Medieval Europe Message Board

As long as we can include Byzantium, I'm in! :)

Byzantium is certainly included,Tim. How could we have the Fourth Crusade without it?

I'm surprised and pleased to see that so many Thingamabrarians have joined this group in such short order. I'll be away from the computer for the next three weeks, but I look forward to seeing how much we grow in the meantime.

A hearty greeting and welcome to all.

I've just noticed that seven of our top nine shared books are by Tolkien! Are we sure we're in the right group?

I expect that our shared books will become more mediaeval as the group gets larger and we accumulate a few more copies of less common works.

If you consider the main Tolkien stories occur between the Fall of the Numenorean empire and the Gondorian Renaissance, then LOTR is a book about the Middle Ages. ;) (Sorry, I couldn't help myself...)

I have no loaded my Medieval books in yet, waiting for the creating of sub-libraries (catalogs), as I want to keep that collection separate.

Stbalbach,

Welcome to the group. I've created a sub-collection of my medieval or medieval-related books using tags. Like so:

www.librarything.com/catalog.php?tag=Medieval&view=cnb&shelf=list&sort=authorunflip

(assuming the link works). I think this is what tags are for.

I started Jewish Travellers in the Middle Ages : 19 Firsthand Accounts, edited by Elkan Nathan Adler this morning. The narratives, I think, will be interesting, but I am VERY disappointed that there are no maps.

I've never understood why people (publishers?) think you can study history without maps. Or, for that matter, decent illustrations of relevant artefacts, documents, and so on.

hey, I'm writing a book about Justinian and Theodora, does that qualify as the time zone for this group? Constantinople, 523 CE or so.

You're right, noramunro. All relevant documents should be included. It's very disappointing when they aren't. The copy I'm reading is a library book, so I may hold off reading it for now and try to find another edition. I think the original had maps.

Has anyone in this group had the opportunity to read / consult the New Cambridge Medieval History? If so, what are you views? Is it work the (not inconsiderable) expense, or are we better off buying more focussed works for specific topics and periods?

UPDATE: I've purchased the books... and I'm really enjoying them - thanks for the comments.

lbmatthews: Great to hear. What sort of book? Scholarly?

You might want to look at this site, not for scholarship but for fun. It's mine but very old.
http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/justinian/

fastred: I happen to own Volume VI. I tend to take it like I do all such works, a useful stop to get your bearings and point you in other fruitful directions, but not so good if you want to delve into something.

The Domesday Book is now searchable online at the British National Archive:
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/domesday/

Just thought some people here might be interested.

Jeremy

I had no idea this was available. Thanks Jeremy!

Loretta

I just saw that in the paper last night. I'm crushed that it wasn't done sooner! When I think of all the hours I spent in my creepy university library, wading through piles of information to find the tiny nuggets I needed....

Greetings, fellow medievalists! I'm particularly intested in the 13th century because so much was going on: 4th Crusade (1204), ministry of Albertus Magnus in Paris and Frankfurt (mid-century), persecution of Jews in Spain and the writing of the Zohar (1280's). Can you tell I'm a historian? Actually, still a student. So what part of the Middle Ages excites you, and why, group members?

Having a good Medieval historical atlas around really helps.

Hi Transmutations,

I'm really into Old English Literature (pre-1066 in England) but as for the mainland, I'm just nuts about the plague!

Cleverusername2: Can you recommend a good medieval historical atlas?
Thanks

Can you recommend best books about the plague? I have a few, and know of more I don't own and would like to, but can always use a more personal (and perhaps broader) view.

prophetandmistress and Eurydice: I haven't read much about the Plague in medieval Europe, but the subject fascinates me. One reason: all of us who are of European descent are descended from Plague survivors. And since the Black Death reoccured regularly for several centuries, several of our ancestors were survivors. So we of European descent are personally connected with that epidemic. Cool, huh?

Yep. :)

There are a couple of good books about the plague. A new one by John Kelly called The Great Mortality. An older book that summarizes a lot of the material out there: by Philip Ziegler called The Black Death.

There is also an interesting fiction book by Geraldine Brooks called The Year of Wonders about how a small English village dealt with the plague. It is based on reality, the village is studied because of who died and who didn't.

Thanks, FicusFan. I've been meaning to get Ziegler, and own the other two. Good to hear I am hitting high points, as it were. :)

The Great Mortality impressed me, but I was disappointed with much about The Year of Wonders, despite Geraldine Brooks' obvious capacities as a writer. I actually prefer Defoe's Journal of the Plague Year, but that's probably a mere matter of complicated personal taste.

Regarding non-fiction, another I've wanted is The Great Plague: the Story of London's Most Deadly Year, by A. Lloyd Moote. I know all this is a bit outside the medieval era (apologies), but have any of you read it? And, back in the proper period, does anyone have an opinion on In the Wake of the Plague: the Black Death and the World it Made?

Is In the Wake of the Plague: the Black Death and the World it Made by Norman Cantor ? If so, I didn't think a lot of it. I read it a while ago, and seem to remember it was an interesting idea, but the book was chopped up in a sense. Each chapter presents a different idea or aspect of change that the plague was resposible for. It didn't weave it all together, and some of his conclusions seemed a bit dodgy. That is all that springs to mind at the moment.

Yes, that's the one I meant; Norman Cantor's. Thank you. I bought it (cheaply, used), but haven't read it yet. Some of the material I browsed through in the appendix looked fairly odd.

Is Plagues and Peoples, by William McNeill, better? I've tried to buy it more than once, and found the copies already gone.

Apologies for the considerable plague-related talk...

In the Wake of the Plague: the Black Death and the World it made is one of my fav's on the subject. I really like the way Cantor inserted his own tone and jokes into the book rather then keeping it a more monotone history piece.
As a side note there is a pretty good children's book coming out called My Side of the Story: The Plague by Philip Wooderson. It's two children's sized novellas that deal with the same main characters but from each of their perspectives in 1665 England.

As usual, a certain disagreement makes it all the more necessary that I read the book, instead of just asking about it. Thank you to you both.

(I'll post my own reactions when I get around to reading it.)

My Side of the Story: the Plague sounds interesting. Once I've got more adult plague-related literature out of the way, I'll have to see about getting a copy. It is, anyway, safely stored on an Amazon wishlist, till then. :)

Donogh, My favourite is the "Großer Historischer Weltatlas" vol. 2 - however it's in German ;-). They may have a copy in a Dublin library somewhere ...

There are many goo maps on Anglo-Saxon history in Campell's THE ANGLO-SAXONS.

RE favourite periods, I used to have a particular preference for the 12th century (civil war/Henry and Eleanor in particular), but my interest is now broadening, first of all by starting at the other end with Wars of the Roses, then filling in some of the gaps with Alison Weir's Isabella and Ian Mortimer's Roger Mortimer.

Hello,

I have recently purchased them through Folio and am enjoying them, though I was irritated to find a typo on page 26 of volume 1. They are certainly a "one stop shop" but I cannot really call them cost effective. I just have more money than sense.

Hope this helps.

Another fictional account of the 1348 plague is Connie Willis's "The Doomsday Book". It's sort of sci-fi and historical fiction at once. I loved it. Her period detail, her characterization, was amazing.

I have "The Year of Wonders" in my TBR stack. I've got to move it further toward the top!

Eurydice , yes Plagues and Peoples is much better, though it also covers a wider topic. It has more science information about disease, the vectors, and how it spreads.

It looks at disease and how it impacted and changed people and civilizations. It was written in 1975, so there is no mention of Aids/HIV - but it is talked about in the preface written in 1997.

It looks at the Mongols and their empire and its role in the spread of disease. It looks at disease and the impact of it on Native Americans when Europeans came. It talks about civilization as a breeding ground for disease, and looks at early outbreaks in Eurasia (500 BC) to the black death in Europe.

It's rare to find a history book with enough maps, or maps that actually cover the topic adequately! That's a pet peeve of mine.

Can anyone recommend a good book on late medieval Italy? I just finished Fire in the City: Savonarola and the Struggle for the Soul of Renaissance Florence by Lauro Martines (excellent, and very interesting), and I'd like to delve into the development and history of Italian city states from the medieval period into the Renaissance. Thanks!

The only general history on the city state I can recommend is Clarke's (1926) The Medieval City State: an essay on tyranny and federation in the later Middle Ages
Everything else I've seen is much more specific.

I always love approaching medieval history through the primary sources. They give such insight into the mentality of those involved, although they often cannot be read alone, without some sort of secondary explanation. The chronicle of Dino Compagni is a fascinating account of the turbulence in Florence in the 14th century, while The Life of Cola di Rienzo covers Rome ca. 1348-50. Cola was a mighty peculiar character who came to a bad end.

One of the most prominent historians of late medieval Italian history is Samuel K. Cohn, Jr. Most other histories focus upon the art but Cohn looks instead at the political turmoil that characterized the Italian city states. While I don't necessarily agree with all his conclusions about the Black Death in Italy, he is a fine scholar.

Amy Welborn recently reviewed Cities of God: The Religion of the Italian Communes 1125-1325

Here's the review Review of Cities of God

According to her blog, she's also reading Fire in the City: Savonarola and the Struggle for the Soul of Renaissance Florence.

Thank you for the suggestions! I'm looking forward to reading them.

Noticed a few books for this subject on Oxbow's catalogue, with blurbs...

The Towns of Italy in the Later Middle Ages by Trevor Dean
More than one hundred documents providing evidence or comment on urban life in Italy are presented here in English translation. The documents range from chronicles, to statute-laws, from records of trials, taxation, contracts, to poetry and stories and individual letters and diaries. These are inter-linked through five central themes: the physical environment, civic religion, economy, society and politics. 252p
(Manchester UP 2000)

City and Countryside in Late Medieval and Renaissance Italy by Trevor Dean and Chris Wickham
Brings together challenging new articles on
this complex and fascinating period of Italy’s history.
224p (Hambledon 1990)

The Discarded Image: An Introduction to Medieval and Renaissance Literature by C.S. Lewis offers wonderful background about medieval thought--what Lewis calls "the Model"--(we would use a phrase like "world view" today).

It's unfortunate that Lewis is remembered today almost exclusively for his Christian apologetics. His literary criticism and scholarship include many learned, thoughtful, and lucid accounts of the literature and history of pre-Renaissance Europe.

Of Lewis's work in this area I also recommend:

The Allegory of Love; A Study in Medieval Tradition and Studies in Medieval and Renaissance Literature.

Renaissance thought and its sources by Paul Oskar Kristeller is tougher going, but it provides much useful background.

BruceAir said "It's unfortunate that Lewis is remembered today almost exclusively for his Christian apologetics. His literary criticism and scholarship include many learned, thoughtful, and lucid accounts of the literature and history of pre-Renaissance Europe."
Lewis was a great man and one of the best minds of his century. I respect most of his works The allegory of love; a study in medieval tradition is wonderful for it's time. But I wouldn't characterize his apologetics or even his fiction as unfortunate they stand as well as any in their fields. I have yet to find a C.S. Lewis book that I didnt admire.

I'm starting grad school in two weeks and will take a class on the medieval antecedants of the Renaissance. One of the books we'll be reading is The Decameron by Giovanni Boccaccio .

What's your favorite tale, Group Members, in this collection of 100 stories?

-- Robertus Minimus at Transmutations

Oh, how can you choose? There are some real peaches... I rather like the very first story - a perfect tale of Christian credulity. 3/1 is funny too: a young man & some lusty nuns. Other favorites include 4/10, 6/2, 7/2, 7/5, 8/6 and 9/2. Enjoy!

I read this book because of my Travel Lit obsession. However, some of you might be interested in a modern-day search for the truth about an apochyrphal knight: The Riddle and the Knight by Giles Milton.

Just finished A Quiet Light by Louis de Wohl. I not only liked the detail in this historical novel, but I also appreciated that it was written in the form of a romance.

Fred

Guernicus, thanks for citing your favorite tales in Boccaccio's Decameron. My favorite (1/3) is about the wise Jewish man who outwits Saladin with his Tale of Three Rings.

Anyone else have a favorite story from that collection to share?

-- Robertus Minimus at Transmutations

I just finished a few books on this topic.

The best one was Jack Weatherford's Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, it's well written, a good read and fascinating. It's a bit of medieval history that I've never gotten in my studies of European and Russian history.

Another one is Thomas Cahill's Mysteries of the Middle Ages : the rise of feminism, science, and art from the cults of Catholic Europe. I have to say the blurb and even the title is a bit misleading, and the quality is uneven, but it's fascinating stuff, especially the first part of the book, and there are beautiful illustrations.

Finally, there is The burning times : a novel of medieval France by Jeanne Kalogridis. This is by no means high literature, but it's a good story and a quick read for those who need a break from heavier or more academic stuff.

I would recommend Thomas Costain's The Magnificent Century and Daily Life in the Middle Ages by Paul B. Newman.

Cantor's side comments actually irritated me a bit as I was reading In the Wake of the Plague: the Black Death and the World it Made It seemed like every two seconds he was back to how much a monster he thought King Edward (forgot which one, sorry) was. I thought it would be better if he kept his personal opinions out. And he jumped around on tangents far too much to really get a handle on what was going on.

Greetings, fellow Medievalists! I've survived my first semester of grad school so I'm ready (and have time) to discuss books & topics about the Middle Ages again.

Just started a short book, The Black Death and the Transformation of the West by David Herlihy (1997). The introduction by Samuel K. Cohn, Jr. is an excellent review of books & articles written in the '80s and '90s about different theories identifying the Plague, how European society changed regarding population, increased their value of family life, and influenced clergymen (at least, in England) to serve their flocks more conscientiously. This historiographical review is worth reading -- not only for it's intriguing information -- but because it sets a foundation for later monographs written in the last 10 years.

Hello all. I am new to LT, and still cataloging books, so I'm feeling my way around. While my primary interest is the Mediterranean basin and that interesting combo of Xtns, Muslims, Jews, pagans, I have strong interests in England from the medieval to E Modern. Would I be within your parameters?
Beauregard

Welcome, Beauregard. Although I didn't start this group, I feel pretty comfortable saying if you find the posts interesting and you feel like joining the discussion, then you belong here!

I agree about the maps. I always have historical atlases around. My favorite is The Penguin Atlas of World History Volume 1 by Hermann Kinder and Werner Helgemann. I got my first copy when I was in seminary in the 1970s. It fell apart so I had to replace it.

What does anyone think about Galileo's Daughter? I've had it on my TBR pile for a while.

Granted, I read it way back in 2001, but I don't think it went much into "history". It stuck mostly to biography, even if it's the historical kind.

That said, I thought it presented an interesting way of looking at Galileo's life.

It's been a while since I read Galileo's Daughter, but I was pretty disappointed. It was interesting, but not at all what I was expecting. It really had hardly anything at all to say about Galileo's daughter, because we really just don't know much about her. I think I would have liked the book more had I been expecting a book about Galileo instead of a book about his daughter....

#3cnb: Tolkien is on just about everyone's list, isn't he? They even have Tolkien sessions(yes, plural) each year at the International Congress of Medieval Studies in Kalamazoo 8-)

#52 darkmoon and others reading Cantor: his personal opinions do affect his writing, so it's best not to accept everything he says as gospel. He knows whereof he writes, but he's pretty opinionated, too.

The Reformation by Diarmaid MacCulloch is a terrific, thorough review of the end of the period (it begins in 1490) and the beginning of the Renaissance.

Swedes excavate an early king who met with assasination. http://www.newser.com/story/185813/scientists-pry-open-coffin-of-king-murdered-i...

"Scientists plan to study the bones of the ruler known as King Erik the Holy because so little is known about him."

Do they want to study his bones because so little is known about him, or is he called King Erik the Holy because so little is known about him?

Both.

What is the best book on the witch craze? I have always thought this was and have affixed my comments thereon:

2025 Servants of Satan: The Age of the Witch Hunter, by Joseph Klaits (read 11 Oct 1986) I suspect this is the best book around on the matter of witch hunts. It is a 1985 book by an associate professor of history at Oakland Universality which considers the general course and significance of the witch hunts of the 16th and 17th centuries. My interest in witch trials is basically due to my knowledge of my nine-times-great-grandmother's experience in the late 1500's. This book tries to determine why the witch trials happened and why they ceased. It is an excellent book. In the introduction the author says: "The bleak terrain of the witch trials is both forbidding and depressing. Their vast scale must daunt any writer who hopes to explain the dynamics and significance of witch hunting, while the story of the trials also is bound to provoke discouraging conclusions about the human potential for inhumanity. Yet the witch craze's prominence in the history of the period necessitates the broadest possible treatment, not only chronologically and spatially but also conceptually. Our current knowledge of political institutions, social structure, and patterns of thought should be brought to bear when placing witch hunts in their historical context." The book succeeds admirably in carrying out the announced aim.

I would like to hear other suggestions.

>66 Schmerguls:

I dunno if I'd call it the best - I haven't read enough on the subject to make such calls really - but I thought Cohn's Europe's Inner Demons was good.