if they were ornaments on a Christmas tree, instead of seeing that my experience is not the default.


So it's like they go "we have a female character--what do we do with her--oh, rape her"...

165LolaWalser
Mar 28, 2017, 8:12 pm

Lots of interesting numbers in here but for now I'm just linking without comment:

It was the moment she realised how few inspiring women there are on screen. Now the actor is on a mission to fix that

Devenir membre pour poster.